HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #21  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2017, 9:01 PM
le calmar's Avatar
le calmar le calmar is online now
613er
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 3,007
It's not uncommon that people in Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire will talk to me in French if they overhear me speaking French or notice my French accent. It is mostly older people, but it happened with a few people in their 20's or 30's as well. You can usually tell that the younger folks struggle more with the language but they can still handle a basic conversation.
__________________
My flickr
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #22  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2017, 9:30 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,609
This ad wouldn't fly in New England (Newt Gingrich ran this ad in South Carolina):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuzu6iS036Q
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #23  
Old Posted Oct 10, 2017, 11:17 PM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Louisiana for all the talk about French down there is actually not that French (francophone) any more.
It seems like French influence is really heavy overplayed in Louisiana, based on the way it's portrayed. For example having a history of Catholicism influencing the state's organization into parishes and a legal system that is unlike the rest of the US, I would have almost expected a "parallel society" that was Quebec style.

There are lots of people that really do expect New Orleans to be like Montreal or even Quebec City. Instead you walk around and just hear everyone speak English, no less than any other American big city.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #24  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 1:38 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
I used to be THAT guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 29,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
There are a few communities near the Canadian border in Maine where majorities still speak French, and 15.7% in Aroostook County speak French at home.

https://statisticalatlas.com/state/Maine/Languages
The southern part of the county is more populated and heavily Anglo, so the northern parts are much more French than 15 percent. At Van Buren and beyond most towns are 50 percent and sometimes quite a bit more.

Ever watch American Loggers on Discovery channel? The Pelletier family business is based in Millinocket which is further south but they are originally from Ft Kent in the north. Check out their accents!
__________________
Va où il y a des livres. - Robert Sabatier
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #25  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 1:46 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
I used to be THAT guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 29,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
It seems like French influence is really heavy overplayed in Louisiana, based on the way it's portrayed. For example having a history of Catholicism influencing the state's organization into parishes and a legal system that is unlike the rest of the US, I would have almost expected a "parallel society" that was Quebec style.

There are lots of people that really do expect New Orleans to be like Montreal or even Quebec City. Instead you walk around and just hear everyone speak English, no less than any other American big city.
There are basically no French speakers in NOLA other than maybe a few people from France and Quebec who work in the restaurant industry.

But if you go an hour or two west to Cajun bayou country around Lafayette there are some. Apparently Lafayette is 15 percent francophone but it didn't seem like there were that many when I was there. But I did meet a few. Some smaller towns around Lafayette are around one third francophone.
__________________
Va où il y a des livres. - Robert Sabatier
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #26  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 1:56 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
I used to be THAT guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 29,186
Interestingly enough, Radio-Canada just promoed an interview with Zachary Richard on their program Entrée principale to air tomorrow. Richard is from Lafayette. He is a huge star in Quebec.
__________________
Va où il y a des livres. - Robert Sabatier
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #27  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 2:02 AM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
There are basically no French speakers in NOLA other than maybe a few people from France and Quebec who work in the restaurant industry.

But if you go an hour or two west to Cajun bayou country around Lafayette there are some. Apparently Lafayette is 15 percent francophone but it didn't seem like there were that many when I was there. But I did meet a few. Some smaller towns around Lafayette are around one third francophone.
Was there any explicit policy to forcibly assimilate French-speakers in Louisiana, or was it just that economical decision to speak English to integrate into the rest of the US lead to assimilation the way that "immigrants" do, despite Cajuns/Creoles pre-dating the Anglos, and thus it would be them assimilating to the newcomers, not vice versa.

I'm wondering if the Anglo domination of Montreal in the past was ever analogous to what happened to New Orleans. Is the status of French in NOLA basically the logical outcome of the path that Montreal might have taken had the changes of the 1960s not happened?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #28  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 2:04 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Lévis, QC
Posts: 16,397
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
There are basically no French speakers in NOLA other than maybe a few people from France and Quebec who work in the restaurant industry.

But if you go an hour or two west to Cajun bayou country around Lafayette there are some. Apparently Lafayette is 15 percent francophone but it didn't seem like there were that many when I was there. But I did meet a few. Some smaller towns around Lafayette are around one third francophone.
I passed there in 2004 or early 2005 (not sure exactly but before Katrina). We stayed at the home of a girl from Lafayette who had studied at Bishop's in Sherbrooke/Lennoxville (that's why we knew her). I looked for francophones specifically and managed to find a few old ones I could have a chat with. I'm glad I did, as they're likely all dead now. I would be curious to try to repeat the experience someday, see what I'd find nowadays.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #29  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 2:08 AM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 317
Do newcomers (either transplants or immigrants) moving to small towns in Louisiana ever learn French or pick it up to fit in?

Or is French passed on from generation to generation only from parents to children, if much at all, and seen as a private, household language rather than a public one?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #30  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 2:17 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
I used to be THAT guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 29,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Do newcomers (either transplants or immigrants) moving to small towns in Louisiana ever learn French or pick it up to fit in?

Or is French passed on from generation to generation only from parents to children, if much at all, and seen as a private, household language rather than a public one?
My guess is that newcomers to Louisiana haven't learned French in 100 years or more.

French hasn't even been passed down in most French Acadian families in Louisiana.

They are trying to bring it back modestly but most families have a two or three generation gap in French speakers. So the grandparents or great-parents were francophones, then the next couple of generations knew almost none, and now they are trying to teach it to kids.

Zachary Richard is not alone but he is fairly exceptional.
__________________
Va où il y a des livres. - Robert Sabatier
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #31  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 2:20 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
I used to be THAT guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 29,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Was there any explicit policy to forcibly assimilate French-speakers in Louisiana, or was it just that economical decision to speak English to integrate into the rest of the US lead to assimilation the way that "immigrants" do, despite Cajuns/Creoles pre-dating the Anglos, and thus it would be them assimilating to the newcomers, not vice versa.

I'm wondering if the Anglo domination of Montreal in the past was ever analogous to what happened to New Orleans. Is the status of French in NOLA basically the logical outcome of the path that Montreal might have taken had the changes of the 1960s not happened?
Yes, there was active suppression of French in Louisiana, like there was in all of Canada's provinces except Quebec at one point. It was a major factor in the decline of French but not the only one.

While the situation was frustrating for francophones in Quebec, there never was anything of that nature in this province. In terms of the status and prospects of French, it was more of a slow but steady erosion that was taking place.
__________________
Va où il y a des livres. - Robert Sabatier
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #32  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 2:27 AM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
My guess is that newcomers to Louisiana haven't learned French in 100 years or more.

French hasn't even been passed down in most French Acadian families in Louisiana.

They are trying to bring it back modestly but most families have a two or three generation gap in French speakers. So the grandparents or great-parents were francophones, then the next couple of generations knew almost none, and now they are trying to teach it to kids.

Zachary Richard is not alone but he is fairly exceptional.
That's a shame. If families themselves won't carry the language forward, let alone non-family newcomers, then the prospects for the language are gloomy.

I know in some cases, local minority languages can actually thrive if passing on the language happens through either family or by newcomers. I remember reading about situations where local or regional but non-dominant languages are surviving through being picked up by immigrants seeing it as something to assimilate to in order to be a part of the society (eg. say, Welsh in Wales if picked up by immigrants). But I don't know if they are part of a trend or just rare cases. In some cases, you could even have an immigrant assimilate to the less dominant language, or even the culture and region as a whole and fiercely fight for it (for example, Francophone immigrants voting for the Bloc Quebecois, or even an immigrant to Scotland speaking Gaelic and supporting Scottish nationalists), but I don't know how common that is (it definitely is striking if noticed though, and sometimes talked about in the media).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #33  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 2:33 AM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
I used to be THAT guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 29,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
That's a shame. If families themselves won't carry the language forward, let alone non-family newcomers, then the prospects for the language are gloomy.

I know in some cases, local minority languages can actually thrive if passing on the language happens through either family or by newcomers. I remember reading about situations where local or regional but non-dominant languages are surviving through being picked up by immigrants seeing it as something to assimilate to in order to be a part of the society (eg. say, Welsh in Wales if picked up by immigrants). But I don't know if they are part of a trend or just rare cases. In some cases, you could even have an immigrant assimilate to the less dominant language, or even the culture and region as a whole and fiercely fight for it (for example, Francophone immigrants voting for the Bloc Quebecois, or even an immigrant to Scotland speaking Gaelic and supporting Scottish nationalists), but I don't know how common that is (it definitely is striking if noticed though, and sometimes talked about in the media).
Well, that was a big part of the impetus behind Bill 101 in Quebec, especially the provisions on schooling for immigrant kids. By and large, it has worked.
__________________
Va où il y a des livres. - Robert Sabatier
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #34  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 2:56 AM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Well, that was a big part of the impetus behind Bill 101 in Quebec, especially the provisions on schooling for immigrant kids. By and large, it has worked.
Quebec seems to be on the word stage, a successful example in turning the tide against assimilation in the opposite direction (with institutional backing) in a way that many other formerly dominant (on at least a regional, if not national level) but now marginalized regional groups didn't. Having even Anglos themselves in one's midst "assimilate to your culture" is no easy chore considering how eager the rest of the world is eager to lap up Anglo-American culture.

Cajun French hasn't been revitalized by immigration, and I'm not sure about say Scottish Gaelic, or even regional languages in Europe (eg. do immigrants to Catalonia assimilate to Catalan identity). Not sure about say New Mexico Spanish either.

It's tricky too, because some more regional identities may feel threatened by newcomers, and see newcomers, such as immigrants or migrants from the other society as furthering their own loss of regional identity. Quebec again, seems to have done a good job in saying we'll build more of "us" through newcomers assimilating to "us" rather than assimilating to "them", even if "they" (the Anglo-Canadian, which in turn is linked to Anglo-American dominant western culture) are the ones more attractive to assimilate to by virtue of their economic or political clout. I don't know if other places can be as successful in this way.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #35  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 3:09 AM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 317
I must say, I do like the idea of marginalized languages coming back and turning the tide against the forces of assimilation. It's a very romantic image, but I think in many cases rather impractical.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #36  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 3:12 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is online now
I used to be THAT guy
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vieux Canada
Posts: 29,186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
Quebec seems to be on the word stage, a successful example in turning the tide against assimilation in the opposite direction (with institutional backing) in a way that many other formerly dominant (on at least a regional, if not national level) but now marginalized regional groups didn't. Having even Anglos themselves in one's midst "assimilate to your culture" is no easy chore considering how eager the rest of the world is eager to lap up Anglo-American culture.

.
Well, most anglos in Quebec haven't "assimilated" to francophone culture but most of them do speak French and are functional within it. I've heard it said before that the anglo community in Quebec is the only sizeable homegrown anglophone population in the world that has "majoritarily" (majoritairement) learned to speak a second language.

Everywhere else in the world anglos either live as the dominant majority (de facto or de jure) or as a small dominant élite that can basically live obliviously to the teeming masses of "others".

In the latter case, whenever that status gets threatened, the anglo reaction is simply to pack up and leave. Which is perfectly understandable - there are tons of awesome places around the world to choose from to live happily as an anglo. They've built a disproportionate share of the world's most successful societies.

While some of them kind of did follow that urge in Quebec, by the usual standard a pretty huge lot of them stayed.

It's one of things that I find makes Quebec a fascinating sociological laboratory.
__________________
Va où il y a des livres. - Robert Sabatier
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #37  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 3:50 PM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Well, most anglos in Quebec haven't "assimilated" to francophone culture but most of them do speak French and are functional within it. I've heard it said before that the anglo community in Quebec is the only sizeable homegrown anglophone population in the world that has "majoritarily" (majoritairement) learned to speak a second language.
Occasionally you hear claims that Anglos in American cities and states with lots of Hispanics, such as Miami, themselves voluntarily learn Spanish to function in said communities, but I am doubtful that it is the case that the majority of Anglos in Hispanic neighborhoods know Spanish well enough to talk to the locals on a regular basis at a natural, conversational level.

I don't think the average Anglo in these places has a level of fluency or education in Spanish much more than the average resident of Anglo-Canada does with their school-learned French, even if they did extended classes or French immersion in their youth, and then later lived and functioned in a fully Anglo society.

I think it's more like "I took Spanish in high school to fill a requirement" or "My Hispanic/Latino friends taught me the few basic words and phrases needed to talk to their grandma when I went over to their house" kind of thing, or "I hear Spanish spoken all the time on the street, in crowds and on the bus and they may outnumber English conversations there" when Americans sometimes overplay the idea of or talk about Spanish "dominance" regionally.

Wouldn't you say that really strong, powerful, institutional backing (or governmental support) is necessarily to maintain a Quebec-like situation, and often that is not enough (for example, see Ireland and Irish)? Cultural influence alone, without legal/institutional support cannot likely produce a second language rising, or returning to dominance this way (or at least there's no examples of it).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #38  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 3:54 PM
harls's Avatar
harls harls is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aylmer, Québec
Posts: 16,474
Capsicum is the anti-Fatty McButterpants.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #39  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 3:59 PM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I've heard it said before that the anglo community in Quebec is the only sizeable homegrown anglophone population in the world that has "majoritarily" (majoritairement) learned to speak a second language.
Thinking about it, perhaps the other example I can think of, besides Quebec is the case of English-speaking American Jews, and their descendants using Hebrew in Israel, depending on what you consider a "homegrown anglophone population".
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #40  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2017, 4:04 PM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by harls View Post
Capsicum is the anti-Fatty McButterpants.
Who?
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 6:45 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.