Gore Park

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by craftbeerdad

It would be fantastic to leave all the John A's in their current vandalized state, maybe place them in a museum in Ottawa or wherever and having learning embedded through technology to educate visitors about the development of the residential school system and it's impact.

I don't know where the best site would be... there's an argument for Ottawa given all the museums that are already there, but an argument against it too given that it is the place where many of the poor decisions regarding Indigenous peoples were made (maybe that doesn't matter; they were made by politicians from across the country)

Winnipeg's Canadian Museum for Human Rights is a natural fit.

Or maybe each province should have their own -- provide the overview about the national issues, with more stories focused on the respective provincial histories.

If these statues largely end up in crates in warehouses, or some forgotten corners of civic buildings, then a huge opportunity will be missed. I am going to wager our city council will vote for something just like that, so they won't have to deal with the issue again (despite the city's Urban Indigenous Strategy)

[TheHonestMaple]

I understand why these people wanted it down, but that's the wrong way. If they didn't like councils decision to leave it up for now, they should have reached out using the proper channels.

I hope these vandals are arrested and charged to be honest, especially the one who damaged the face with an angle grinder.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

I understand why these people wanted it down, but that's the wrong way. If they didn't like councils decision to leave it up for now, they should have reached out using the proper channels.

I think part of their point is they've tried, through proper channels, but city council hasn't listened or taken action even just temporarily until further discussion and decision-making can happen.

[ScreamingViking]

It's now in storage at an unspecified location.

https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilto...ld-statue.html

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

I think part of their point is they've tried, through proper channels, but city council hasn't listened or taken action even just temporarily until further discussion and decision-making can happen.

Well in my opinion than that is the city's response, and these protestors should respect that. Taking it down on their own is not ok, and defacing it with hammers and angle grinders is way too far.

Hamilton Police have stated there are 4 individuals that they are currently searching far and will be laying charges.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Judging historical figures (or anyone) ONLY by their errors or faults is just the sort of thing one would expect from a bunch of hysterical activists. That we accept their interpretations of the world is evidence of a major flaw in our ability to think and reason and will lead us to ruin.

Can anyone possibly imagine what it must have been like to lead a collection of disparate colonies through that tumultuous period? Protestants and Catholics. English and French. European and Indigenous. Atlantic and Pacific. A railway that stretches across one of the largest landmasses on the planet. Constant sabre-rattling from south of the border. A simple task that anyone could do, is that correct? I suspect, as is so often the case, that the majority of these activists can barely muster a single, coherent thought on any subject let alone lead a nation. Yes, he made mistakes. Terrible ones. But he was born in 1815 for God's sake! He didn't grow up in touchy feely post-modern Dundas Ontario where everyone has been trained to be 'nice' and everywhere is peaceful and park-like.

There is a discussion to be had about the MacDonalds and Dundases of the world, there's no doubt about that. I taught history for a time and I can tell you these complexities are well represented in our curriculum. We used to be able to discuss the good and bad in people; publicly that no longer seems to be the case and that makes me very, very nervous about our future.

Those who support these sorts of actions should ask themselves where it leads. Not to green pastures filled with wildflowers and laughing children, I can tell you that. When we're not looking, the mob will turn on us because that's what mobs do because that's what history teaches us.

[catcher_of_cats]

This is a planning/development, etc forum. Please posters, leave your politics at the door.

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by catcher_of_cats

This is a planning/development, etc forum. Please posters, leave your politics at the door.

I mean it's woke politics that have literally destroyed a public park in our city. I think it's important that it be made known that not everyone agrees with this type of nonsense vandalism.

It's an important topic that needs to be discussed in this forum, since it is directly impacting planning/development in a negative way. Don't stifle discussion because it doesn't agree with your politics.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

I mean it's woke politics that have literally destroyed a public park in our city. I think it's important that it be made known that not everyone agrees with this type of nonsense vandalism.

It's an important topic that needs to be discussed in this forum, since it is directly impacting planning/development in a negative way. Don't stifle discussion because it doesn't agree with your politics.

True. I do believe the city could have handled this much better and nipped the dissent in the bud, but this act was on the extreme side and while mob rule probably played a part in it, the ropes, hammers, and angle grinder suggest premeditation (I don't know of anyone who carries those around on a daily basis unless they're a contractor, and they usually keep them locked in a truck until needed).

And what Dr A. wrote is true as well.

Queen Victoria's statue could be next for all we know. As our monarch for the latter 2/3 or so of the 1800s, this began under her watch. And during her reign the British Empire grew more vast, affecting Indigenous people across the globe. More pointedly, as Supreme Governor of the Church of England was she actually complicit, given that the Anglican Church played a role operating the residential school system?
[EDIT: To be clear, I don't believe it should be taken that far. But I can see how the argument might be made]

On it goes. It's a slippery slope.

I don't begrudge the First Nations people for being upset that Canadian governments do not seem to be listening, and that this has been the case for a long time. But when people start taking things into their own hands, the results are often bad.

[matt602]

Originally Posted by TheHonestMaple

I mean it's woke politics that have literally destroyed a public park in our city. I think it's important that it be made known that not everyone agrees with this type of nonsense vandalism.

[/I].

could you amp up the drama a bit more? its gone and the park is still a great public space. nobody is gonna miss johnny uncle drunkard. now we can actually put something useful in the statue's place, like a drinking fountain.

[craftbeerdad]

Originally Posted by matt602

could you amp up the drama a bit more? its gone and the park is still a great public space. nobody is gonna miss johnny uncle drunkard. now we can actually put something useful in the statue's place, like a drinking fountain.

Better be a hands free water fountain, not enough of those in the city, great location for one!

[TheHonestMaple]

.

[ScreamingViking]

How about simply planting/transplanting a nice tree, one that will be subject neither to the ravages of invasive insects nor those of disgruntled folk?

Move the cannons to Dundurn or Battlefield Park or something... maybe a parkette along Cannon Street. Without a centre-piece, they are out of place.

[StEC]

The park is not destroyed, a statue is gone that is all.

You've said your piece @TheHonestMaple clearly we know where you stand like @matt602 alluded to there is no need to create drama or rant in circles this is not reddit.

[TheHonestMaple]

Originally Posted by StEC

The park is not destroyed, a statue is gone that is all.

You've said your piece @TheHonestMaple clearly we know where you stand like @matt602 alluded to there is no need to create drama or rant in circles this is not reddit.

I more just take issue with how it was taken down, not the fact that it was taken down. Should have gone through the proper channels (which I believe it did, and the city chose to keep it in place for now).

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by Dr Awesomesauce

Judging historical figures (or anyone) ONLY by their errors or faults is just the sort of thing one would expect from a bunch of hysterical activists. That we accept their interpretations of the world is evidence of a major flaw in our ability to think and reason and will lead us to ruin.

Can anyone possibly imagine what it must have been like to lead a collection of disparate colonies through that tumultuous period? Protestants and Catholics. English and French. European and Indigenous. Atlantic and Pacific. A railway that stretches across one of the largest landmasses on the planet. Constant sabre-rattling from south of the border. A simple task that anyone could do, is that correct? I suspect, as is so often the case, that the majority of these activists can barely muster a single, coherent thought on any subject let alone lead a nation. Yes, he made mistakes. Terrible ones. But he was born in 1815 for God's sake! He didn't grow up in touchy feely post-modern Dundas Ontario where everyone has been trained to be 'nice' and everywhere is peaceful and park-like.

There is a discussion to be had about the MacDonalds and Dundases of the world, there's no doubt about that. I taught history for a time and I can tell you these complexities are well represented in our curriculum. We used to be able to discuss the good and bad in people; publicly that no longer seems to be the case and that makes me very, very nervous about our future.

Those who support these sorts of actions should ask themselves where it leads. Not to green pastures filled with wildflowers and laughing children, I can tell you that. When we're not looking, the mob will turn on us because that's what mobs do because that's what history teaches us.

We used to ignore the harm people like MacDonald did with their white supremacist genocidal strategies because our society was dominated by white Canadians who had benefited. As our nation gets more diverse, and the people who's grandparents or great grandparents were victims of the horrors they presided over, or even engineered in the case of folks like MacDonald, it's not a surprise that the view of the public will turn against them.

And it's not like his contemporaries were blind to his corruption, fondness of the Confederacy, and acts of genocide. Just enough of them were racist enough they saw little wrong with trying to wipe out whole cultures in the name of Canada's 'Aryan heritage'.

The fact we're not brushing crimes against humanity under the rug any more just because the perpetrators helped ensure the word 'Canada' could be written on a bigger font on a map of the world is a good thing. It shows we're rising above petty ethnocentric nationalism and starting to see all humans as equal.