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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 4:48 PM
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Off the Rails: SFU Professor trashes Vancouver in Vancouver Magazine article

Off the Rails
What’s wrong with our city? Plenty, says SFU’s Anthony Perl, starting with our ass-backwards transportation plan

By John Burns published Mar 26, 2009, Vancouver Magazine

What’s wrong with our city? Plenty, says SFU’s Anthony Perl, starting with our ass-backwards transportation plan

If “sustainability” was the buzzword of the 2000s, “peak oil” may define the coming decade. The notion that global petroleum reserves are nearing depletion has divided the academic world and the energy industries, with skeptics dismissing the notion even as pessimists assert that resource decline is already under way. Anthony Perl, director of SFU’s urban-studies program, argues in his new book, Transport Revolutions: Moving People and Freight Without Oil, that we’re moving inexorably toward life after oil. A New Yorker, Perl began his academic career in the renowned government program at Harvard University (“during the patchy years,” he says wryly), then studied public administration and political science at the University of Toronto. His research interests touch on transportation, city planning, and the environment, subjects on which he’s persuasively outspoken. Perl recently turned his attention to his adopted hometown and its troubled relationship with transportation, education, and self-esteem.

Q: You’ve been here for three years now. As a student of cities, how does Vancouver strike you?

A: It seems like Toronto in the ’80s, especially the “world-class” stuff. When people there started saying “world-class,” alarms should have been going off in city planning and governance minds. They thought they’d invented the answer; if something was done in Toronto, it must be successful. We risk that here in Vancouver—our megaproject mania for highways, SkyTrains to UBC, stuff like that.

Q: The Olympics drive much of this monumentalism. What do you see as the legacy of 2010?

A: As well as security, there’s a broader crypto-fascistic tendency of the Olympics to manage whatever society they’re in and to have everyone stand and cheer at the same time. Now, you can do that in a city of less than a million, and Winter Games cities tend to not be cities, really. Vancouver will be the first Winter Olympics city with well over a million people, and that will have some consequences. If a thousand people decide to march from the Downtown Eastside to the broadcast centre, well, they may only get to within a block or two, but they will be noticed.

Q: When the world comes, what else will they notice?

A: Let’s start at the airport. What we show people there is an embalmed version of B.C. nature and culture. You have fake water, fake bird noises—it’s like being in a mausoleum.

Even the smell is like embalming fluid. It’s different from other airports, where you’re fed through a chute like cattle, so maybe that has some benefit—it certainly shocks you. In any transportation terminal, the question that’s asked most is, “Where’s the washroom?” At YVR, you get a fake rain forest with running water, which, if you’re going to wet your pants after being on a flight for 14 hours, is even more challenging.

We’re trying to present a version of ourselves, but it speaks to an insecurity: we have to tell them, we have to show them the Raven, we have to have the water and the canoe, to make sure people get it. But the reality is that given the nature of air transportation and the sealed environments that are required, where they have to get you through Customs and figure out who to Taser and who not to, it can’t be a real representation. In the great European cities, you walk into St. Pancras Station in London or Gare du Nord in Paris and you get it a lot quicker because it’s a real environment: you can stop at the champagne bar or go out the back door and look for the red-light district; it’s all hubbed around the station.

Q: So our airport could integrate better with the region?

A: If YVR thinks the future lies in just adding more planes, it’s living in a fantasy world. Its one saviour—the only one if they want to be the air gateway to Asia—is that I see airplanes becoming bigger, more fuel-efficient, and less frequent. That means that instead of three flights a day to Tokyo from Portland, Vancouver, and Seattle, there’s going to be one, maybe run by two or three different airlines.

And if there’s only one airport in the Northwest that’s a gateway to Asia, the only edge we have over Seattle is that every mile you can go on the ground with an electric train uses zero oil, and this is the closest place where you can drop an aircraft down from the trans-Pacific routes and stop burning the huge amounts of fuel that are going through those turbines. So you might be able to make the case of landing the plane here and walking downstairs to a high-speed train—an hour to Seattle, another hour to Portland. Otherwise, we’re going to be heading south to get to China or Hong Kong.

Q: You sit on the board of VIA Rail Canada. You’re obviously a proponent of train use. How well do we do rail?

A: If we want to get serious about being connected to the rest of the world, we’ll have to broaden the ways to get to and from here, which means looking seriously at trains. You’d be looking at up to 20 trains between here and Seattle, with 15 of them going to Portland and probably 10 going at least as far as Eugene and five as far as Northern California. There’d probably be another five or six trains a day to Calgary. And all that is more than you can accomplish with only the three platforms at the current station. What you really need to do is take that space behind the Pacific Central Station to the east for a second station. The fact that nobody is thinking of reserving that as a transportation network is crazy, because if they do build in a Safeway or a Canadian Tire or whatever, instead of the proposed St. Paul’s relocation, it’s just going to add another five years of legal wrangling to undo it.

Also, we have to rethink the station itself. First Nations aside, by treating the train station as a kind of down-and-out skid row zone, we’re turning our back on a significant part of the Canadian/European heritage that brought people to Vancouver in the first place. There are lots of travellers whose first view of Vancouver is seeing people passed out in Thornton Park. Or they’re trying to get to a bus or the SkyTrain and they get asked for money or asked to buy something illegal. This should be the face of our city; instead we’re presenting visitors with a very different part of our anatomy.

Q: What do you think of the idea of moving St. Paul’s to that spot near the train station?

A: I was in Calgary when they blew up the general hospital. Everyone cheered. Within three or four years there was a bed shortage. Any politician who proposes reducing either education or hospital infrastructure should immediately be declared unfit for office.

Q: What aspects of our transportation system do work well?

A: The SeaBus is an unmitigated success, one of the world’s most successful water mass rapid transit vehicles. Those two boats—the Burrard Beaver and the Burrard Otter—carry the traffic a six-lane bridge or a tunnel would: 400 people per boat every 15 minutes. The landscape of Lonsdale would look very different if we hadn’t had those boats. You wouldn’t have that kind of clustered walkable development, the only one on the North Shore that I’m aware of where you can live, work, and play on foot and by bike. But there could have been two or three or four of those up and down the coast. Ambleside, Park Royal—you could have taken those and put in another SeaBus, but it didn’t happen; instead, we built up the mountains to the point where the houses fall down each time it rains. We should be running boats every five minutes across the inlet. It should be our Hong Kong harbour, with the North Shore being the Kowloon side and this the central side.

Q: You talk about walkable development. After New York we have the second-highest percentage of people who walk to work in North America. Could we be even more pedestrian-friendly?

A: Certainly. Vancouver needs a grand boulevard that is basically car-free—we haven’t given people space beyond the seawall to play and make use of, other than just to get between their car and their shop or whatever. Look at our high streets’ sidewalks. You can tell by the way the city allows all the clutter with signs and sandwich boards that they’re not designed for people to get by; they’re designed to get people from the curb, presumably from vehicles but maybe a bus stop or a bicycle parking post, into the store. They’re not designed for people to do what they do in Paris or London—to window-shop. I’m sure that on many of these streets—Davie, Denman, Robson certainly, large stretches of Broadway probably—there’s more people walking by the windows than there are driving and stopping, but the street space is still set up for perpendicular car use, not parallel walking use.

Q: How is it we never learn from these missteps?

A: Often, policy in this province is set by trial and error: if someone has learned something from someone else’s experience, find a way around them to give it to someone who has no clue what they’re getting into. Do we pick things that have a clear long-term future, or are we so insecure that we constantly go for the flavour of the month, whatever seems to be on top of everyone’s mind? Switzerland, Sweden, countries like that, they have a vision. You may or may not agree with it, but they stick with it. We, however, are still a very new society. Now, I like being in a young dynamic society, but it’s like being an adolescent: we go with fads and blow our allowance on things that it turns out we don’t like a few weeks later.

Q: What about the role of education in the city?

A: You can’t have a great city without a real, full university in its centre—I’m not taking away from UBC or SFU for trying to do things downtown, but they’re branch plants of suburban campuses. Toronto, Winnipeg, Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary—they all manage it. We need a University of Vancouver. It doesn’t have to be great, but it has to be based in the city. And we need that student population downtown. Montreal has its student ghetto on the Plateau, Toronto used to around Kensington Market, Paris has the Left Bank. It brings a dimension of life to a city that Vancouver, for all its dynamism, lacks. The nightlife, if you want to call it that, of Granville Street and Yaletown, with all its issues, is oddly truncated because students don’t live within walking distance. So what do you get? People who drive in from the suburbs to get drunk and fight with each other. A student area/university could be east of Granville, maybe with the development around Woodward’s and what’s coming in around it with SFU, or maybe the Cambie area now that they’ve put all the local businesses out of business. Or maybe, if there’s a complete housing collapse, Southeast False Creek. That would make a great campus. It’s not what it was set up for, but we could adapt it. Take out the gourmet cookware ranges and the European toilets. Put in shower stalls.
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  #2  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 5:06 PM
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^ lol....well, i do love his comment about how the North Shore should be our Kowloon. It's so true. But those damn NIMBY's....imagine the fit they would create if SeaBus went to Ambleside.
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  #3  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 5:14 PM
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Hmm, interesting article. He is certianly off the rails at points, however he does make a few good ones too.

His idea about the trains being our lifeline to getting more flights to Asia is quite weak and the logic just isn't there. He doesn't even make a case for it so much as he says we need trains to Seattle/Portland to make flights to Asia work... Planes landing here 15 minutes before they land in Seattle is not reason enough for an airline to make people take a train from Vancouver.

His criticism of the Airport is also quite suspect, YVR is rated as one of the best airports in the world time and time again, and I for one find the manufactured nature to be quite a break from the monotonous homogenized airport design seen around the world. Sure the nature is fake, but it creates a better atmosphere and really sets the airport apart... it is quite original and memorable.

Why does he assume moving St. Paul's means losing hospital beds?

And his criticism of the fickle nature of Vancouver seems to be better directed at it's residents not its politics. Vancouver's residents seem to be insecure and always jumping at the latest world class fad or clinging to utopic visions of Europe or Asia, while our civic governments seem to be almost too steadfast in their adherence to a final vision.

He does finish strong however, as his point about the need for a city university is bang on, it would add another layer to the urban fabric and dramatically increase the vibrancy of the core. I am 110% for this idea.

Oh and he clearly doesn't live on the north shore, as a seabus in Ambleside or especially Park Royal would be such a pointless venture as a bus can get downtown far faster and service far more stops along the way.
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 5:45 PM
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yes, some good points and some weird points.

i think kowloon has something like 2 million people and north and west vancouver have about 170 thousand. thats like comparing watermelons to cherries.

and trains to calgary? there must be at least 6 (?) mountain ranges between here and calgary. a decent high speed system would be nutty expensive.

Quote:
We’re trying to present a version of ourselves, but it speaks to an insecurity: we have to tell them, we have to show them the Raven, we have to have the water and the canoe, to make sure people get it. But the reality is that given the nature of air transportation and the sealed environments that are required, where they have to get you through Customs and figure out who to Taser and who not to, it can’t be a real representation. In the great European cities, you walk into St. Pancras Station in London or Gare du Nord in Paris and you get it a lot quicker because it’s a real environment: you can stop at the champagne bar or go out the back door and look for the red-light district; it’s all hubbed around the station.
wtf. this makes no sense. i do not think he get our culture. the native stuff is probably the only cultural icons that we can all agree on. paris and london have 1000's of years of unified culture and we have about 100 of very fragmented with many immigrant cultures. besides, its all about the tourists who eat that shit up.

as well, he mentions the "red light" district hub around the station which is okay in europe but in the DTES that's totally bad.

and what is this mega project mania is he talking about. these projects happen all aver the world including europe. and does he think the majority of euopeans live in paris or london? hell no.
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 5:51 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
Planes landing here 15 minutes before they land in Seattle is not reason enough for an airline to make people take a train from Vancouver.
But wouldn't it be cool? Of course, then the CBSA would want to strip search everyone entering Canada, and charge $50/person for the privilege.

Quote:
His criticism of the Airport is also quite suspect, YVR is rated as one of the best airports in the world time and time again, and I for one find the manufactured nature to be quite a break from the monotonous homogenized airport design seen around the world. Sure the nature is fake, but it creates a better atmosphere and really sets the airport apart... it is quite original and memorable.
I didn't get that either. Except that he's being cynical and I think he's poking at the "world-class" attitude and superiority complex people have. And I don't really find it all that fake. I mean, it has running water, after all... they could've painted some concrete blue. It's tastefully done.

Quote:
Why does he assume moving St. Paul's means losing hospital beds?
I think he envisions a new downtown hospital to supplement St. Paul's... as opposed to replacing it.
Quote:
He does finish strong however, as his point about the need for a city university is bang on, it would add another layer to the urban fabric and dramatically increase the vibrancy of the core. I am 110% for this idea.
It's a nice idea. Put it in some mid-rises like NYU. As for naming: "Metro Vancouver University" sounds better than University of Vancouver. Think of the abbreviated name: Van U. Or U-Van. Of course, they would probably just name it Quatchi University, or Inukshuk U... or a native name. Maybe even call it Granville University (Vancouver's old name)

Quote:
Oh and he clearly doesn't live on the north shore, as a seabus in Ambleside or especially Park Royal would be such a pointless venture as a bus can get downtown far faster and service far more stops along the way.
People forget that the Seabus is actually quite slow. It's just more direct from Lonsdale. Saying that, it would be a nice journey and a sea vessel would serve as more of a "hub"
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 7:00 PM
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thanks for positing this one. three excellent points that i'm seeing here:

1. the sidewalks in vancouver are indeed a total embarrassment. they're dinky, they're ugly and they don't serve the purposes they ought to. i've never showed an american or european around the town without suffering a remark on how oddly and almost claustrophobically miniscule the sidewalks are - imo, those need to change immediately and on every single high street.

2. a university in vancouver would be excellent. but since that's not going to happen, convincing the province to build a combined sfu/ubc law faculty, a ballet academy, the providence hospital as a combined ubc/sfu teaching hospital, etc. - these seem to be pretty good, feasible alternatives.

3. high speed rail to seattle and portland is a nice idea that would be hard to pull off. three major barriers: cost and co-ordination; long term feasibility; and passport control/frontier management. the last seems to be me to be the easiest to resolve: in 10 years, the nexus system will seem like a vhs cassette, we'll just walk through customs with automatic scanning of passports, like the grocery shops where you consult a security agent only when there's something wrong, or when you need to pay duty or whatever. the rest is possible but tough. plus, one suspects that the net effect of such a link would be less positive for the vanadian side. now, if the entire line were owned and operated by via rail, that might have a nice mitigatory effect. ;0

Last edited by flight_from_kamakura; Apr 7, 2009 at 7:10 PM.
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 7:01 PM
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Having read the article, I really don't have a problem with anything he says. I don't necessarily agree on the points he makes, but I like that he offered what seem to be genuinely honest personal opinions and observations.

It's rather refreshing since a lot of what passes as interviews these days are simply well-scripted talking points in support of whatever the party line is at the time. "Vancouver needs 'x'! Our new plan will mean 'a' 'b' and 'c'" In the end, I might as well be reading an advertisement.

I see interviews like this one here sort of like public brainstorming, in which someone who has a background upon which to have an opinion tosses out their ideas for public consumption. I think his point about potential short-sightedness in not preserving rail corridors is particularly interesting.

I wouldn't expect an interview like this would lead to a change in interior design at YVR, or lead the transit authority to change the routes of watercraft across Burrard Inlet overnight. But when ideas like this are allowed to be part of the discussion, it may lead to better, more comprehensive decisions down the road.

I worry more about group-think in the planning for Vancouver than I do about wacky ideas mucking things up, at least at this point in time. City planning is not a straight-line plan. Ask the folks who created the incredible efficiencies of how Manhattan was developed yet still were forced - quite reluctantly - into not bulldozing neighborhoods like Little Italy and Greenwich Village.

Vigorous debate of ideas is not a bad thing.
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 8:20 PM
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I agree with a lot of what he says, but some of it is just nuts. Like this, for example:

Quote:
We’re trying to present a version of ourselves, but it speaks to an insecurity: we have to tell them, we have to show them the Raven, we have to have the water and the canoe, to make sure people get it. But the reality is that given the nature of air transportation and the sealed environments that are required, where they have to get you through Customs and figure out who to Taser and who not to, it can’t be a real representation. In the great European cities, you walk into St. Pancras Station in London or Gare du Nord in Paris and you get it a lot quicker because it’s a real environment: you can stop at the champagne bar or go out the back door and look for the red-light district; it’s all hubbed around the station.
What a complete non sequitur; he's comparing an airport, which for obvious reasons has to be placed well outside the city, to a couple of inner-city train stations in London and Paris. WTF?
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 8:28 PM
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Yeah, why doesn't he compare YVR to Charles De Galle (Complete Dump) or Heathrow (mismanaged inefficient hellhole)
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
His idea about the trains being our lifeline to getting more flights to Asia is quite weak and the logic just isn't there. He doesn't even make a case for it so much as he says we need trains to Seattle/Portland to make flights to Asia work... Planes landing here 15 minutes before they land in Seattle is not reason enough for an airline to make people take a train from Vancouver.
Actually it is not. With fuel costs going up, airlines are going to be using larger planes with fewer flights to larger airports. That means there won't be flights from Vancouver to as many cities (or Seattle to as many cities). By connecting Vancouver and Seattle and their airports by high speed rail, that will both create the critical mass of passengers to justify the flights to the airports and give people quick access to Vancouver for flights from cities that are only served by flights to Seattle.

Airlines, because of high fuel cost, insecurity line-ups and lack of expansion space for airports are now dropping their opposition to high-speed rail and seeing it as completely to their business as it can be a feeder system to the more profitable long distances flights. Air France is even going to be offering rail service in Europe.

Regarding St. Pauls, the main point is that the site next to the train station should be reserved for rail expansion and not be developed into a hospital.
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 9:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Rusty Gull View Post
Off the Rails
What’s wrong with our city? Plenty, says SFU’s Anthony Perl, starting with our ass-backwards transportation plan

By John Burns published Mar 26, 2009, Vancouver Magazine


Q: When the world comes, what else will they notice?

A: Let’s start at the airport. What we show people there is an embalmed version of B.C. nature and culture. You have fake water, fake bird noises—it’s like being in a mausoleum.

Even the smell is like embalming fluid. It’s different from other airports, where you’re fed through a chute like cattle, so maybe that has some benefit—it certainly shocks you. In any transportation terminal, the question that’s asked most is, “Where’s the washroom?” At YVR, you get a fake rain forest with running water, which, if you’re going to wet your pants after being on a flight for 14 hours, is even more challenging.

We’re trying to present a version of ourselves, but it speaks to an insecurity: we have to tell them, we have to show them the Raven, we have to have the water and the canoe, to make sure people get it. But the reality is that given the nature of air transportation and the sealed environments that are required, where they have to get you through Customs and figure out who to Taser and who not to, it can’t be a real representation. In the great European cities, you walk into St. Pancras Station in London or Gare du Nord in Paris and you get it a lot quicker because it’s a real environment: you can stop at the champagne bar or go out the back door and look for the red-light district; it’s all hubbed around the station.

.
i am going to add my two cents...as someone who lived in vancouver for years, who lives in London and spends 200+ days a year in airports. I think he has it dead wrong regarding Vancouver airport- its one of the few airports where I feel a sense of place, it seems like vancouver instead of a generic steel & glass design. I probably travel more than the Professor but I dont seem to have any problem with holding my urine when I dsiembark (perhaps the travel expert needs to travel more). His reference to St Pancreas -yes St Pancreas is a gloriously restored train station but it has taken London countless years to refurbish the station. He conveniantly forgets to mention Kings Cross next door, one of the worlds busiest stations, that may be refurbished by 2012 but it is one of the great transport nightmares (sorry, I actually have to use the station)
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 9:13 PM
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1. the sidewalks in vancouver are indeed a total embarrassment. they're dinky, they're ugly and they don't serve the purposes they ought to. i've never showed an american or european around the town without suffering a remark on how oddly and almost claustrophobically miniscule the sidewalks are - imo, those need to change immediately and on every single high street.
Is it really feasible, or even possible, to widen sidewalks without demolishing and rebuilding the existing structures. I think the city is making it a priority, see the new Crossroads development at Broadway and Cambie, with double-width sidewalks on Broadway, and the two new developments on Cambie between 6th and 8th (double-width) on Cambie. However, short of reclaiming roadway from existing traffic use, this can only ever happen on a piecemeal basis.
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 9:28 PM
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I was walking down the sidewalk in seattle on sunday looking above me at the expansive glass awning...

we need more like that here
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 10:00 PM
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This guys got so many agendas mixed up, that one can only think that he was either conceived and/or born on a soap box. Due to his aimless rant, he's got almost zero credibility.
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 10:13 PM
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finally some constructive criticism of Vancouver!

he does make some good points about the North Shore being Kowloon to Vancouver's Hong Kong. as well as the point of having a grand boulevard. Granville is the first such idea that comes to mind for a full time year transformation.
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 10:58 PM
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However, short of reclaiming roadway from existing traffic use, this can only ever happen on a piecemeal basis.
This is what world class cities all over the world are doing. If the UBC Line is a subway, this would a great opportunity to reclaim some roadspace for pedestrians, cyclists and cafes. This would also encourage people to use the rapid transit line. The refusal of city hall to do this on Cambie Street is one of the greatest missed opportunities in Vancouver history.
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 10:59 PM
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With regard to the Vancouver airport issue, I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Perl.

Just over a month ago I had arrived back in Vancouver after 5 months or so in Asia. During my sojourn, I had a chance to visitmany impressive airports (Singapore Changi, Seoul Incheon, Suvarnabhumi International), a few not so impressive (LAX, Ngurah Rai International, Seattle International), and a couple downright disasters (Tribhuvan International, Indira Gandhi International ).

Arriving from Singapore to Vancouver was my first time seeing the new international arrivals section of YVR. My first impressions were nothing short of embarrasment, shame, and disgust. YVR left me feeling very underwhelmed. The whole "pacific northwest/eco focus" theme is pitiful and prosaic.

Reiterating what I have been proclaiming for years already, the city MUST hold international architecture competitions and not just simply hand out contracts to these banal, myopic local firms.

Anyways, Skytrax has a rating of the world's 5 star airports. Here they are:

Hong Kong International

Seoul Incheon

Singapore Changi Airport

http://www.airlinequality.com/AirportRanking/5-Star.htm


There's no reason why YVR shouldn't be on that list.

Last edited by Hed Kandi; Apr 9, 2009 at 11:44 AM.
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Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 11:15 PM
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With regard to the Vancouver airport issue, I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Perl.

Just over a month ago I had arrived back in Vancouver after 5 months or so in Asia. During my sojourn, I had a chance to many impressive airports (Singapore Changi, Seoul Incheon, Suvarnabhumi International) a few not so impressive (LAX, Ngurah Rai International, Seattle International), and a couple downright disasters (Tribhuvan International, Indira Gandhi International ).

Arriving from Singapore to Vancouver was my first time seeing the new international arrivals section of YVR. My first impressions were nothing short of embarrasment, shame, and disgust. YVR left me feeling VERY underwhelmed. The whole "pacific northwest/eco focus" theme is pitiful and prosaic.

Reiterating what I have been proclaiming for years already, the city MUST hold international architecture competitions and not just simply hand out contracts to these banal, myopic local firms.

Anyways, Skytrax has a rating of the world's 5 star airports. Here they are:

Hong Kong International

Seoul Incheon

Singapore Changi Airport

http://www.airlinequality.com/AirportRanking/5-Star.htm


There's no reason why YVR shouldn't be on that list.
it does seem to border on "kitschy" and it does seem a little forced and disneyfied

but it is nice at least

I have only ever seen it in pics however
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  #19  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 11:16 PM
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LeftCoaster LeftCoaster is offline
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Hed what is right for some is not right for all. I don't think I have ever agreed with your flavour of the month taste in architecture. I find YVR to be one of the least banal and steryotypical airports in the world... in fact it is the rest of the airports in the world that look the same. YVR is very original and I applaud it for not looking the same as every other damn airport in the world.

And you have sourced a rating that takes into account maybe 15 airports... YVR isn't even listed under any star rating, who is to say it isn't a 5 star under their system anyway? Who cares anyway as their website looks like it was designed using html code in notebook.
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  #20  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 11:24 PM
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djmk djmk is offline
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its ranked 4stars under "Find Airport : A-Z Index"

4 stars is good enough for me. we are not hong kong
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