Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[asies1981]

Update on proposed changes to form-based zoning. On a side note, Utah SIMS and the Patrinely Group are still early in the early stage of finalizing lease terms. So any announcement would still be at least a few weeks out.

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by jtrent77

Yeah it's crazy that they developed one of the largest construction projects in the country during the downturn of the economy to give us City Creek Center. We should totally punish them.

Yeah it's weird to think but the best, most urban projects that have happened in SLC the last 15 years or so have been from the lds church - City Creek, 111 South Main, Regent Street. Temple Square to Gallivan Plaza pretty much. Nearly all the other developers have made rather cheap, smaller-scale, uninspired stuff.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

I would rather see the Block north of little America developed before that... but it’s owned by the Mormon foundation and they mostly just like to buy property and sit on it with no intention of ever devolving it.

I think the city should implement some sort of sizable tax on surface parking, empty lots and abandoned buildings that are not in usable condition. That way it would be very expensive to land bank.

IIRC the city actually did want to tax surface parking a while back but the state legislature banned cities from instituting such a tax.

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by Jiffy

Obviously nothing significant. Otherwise you guys would be talking about it on here. This is a developmental page and yet when was the last time you guys ever really talked a lot about downtown development? I come on this page to get away from all the development talk from all the other pages just to see what weird crap you all come up with to talk about today! Its quite amusing to follow! But there is no way if you penalize all the land bankers for holding land to sell all at once that I bet not even half of them would sell for quite a few years. Therefore penalizing all the land owners for something much out of their control without being able to sell for years. So your rudely penalizing someone for years for absolutely nothing then.

They will sell eventually- but not until the market dictates it. Why would they sell if there is still plenty of parking lots and empty lots that still need to be developed?

Hmmm, interesting that someone from out of town is telling us what the demand is like in our city.

There may be a slow period at the moment for marquee downtown projects, and trust me, a lot of us are frustrated and impatient about it, but that doesn't mean nothing is happening. There are a TON of residential projects under construction right now. One of them will have 1,000 residential units.

At least have the guts to tell us what city you're from if you're going to make judgments about us.

[Jiffy]

Originally Posted by bob rulz

Hmmm, interesting that someone from out of town is telling us what the demand is like in our city.

There may be a slow period at the moment for marquee downtown projects, and trust me, a lot of us are frustrated and impatient about it, but that doesn't mean nothing is happening. There are a TON of residential projects under construction right now. One of them will have 1,000 residential units.

At least have the guts to tell us what city you're from if you're going to make judgments about us.

Dude all you guys do is complain about how there is nothing going on there so of course that would lead to someone to believe you!

I'm currently living in Seattle.

Also according to the SkyScraperPage it validates my point that there is nothing really going on in downtown Salt Lake.
Under Construction: http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?cityID=90&statusID=2
Proposed: http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?cityID=90&statusID=3

I was just in Salt Lake two months ago and almost all the construction I saw was out in the burbs. Not exactly the type of developments I would ever get excited about.

If you want to see a city with development going out their ears then go to Denver. I was just there last week and driving by their downtown there are cranes everywhere you look. I wouldn't be surprised if its unrecognizable there when all the current construction is complete.
If you go onto their developmental page there is no praise or excitement for development in the burbs.

Metro Austin is another city that's actually booming and its very comparable metro population to Salt Lake Metro. Somehow they know what they are doing.

Besides that wasn't my point- my point from before is that it is unfair to landowners for just trying to make a few extra dollars to punish them or penalize them for being smart business people to hold onto land that may or may not be developed or even sold right away. That would even mean penalizing large companies like Hines who pick up land banks years before they decide to develop them. That is potentially a large project from them but are they going to want to pick up that land if there is a penalty for doing so? If they know that if they buy it and knowing that there is a penalty then they probably won't buy it. There are repercussions for penalizing people like that, and it could potentially cost you a large development. Who even knows if the Church is going to wait 40-50 years to develop that land? Maybe they are closer to developing something than you think. But who knows. But in that sense the Church isn't all that different from the smart minds over at Hines. And it wouldn't make sense to penalize the one organization (the Church) who has given you more large downtown development than anyone else. Who's to say they don't have current plans for other major developments with the land they currently own? Central Salt Lake would be dead after 5 pm every day if it wasn't for their developments. Not really anyone else has ever taken much of a chance to invest in Downtown Salt Lake as much as them.

Overall it just wouldn't make sense to penalize people for that. Even here in Seattle, there is still plenty of parking lots that need to be developed. Also going against AjiuO where he said there is plenty of people wanting to develop apartments but there isn't enough land to develop it is preposterous. There is a swamp of empty lots in Salt Lake that would be getting sold and developed if that were true. Even in a lot of America's largest cities there is still plenty of parking lots and undeveloped land that can be developed. More so in Salt Lake giving its size and sprawl.
AjiuO: "There are plenty of developers willing to build apartment buildings, they just need to acquire the land to do it, and when the church is buying it all up for he’ll know what in the future, that is tough, and that’s why I want to make it hard for them to do that"
"There is a huge demand for residential in Salt Lake. They are building apartment buildings anywhere that they can put them and they are filling up fast. Apartments in the building that I live in are often leased before people even move out of them. The high demand for living space and short supply are causing rent rates to go through the roof.

If there was that much demand then there would be more to show for it. I believe good things will come to Salt Lake, but penalizing your main developers doesn't sound like the smartest idea to make.

Edit: Also doesn't logic dictate that the less available land for developers typically equal to larger developments? It does in every other city so Salt Lake has to be the same in that regard. So if the church is snatching it all up and refusing to sell, then potentially you guys could be closer to larger developments than otherwise would be if the land was available to developers.

[wrendog]

For every Austin, Denver and Seattle, there are a bunch of other cities with absolutely nothing going on. SLC is prime for big things. It's going to happen. It's just a matter of time.

[msbutah]

An interesting post from Atlantic Cities about SLC Crime.

[ajiuO]

1) I think we need to find a way to convert pioneer park to conditionl private property. Perhaps giving the property to the LDS church under the condition that they still operate it as a park with public access and still allow it to be used for events such as the farmers market. This way limited dress code and no camping rules could be applied without question. It would be very similar to what happend with the section of Main Street that they took over... if not them then perhaps another private entity.

2) The grass islands on 400 west need to be removed and replaced with parking and/or bike lanes... this also holds true for the island behind Rio Grand... I think that is actually happening though.

3) The islands behind gateway on 500 west need to become HOA property of gateway and the condos/apartment along 500 west. That way they can inforce dress code and no camping rules.

4) The City needs to stop allowing people to block sidewalks via mass congregations of homeless people.

[msbutah]

Your point #4 would run into serious first amendment issues. I don't want to turn public property over to private entities. It was obscene when the city did that with Main Street and would be even worse if they did it with Pioneer.

[delts145]

Jiffy, I agree that it could be a double edged sword, if we were to penalize developers for land banking.

There is a boat load of construction going on all over Salt Lake City. In fact, residential all around Downtown, it's immediate perimeter, Central City, the University of Utah, and Sugar House continues to be at record levels. True, at this time most of the construction is in the 4 to 10 story range, but still the numbers are definitely significant. Also, there is a back log of the high-rise type proposals that have not commenced construction, and that is frustrating. Given Salt Lake's booming economy, it's only a matter of time before the scales tip, and the taller projects move forward. Already, there has been an ever increasing number of national/international developers buying up large chunks of land and making their presence and plans known for Salt Lake's downtown.

Almost everyone is very appreciative of the world class projects that the LDS Church has developed for Salt Lake City's downtown. After all, Austin, Denver, and even a city as huge as my own Los Angeles has nothing in it's Downtown heart as beautiful as the expansive Temple Sq. and surrounding campus blocks. City Creek is still in a superior class of its own when it comes to retail/commercial. This despite all of the endless redevelopments, tear downs and do-overs of former core malls and retail cores all over the West Coast and the U.S. in general. That said, I think the growing number of deep pocketed national developers that are now entering the Salt Lake Market is a very good sign that we are all anxious to see further progress.

I can tell your anxious for Salt Lake City to succeed, and perhaps like me you even grew up there. Take a look at the Compilation Thread over on the general forum. Thanks to the great reporting of Isaac Riddle, and many local photographers, we have a pretty good accounting of the many recent, ongoing and upcoming development projects in Salt Lake City proper and surrounding metro. The link is: http://skyscraperpage.com/forum/show...93987&page=258

If you guys would like, it would be very easy for me to organize a page one on this thread. It's been years since we've had one, and it's just a matter of copying and pasting the info. from my posts on the Comp. Thread. This would be a lot simpler for me than for Jubguy to have to start from scratch. I'll need Jubguy and Viperlords permission first.

[bob rulz]

Originally Posted by Jiffy

Dude all you guys do is complain about how there is nothing going on there so of course that would lead to someone to believe you!

I'm currently living in Seattle.

Also according to the SkyScraperPage it validates my point that there is nothing really going on in downtown Salt Lake.
Under Construction: http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?cityID=90&statusID=2
Proposed: http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?cityID=90&statusID=3

No big skyscrapers under construction =/= nothing going on.

I was just in Salt Lake two months ago and almost all the construction I saw was out in the burbs. Not exactly the type of developments I would ever get excited about.

There's a lot going on in the suburbs. There's a lot going on in Salt Lake City, too, and a lot in the pipeline. It just isn't all necessarily in the most highly visible areas, and a lot of it is going to happen and just hasn't quite started yet. Just take a glance at the project map on Building Salt Lake.

If you want to see a city with development going out their ears then go to Denver. I was just there last week and driving by their downtown there are cranes everywhere you look. I wouldn't be surprised if its unrecognizable there when all the current construction is complete.
If you go onto their developmental page there is no praise or excitement for development in the burbs.

Metro Austin is another city that's actually booming and its very comparable metro population to Salt Lake Metro. Somehow they know what they are doing.

Also, it's true, all people do is complain about here is that there's nothing going on. Personally it drives me nuts to see people complain so much. The problem is that people here see what's going on in Seattle, Denver, and Austin and want us to be exactly like that. Well, we're not going to be. If we try to compare ourselves to what are 3 of the most desirable cities in the country, then we're just setting ourselves up for further disappointment. And I don't think it's reflective of Salt Lake "not knowing what we're doing", just that we don't get the same level of investment. And we're simply not going to.

Besides that wasn't my point- my point from before is that it is unfair to landowners for just trying to make a few extra dollars to punish them or penalize them for being smart business people to hold onto land that may or may not be developed or even sold right away. That would even mean penalizing large companies like Hines who pick up land banks years before they decide to develop them. That is potentially a large project from them but are they going to want to pick up that land if there is a penalty for doing so? If they know that if they buy it and knowing that there is a penalty then they probably won't buy it. There are repercussions for penalizing people like that, and it could potentially cost you a large development. Who even knows if the Church is going to wait 40-50 years to develop that land? Maybe they are closer to developing something that you think. But who knows. But in that sense the Church isn't all that different from the smart minds over at Hines. And it wouldn't make sense to penalize the one organization (the Church) who has given you more large downtown development than anyone else. Who's to say they don't have current plans for other major developments with the land they currently own? Central Salt Lake would be dead after 5 pm every day if it wasn't for their developments. Not really anyone else has ever taken much of a chance to invest in Downtown Salt Lake as much as them.

Overall it just wouldn't make sense to penalize people for that. Even here in Seattle, there is still plenty of parking lots that need to be developed. Also going against OjiuO where he said there is plenty of people wanting to develop apartments but there isn't enough land to develop it is preposterous. There is a swamp of empty lots in Salt Lake that would be getting sold and developed if that were true. Even in a lot of America's largest cities there is still plenty of parking lots and undeveloped land that can be developed. More so in Salt Lake giving its size and sprawl.
OjiuO: "There are plenty of developers willing to build apartment buildings, they just need to acquire the land to do it, and when the church is buying it all up for he’ll know what in the future, that is tough, and that’s why I want to make it hard for them to do that"
"There is a huge demand for residential in Salt Lake. They are building apartment buildings anywhere that they can put them and they are filling up fast. Apartments in the building that I live in are often leased before people even move out of them. The high demand for living space and short supply are causing rent rates to go through the roof.

If there was that much demand then there would be more to show for it. I believe good things will come to Salt Lake, but penalizing your main developers doesn't sound like the smartest idea to make.

Edit: Also doesn't logic dictate that the less available land for developers typically equal to larger developments? It does in every other city so Salt Lake has to be the same in that regard. So if the church is snatching it all up and refusing to sell, then potentially you guys could be closer to larger developments than otherwise would be if the land was available to developers.

I agree with this point in general. That said, the numbers do show that demand is very very high. We currently have a lower apartment vacancy rate than Denver, for example, and our rental prices are among the fastest-rising in the country. The problem is not that developers aren't willing to develop, it's that demand has grown so quickly that they can't get them up fast enough.

Also, Salt Lake has a LOT of developable land downtown. We could fill up half of it and still complain about there being too many parking lots.

Anyway, I think it's time for someone to do a project picture update, to show everyone here that there ARE things happening.

tldr - there's only the perception of "not a lot going on" if you compare us to a city like Denver.

[Jiffy]

I agree with both you Delts and Bob rulez. I'm not trying to argue, just get the point across that it will definitely hurt the city if we penalize developers and land bankers. (even if some of my data is a little inaccurate from not being fully read into Salt Lake City, what I wrote is simply just my perception. but do apologize if some things are slightly off)

Delts- I enjoyed that link you sent me and it reminded me of a site that a lot of people in Denver use. I think it would help a lot of people realize what is going on in the city and all the potential if someone were to create a similar site for Salt Lake. its http://denverinfill.com/blog/

Its a great site and it gets strait to the point and instead of random conversations going on like this forum tends to do, it has comment sections at the bottom of each page and it helps people stay on topic and discuss that development. I believe adding a website and linking every project on there to this forum page would greatly help a lot with keeping a positive vibe and staying on topic.

that denverinfill site focuses on just the urban areas of Downtown and Cherry Creek. Maybe Salt Lake could have a similar site focusing on the development in just the Downtown and Sugar House areas?

[airhero]

Originally Posted by delts145

If you guys would like, it would be very easy for me to organize a page one on this thread. It's been years since we've had one, and it's just a matter of copying and pasting the info. from my posts on the Comp. Thread. This would be a lot simpler for me than for Jubguy to have to start from scratch. I'll need Jubguy and Viperlords permission first.

I am all for this. Let this happen. Our page 1 has been terrible for years.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Jiffy

Edit: Also doesn't logic dictate that the less available land for developers typically equal to larger developments? It does in every other city so Salt Lake has to be the same in that regard. So if the church is snatching it all up and refusing to sell, then potentially you guys could be closer to larger developments than otherwise would be if the land was available to developers.

Well for a large (tall) development it would need to be in the D-1 zoning district, on the corner of a block, not already have a tall building on it, and not be isolated from the rest of downtown (past 500 s). The church owns a lot but the 3 blocks that surround our downtown that are almost completely parking are a problem. In particular the block at 400 S and main.

The block is 10 acres and could potentially house up to 4 buildings of any height. It cuts a massive hole in our downtown and I do believe it has been an impediment to development south of it. North it is already mostly developed, to the east state acts like a barrier, and to the west it is zoned D-4 with much shorter allowed heights.

I would like to see the city change some of the D-4 to D-1, I think that would help. Ultimately for the health of our city and our transit system we really do need the 400 S Main block developed, at least the Main Street frontage.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

1) I think we need to find a way to convert pioneer park to conditionl private property. Perhaps giving the property to the LDS church under the condition that they still operate it as a park with public access and still allow it to be used for events such as the farmers market. This way limited dress code and no camping rules could be applied without question. It would be very similar to what happend with the section of Main Street that they took over... if not them then perhaps another private entity.

2) The grass islands on 400 west need to be removed and replaced with parking and/or bike lanes... this also holds true for the island behind Rio Grand... I think that is actually happening though.

3) The islands behind gateway on 500 west need to become HOA property of gateway and the condos/apartment along 500 west. That way they can inforce dress code and no camping rules.

4) The City needs to stop allowing people to block sidewalks via mass congregations of homeless people.

Dude

The city and county are shipping the homeless out of the neighborhood.

It takes time for the buildings to be designed and completed (2019). Are you going to post something about the homeless on every page for the next 2 years?

[EPdesign]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

Dude

The city and county are shipping the homeless out of the neighborhood.

It takes time for the buildings to be designed and completed (2019). Are you going to post something about the homeless on every page for the next 2 years?

Hahahaha

[Stenar]

Parks and islands do NOT have to be private property to have rules against camping. Almost all municipal parks everywhere have rules against being in them at all after a certain hour. A private entity isn’t going to be able to enforce those rules any better than the police department.

We do not need to get rid of the park blocks (“islands”).

Originally Posted by ajiuO

1) I think we need to find a way to convert pioneer park to conditionl private property. Perhaps giving the property to the LDS church under the condition that they still operate it as a park with public access and still allow it to be used for events such as the farmers market. This way limited dress code and no camping rules could be applied without question. It would be very similar to what happend with the section of Main Street that they took over... if not them then perhaps another private entity.

2) The grass islands on 400 west need to be removed and replaced with parking and/or bike lanes... this also holds true for the island behind Rio Grand... I think that is actually happening though.

3) The islands behind gateway on 500 west need to become HOA property of gateway and the condos/apartment along 500 west. That way they can inforce dress code and no camping rules.

4) The City needs to stop allowing people to block sidewalks via mass congregations of homeless people.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by msbutah

Your point #4 would run into serious first amendment issues. I don't want to turn public property over to private entities. It was obscene when the city did that with Main Street and would be even worse if they did it with Pioneer.

I don’t think it was obscene at all for the city to close that block of Main Street and sell it to the LDS church. The city actually had that on its master plan of things to do since the 1960s in order to control traffic coming from the north.

[msbutah]

I disagree but that's a point that was beat to death 10 years ago and its settled history now.

[EPdesign]

At work today helping pick up some equipment at the Hotel site. Good thing it was casual Friday and not raining. You fellas need to chill out. SLC is headed in the right direction. You're just impatient lol.

Also...The Royal wood developers are pretty set on their first phase. My colleagues and I were talking about it today as I'm not involved with that property I had lots of questions. I'm like a development Info junky. Lol. From what I hear I'm very optimistic about it. Fingers cross it to begin early next year.