Amazon Seeking 2nd Headquarters: Canadian Cities Pitch Interest

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by someone123

Seattle is this weird place that seems like it would be great in theory but doesn't have much cultural meat to it, or at least has an unusually light assortment of the stuff I find interesting despite how large and wealthy it is. It has a lot of cultural amenities on paper because it's full of millionaires who like to see their names on buildings. It has a lot of wealthy upper middle class types who are soylent-drinking ascetic bro technocrats; I will leave it as an exercise for readers to decide how fun people like that are at parties. The vestigial lower class stuff (i.e. for the people who will work at-will for poverty wages in an Amazon warehouse in the brave new world) is kind of bland and rootless. The commercialism there, conspicuous consumption, obsession with virtue signalling, etc. reminds me of a milder version of California.

More so than Vancouver? Or is it an overall similar vibe and "inventory of stuff"?

(I don't mean this in a bad way towards Vancouver. Or Seattle for that matter... or California. FWIW I very much enjoyed my time in Van but it did match this description better than any of the other major cities I've been to in Canada, and I've been to most of them)

[memememe76]

I guess it depends on what "cultural amenities" matter to people. In my view, what Seattle (and Vancouver, for that matter) has is hard to replicate in other cities.

[SpongeG]

birthplace of grunge, hendrix etc. The seattle music scene is pretty well known worldwide.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Hali87

More so than Vancouver? Or is it an overall similar vibe and "inventory of stuff"?

I think Vancouver has the same trends and drawbacks but to a different degree. And it has some of its own advantages and disadvantages. I agree that it's the most Seattle-like Canadian city, and the most like the American West Coast cities.

I would say that Seattle is 60% of the way to being Bezosville, and Vancouver is maybe 30% there.

One big difference is that there is a lot less tech money floating around in Vancouver and there are no major homegrown companies here. There are a lot of higher paying tech jobs now but that whole scene makes up a smaller proportion of the city. Vancouver in some ways is like an amalgam of all of the West Coast US cities; in Canada there is just one big Pacific city to move to but in the US there are choices and American cities have specialized more as a result of that.

Vancouver is also a lot more cosmopolitan. The Asian population here is far higher. Seattle (city) for example is about 2/3 white. I would also guess that Vancouver is more urbane in the sense that a higher proportion of people live in highrises or urban neighbourhoods. This happened because of housing costs, culture, and highways vs. transit. The suburban population that commutes back and forth between concrete and vinyl boxes along highways seems much larger in the Seattle metropolitan area. Likewise they seem to have more traditional American upscale suburban areas that are fairly detached from the urban core.

I am torn about the tech industry. On the one hand it is one of the few vibrant industries that allow people to work to obtain a good standard of living. On the other it is, to a large degree, a symptom of our rotten economic system. People shouldn't be getting obscenely wealthy off of financial schemes and monopolies like these. And if you look closely, even the skilled tech workers get peanuts compared to the billionaire founders and CEOs (who even pay lower tax rates).

[Pinion]

I don't think Seattle is much like Vancouver at all. Seattle has a real economy and tons of home-grown millionaires running legitimate, innovative companies. Vancouver is just one big real estate money laundering scheme.

Originally Posted by Hackslack

God forbid any more tanker traffic enter the port of Vancouver though. Could you imagine the uproar in Vancouver if there is to be an increase in vessels in and out of the harbour... what about the whales!!

Pretty sure Amazon doesn't sell oil... yet.

Our container ports are constantly expanding. But Seattle has them too, and better road infrastructure.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

birthplace of grunge, hendrix etc. The seattle music scene is pretty well known worldwide.

I am not sure if this produces actual cultural dividends for people on the ground, but Seattle certainly has a bigger profile globally than Vancouver does: those you mention, Starbucks and coffee in general, Sleepless in Seattle, Microsoft, Boeing, Twilight (by ricochet), etc.

Vancouver has maybe Lululemon, the 2010 Olympics, Whistler (by ricochet) and "the only Canadian city that isn't freezing/doesn't get snow in the winter" (sic).

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by Acajack

and "the only Canadian city that isn't freezing/doesn't get snow in the winter" (sic).

Really? That's not how I remember last December there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by TorontoDrew

Really? That's not how I remember last December there.

Hence the (sic).

[osmo]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

birthplace of grunge, hendrix etc. The seattle music scene is pretty well known worldwide.

What happened to Seattle's rag tags and misfits that birthed their subcultures? It almost seemed that they all faded away (or moved) in the late 90s/early 2000s. Did they all move to California?

You need misfits, ragtag, artists class that creates cool stuff.

When cities become wealthy they take a hit culturally big time. This is one critic I have of Toronto as it is "rising" only from the fact that well-known acts are getting traction, but its grassroots arts and misfits are getting the destroyed locally and the city is fading away with much of its grassroots underground subcultures. Places like Chicago and Montreal for example still have strong subcultures because misfits and artists can still afford to operate there.

[TorontoDrew]

Originally Posted by osmo

This is one critic I have of Toronto as it is "rising" only from the fact that well-known acts are getting traction, but its grassroots arts and misfits are getting the destroyed locally and the city is fading away with much of its grassroots underground subcultures.

Well then clearly you're not paying attention. The Indy scene in this city is thriving. It's only because a few big artists have made it to the global charts most don't notice the smaller bands and artists. I'd be willing to bet most Canadinas can't name any Indy bands out of other Canadian cities let alone their own. I'm glad not to be one of those people. My 2 favorite non mainstream artists are Daniel Caesar and Patrick Watson. Though Daniel Caesar may become bigger then the Weeknd as he gets more traction. The notion that only big names make it in this city is insulting to those who don't listen to the radio and who will go to live shows and buy cd's to support our local acts who's sound doesn't suit everybody's taste.
https://theculturetrip.com/north-ame...o-indie-bands/

[christmas]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am not sure if this produces actual cultural dividends for people on the ground, but Seattle certainly has a bigger profile globally than Vancouver does: those you mention, Starbucks and coffee in general, Sleepless in Seattle, Microsoft, Boeing, Twilight (by ricochet), etc.

Vancouver has maybe Lululemon, the 2010 Olympics, Whistler (by ricochet) and "the only Canadian city that isn't freezing/doesn't get snow in the winter" (sic).

Vancouver also has Slack, D-Wave and Hootsuite. It snows but it doesn't drag on like some other places in Canada. Vancouver does seem to need more international players, but considering its population (~650,000) I think the city is good with a few successful startups for now.

I think you would need some recognizable names, however, once your pop hits close to 3 million though.

[harls]

Some guy from Ottawa is pretty smart and solved this thread, so thank him.

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

This whole thing is a scam, really. Here's a company making billions in profit at the expense of thousands and thousands of retail jobs, and it's looking for corporate handouts and tax breaks. Like Walmart, Amazon is likely contributing to the decline of city centres all over.

It's pretty demeaning that Amazon is dangling the carrot expecting everyone to jump, when it really should conduct its own research and analysis for the best location. If I were looking for a new house I have to search on my own or hire a real estate agent. Cities are going to spend a lot of time and money pitching and won't get paid for the effort if they don't get it. it smacks of work on spec, and reflects on how they perceive labour.

In the end, some city is going to get fleeced to provide concessions, and Amazon is going to suck most of the money because it thinks it's entitled to the economic windfall it produces instead of owing it to the place that gives it a home.

Personally, I think they should just stick to Seattle and swallow all the costs since they are part of the reason that city has become so expensive. If they build it into their pricing maybe the rest of the global retail business environment has some chance of remaining competitive.

[le calmar]

Amen. /thread

[Rico Rommheim]

Yes, this thread can close with Kitchissippi's rant.

But what would be the point of that, because MY city can totally receive amazon's exploitation, forget Boston or Texas, it's going to happen in MY city. MY city's the best candidate don't ya know? Too small, too obscure, too close to Seattle, no potential workforce? No problemo, because it's MY city! ME!

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Vancouver has maybe Lululemon...

Fashion is not my area of expertise, but there are a number of influential Vancouver brands other than just Lululemon. Off the top of my head, there is: Aritzia, Herschel Supply Co., MEC, Indochino, Arc’teryx, John Fluevog, etc. I would add Kit & Ace but it just closed all its non-Canadian stores.

Another interesting thing, when you are in Seattle, you see numerous Vancouver restaurants, from The Keg to Earls, among others.

[lrt's friend]

It is easy to get caught up in the hype of all of this but as Kitchissippi has suggested, Amazon is working against healthy urban environments by moving main street retail jobs into remote warehouses usually at minimum wage. Is this really what we all want? But I guess, it is hard to ignore the reality of retail trends whether or not they produce undesirable results in the long run.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by someone123

I am torn about the tech industry. On the one hand it is one of the few vibrant industries that allow people to work to obtain a good standard of living. On the other it is, to a large degree, a symptom of our rotten economic system. People shouldn't be getting obscenely wealthy off of financial schemes and monopolies like these. And if you look closely, even the skilled tech workers get peanuts compared to the billionaire founders and CEOs (who even pay lower tax rates).

There are at least two things to mourn here. The first is that the titans of the tech industry have become just as, or perhaps more, rapacious than the financiers of Wall Street. And as that happens, the tech industry itself becomes much more financialized and less about advancing new research for the "good" of society, or even just the good of the consumer economy. I read somewhere that Apple makes more money on stock buybacks than it does from selling iPhones. At a certain point, why would a company put the risk into actual engineering when it can just make money from financial engineering? Why make things, when you can just make money out of thin air? Of course, the money doesn't really come out of thin air. Somebody has to be the loser.

The second thing to mourn is that our late stage capitalist economy has run out of ideas, and "tech" is really the only thing that ignites our imagination. It's where parents of smart children hope their kids will land. Forget about other areas, like public service or non-tech (sometimes labeled 'traditional') industrial sectors that used to excite and attract smart people. Remember in the Graduate where Dustin Hoffman's character is instructed by his father's friend to go into 'Plastics'? He could have just as easily said 'Aerospace' or 'precision die casting' or to contribute to the green revolution.

[rotten42]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is easy to get caught up in the hype of all of this but as Kitchissippi has suggested, Amazon is working against healthy urban environments by moving main street retail jobs into remote warehouses usually at minimum wage. Is this really what we all want? But I guess, it is hard to ignore the reality of retail trends whether or not they produce undesirable results in the long run.

Amazon isn't doing it....we are buy choosing where to spend our money.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rotten42

Amazon isn't doing it....we are buy choosing where to spend our money.

Classic sign of our times.

People bitching about a situation that they themselves willingly decide to create and continue to perpetuate through their own decisions.

97% of people I know who harp about climate change still drive way more than they have to, in spite of real alternatives out there that could reduce the amount of car trips they take significantly.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Classic sign of our times.

People bitching about a situation that they themselves willingly decide to create and continue to perpetuate through their own decisions.

97% of people I know who harp about climate change still drive way more than they have to, in spite of real alternatives out there that could reduce the amount of car trips they take significantly.

My recent trip to New York City shows that an alternative to private vehicles can be highly effective. If we continue to bend over backwards to moving people by private vehicle, there will be no incentive to choose an alternative. If we do not provide very good service for that alternative, people will not choose it. We are making collective decisions when it relates to transport, which are not consistent with solving the climate change problem. In that respect, retail is different. Transport options are provided by collective decisions. Individual choice is limited by the options available. Retail options are funded privately and we have more real individual choice as a result. By choosing Amazon, we are making real choices with real implications. Most don't think beyond what is easy and what is cheap and this is reflected in retail trends in the last couple of generations.