Goose Hollow News

[johnliu]

An 8 story high school.

It's doable, I guess. Fordham University in Manhattan is essentially a whole university in two high rise buildings, one being classrooms and offices, and the neighboring building being student housing, with a little bit of plaza squeezed between.

Still, it basically means that the students spend the whole day inside. I guess they might as well get early exposure to the office rat race environment, but I'd be kind of sad watching my 14 y/o disappear into a highrise block like office workers in Midtown Manhattan . . .

Wonder what the elevator plan will be. Every hour on the hour, 2,000 people carrying backpacks will have less than ten minutes to completely redistribute themselves throughout the building. Suppose 300 of them only have to go a couple floors so they take stairs, that's 1,700 taking elevators. 10 persons to a car, that's 170 carloads. Even with ten elevators, that's still 17 cartrips to make in less than 10 minutes or 1.7 trips a minute . . . At 8:15 am all 2,000 people are trying to take elevators up to their classrooms. At noon, all 2,000 people are trying to get to the cafeteria, while 50 minutes later, they are all trying to get out. Anyone do this sort of modeling, what will be required?

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by johnliu

An 8 story high school.

It's doable, I guess. Fordham University in Manhattan is essentially a whole university in two high rise buildings, one being classrooms and offices, and the neighboring building being student housing, with a little bit of plaza squeezed between.

Still, it basically means that the students spend the whole day inside. I guess they might as well get early exposure to the office rat race environment, but I'd be kind of sad watching my 14 y/o disappear into a highrise block like office workers in Midtown Manhattan . . .

Wonder what the elevator plan will be. Every hour on the hour, 2,000 people carrying backpacks will have less than ten minutes to completely redistribute themselves throughout the building. Suppose 300 of them only have to go a couple floors so they take stairs, that's 1,700 taking elevators. 10 persons to a car, that's 170 carloads. Even with ten elevators, that's still 17 cartrips to make in less than 10 minutes or 1.7 trips a minute . . . At 8:15 am all 2,000 people are trying to take elevators up to their classrooms. At noon, all 2,000 people are trying to get to the cafeteria, while 50 minutes later, they are all trying to get out. Anyone do this sort of modeling, what will be required?

More than likely they would have it broken up by grades per floor. So your freshmen classes in the first couple floors, then sophomore classes on the next few floors, and so on. There is a high school in Manhattan that is in a tower that is basically like this.

[cityscapes]

Originally Posted by johnliu

An 8 story high school.

It's doable, I guess. Fordham University in Manhattan is essentially a whole university in two high rise buildings, one being classrooms and offices, and the neighboring building being student housing, with a little bit of plaza squeezed between.

Still, it basically means that the students spend the whole day inside. I guess they might as well get early exposure to the office rat race environment, but I'd be kind of sad watching my 14 y/o disappear into a highrise block like office workers in Midtown Manhattan . . .

Wonder what the elevator plan will be. Every hour on the hour, 2,000 people carrying backpacks will have less than ten minutes to completely redistribute themselves throughout the building. Suppose 300 of them only have to go a couple floors so they take stairs, that's 1,700 taking elevators. 10 persons to a car, that's 170 carloads. Even with ten elevators, that's still 17 cartrips to make in less than 10 minutes or 1.7 trips a minute . . . At 8:15 am all 2,000 people are trying to take elevators up to their classrooms. At noon, all 2,000 people are trying to get to the cafeteria, while 50 minutes later, they are all trying to get out. Anyone do this sort of modeling, what will be required?

They’ll be spending the whole day inside regardless of how many floors the school has or where it is...

I’m glad they’re flipping the layout of the school. Having the buildings along the street rather than the freeway is going to make that area feel a lot more urban.

[maccoinnich]

So I’m assuming that classes at the current low rise Lincoln High School look something like this?

[johnliu]

Originally Posted by urbanlife

More than likely they would have it broken up by grades per floor. So your freshmen classes in the first couple floors, then sophomore classes on the next few floors, and so on. There is a high school in Manhattan that is in a tower that is basically like this.

That wouldn't work for Lincoln, as each teacher has his assigned classroom where they teach classes for different grades. For example, a teacher might teach English 1-2 (typically taken by freshmen), and English 3-4 (typically taken by sophomores), and another one might teach English 5-6 and English 7-8. There are also many electives taken by all grade levels. The teachers have their own assigned classrooms because they don't have other offices, unlike at a university, and the classrooms have equipment, books, and other teaching aids specific to the classes taught there. So it would not be possible for each grade's students to take all or even most of their classes on the same couple of floors.

I checked Lincoln's bell schedule, and the challenge of moving between rooms is greater than I earlier said. The students get only 35 minutes for lunch. The breaks between classes are either 5 or 10 minutes.

Suppose there's 250 students on each floor and then the break starts, 200 of them are trying to get on an elevator all at once. That's about 10 car loads. Multiply by 8 floors with the same situation.

How many elevators will be required? Anyone do this sort of traffic analysis?

[johnliu]

Originally Posted by maccoinnich

So I’m assuming that classes at the current low rise Lincoln High School look something like this?

The current Lincoln is basically two floors of classrooms with wide hallways and wide stairs, plus cafeteria (and some studios plus a few classrooms) in basement, and a single level of temporary buildings outside. Getting from class to class is a short walk, either within the main building or outside to the temp buildings, plus maybe one level of stairs.

[MarkDaMan]

Originally Posted by johnliu

The current Lincoln is basically two floors of classrooms with wide hallways and wide stairs, plus cafeteria (and some studios plus a few classrooms) in basement, and a single level of temporary buildings outside. Getting from class to class is a short walk, either within the main building or outside to the temp buildings, plus maybe one level of stairs.

The high school I went to in Arizona had 3,200 students and two campuses over a half mile apart. In 110 degree weather we'd have to make the walk between campuses and only have 10 minutes passing. I don't think going up and down a few floors of stairs is going to be a deal killer. Kids are adaptable.

[johnliu]

Originally Posted by MarkDaMan

The high school I went to in Arizona had 3,200 students and two campuses over a half mile apart. In 110 degree weather we'd have to make the walk between campuses and only have 10 minutes passing. I don't think going up and down a few floors of stairs is going to be a deal killer. Kids are adaptable.

Granted, people can cope with poor designs, but a brand new $250MM complex shouldn't require coping. Also, disability issues.

[2oh1]

Originally Posted by johnliu

Granted, people can cope with poor designs, but a brand new $250MM complex shouldn't require coping. Also, disability issues.

I don't understand why you're opposed to going tall with a school. I think it's a fine idea. Surely it'll have elevators, so there will be no disability issues, and it'll have stairs for the students and faculty who don't want to wait for them. I mean, really now... it's not as if this will be the world's first tall school.

Yes, there will be changes to schedules and systems, but that's the case any time a new school opens or goes through a major shift.

[johnliu]

Originally Posted by 2oh1

I don't understand why you're opposed to going tall with a school. I think it's a fine idea. Surely it'll have elevators, so there will be no disability issues, and it'll have stairs for the students and faculty who don't want to wait for them. I mean, really now... it's not as if this will be the world's first tall school.

Yes, there will be changes to schedules and systems, but that's the case any time a new school opens or goes through a major shift.

I am interested in how people will move around in the building and between floors. Given the rather unusual requirements of a school, especially with the tight scheduling that state law effectively dictates (minimum annual hours of instruction).

As for going high, the advantage is that it allows larger athletic and arts/theatre facilities. There is no other advantage to going high. This isn't a housing project. And it's not going to be an attractive tower either.

I imagine going high carries some cost penalties.

[MarkDaMan]

Originally Posted by johnliu

I am interested in how people will move around in the building and between floors. Given the rather unusual requirements of a school, especially with the tight scheduling that state law effectively dictates (minimum annual hours of instruction).

As for going high, the advantage is that it allows larger athletic and arts/theatre facilities. There is no other advantage to going high. This isn't a housing project. And it's not going to be an attractive tower either.

I imagine going high carries some cost penalties.

There will be plenty of design discussions both in the city permitting process and receiving approval from the PPS board/admins to go forward. Get involved, attend some of these design sessions. I guarantee you most of your questions will be answered.

The rest of your post...I can't say if the new school will be attractive or not because there aren't enough details to determine that. Nobody here has mentioned this could be a housing project. There are many trade-offs for going high as well as sprawling. I'm not totally sure what you mean by "penalties" but there will be no government penalties or sanctions for picking one design over another.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by johnliu

That wouldn't work for Lincoln, as each teacher has his assigned classroom where they teach classes for different grades. For example, a teacher might teach English 1-2 (typically taken by freshmen), and English 3-4 (typically taken by sophomores), and another one might teach English 5-6 and English 7-8. There are also many electives taken by all grade levels. The teachers have their own assigned classrooms because they don't have other offices, unlike at a university, and the classrooms have equipment, books, and other teaching aids specific to the classes taught there. So it would not be possible for each grade's students to take all or even most of their classes on the same couple of floors.

I checked Lincoln's bell schedule, and the challenge of moving between rooms is greater than I earlier said. The students get only 35 minutes for lunch. The breaks between classes are either 5 or 10 minutes.

Suppose there's 250 students on each floor and then the break starts, 200 of them are trying to get on an elevator all at once. That's about 10 car loads. Multiply by 8 floors with the same situation.

How many elevators will be required? Anyone do this sort of traffic analysis?

That is how it works right now, that doesn't mean that is how it will always work. When I was in high school years ago, we use to be on a 7 period schedule that later changed to an A/B day schedule with four classes periods each day.

Here is an urban high school, 17 stories, in Sydney.
https://grimshaw.global/projects/art...public-school/





A high school tower can definitely look attractive and well designed. Like this high school, it can even function well as a tower.

[johnliu]

That's a rendering of a highrise urban high school. I don't know how we can say how it functions when it doesn't exist yet.

I know that one of the main complaints of Fordham students is the elevators. That's the only example of a highrise school building that I have personally seen or looked into.

By cost penalties, I meant that going high could increase the cost.

About the bell schedule: PPS has a uniform bell schedule for all high schools. The schedule isn't flexibly changeable, it has to meet requirements like minimum instructional hours, legal and contract limits on working hours, number of credits required for graduation, etc. It would be hard for PPS to have a special schedule for each high school to accomodate different building configurations.

There is some preference here for taller buildings downtown - I think I'm right in saying that - but for the unusual requirements of a high school, it may be that a boring old three story lump meets those requirements better.

[urbanlife]

Originally Posted by johnliu

That's a design for an highrise urban high school. It doesn't exist yet.

By cost penalties, I meant that going high could increase the cost.

About the bell schedule: PPS has a uniform bell schedule for all high schools. The schedule isn't flexibly changeable, it has to meet requirements like minimum instructional hours, legal and contract limits on working hours, number of credits required for graduation, etc. It would be hard for PPS to have a special schedule for each high school to accomodate different building configurations.

There is some preference here for taller buildings downtown - I think I'm right in saying that - but for the unusual requirements of a high school, it may be that a boring old three story lump meets those requirements better.

Of course it doesn't exist yet, I seriously did a ten minute search and found that high school. I am sure there are plenty of already existing high schools that are more than three stories high that function just fine. My point being is that this high school would be more than capable of being done in a large 10 story building. Not even sure why we are debating that issue....

As for requirements, why would that matter when it came to the design of a high school? I really think you are over thinking this and creating more problems for how this high school would function than how it would really work. Though if you are actually interested in how the high school would function, then make sure you go to any of the design presentations to voice this concern. I am sure we will see design files on this site that show how the school will function as well.

Brooklyn Technical High School is a 12 story building and has a student body over 5000 students, and has been around since 1922. So again, what is being proposed here isn't something out of the realm of possibility.

[DMH]

Originally Posted by johnliu

I am interested in how people will move around in the building and between floors. Given the rather unusual requirements of a school, especially with the tight scheduling that state law effectively dictates (minimum annual hours of instruction).

As for going high, the advantage is that it allows larger athletic and arts/theatre facilities. There is no other advantage to going high. This isn't a housing project. And it's not going to be an attractive tower either.

I imagine going high carries some cost penalties.

I am surprised by this discussion thread that so many are worried about vertical circulation between class sessions. As an architect on many multi-story academic buildings, I and my design team typically provided a Code-minimum number of elevators, unless the Owner requested more. And we made sure that all stairs are wide and comfortable with daylight & views. At exit stairs, we provided exit doors on hold-open devices tied to the fire alarm system, so those doors remain open all the time, except in an emergency. Thus, ambulatory students readily choose to use the stairs instead of the elevators.

[MNTimberjack]

Seems like a similar plan to the newer Cass Tech High School in Detroit.

[johnliu]

Originally Posted by DMH

I am surprised by this discussion thread that so many are worried about vertical circulation between class sessions. As an architect on many multi-story academic buildings, I and my design team typically provided a Code-minimum number of elevators, unless the Owner requested more. And we made sure that all stairs are wide and comfortable with daylight & views. At exit stairs, we provided exit doors on hold-open devices tied to the fire alarm system, so those doors remain open all the time, except in an emergency. Thus, ambulatory students readily choose to use the stairs instead of the elevators.

That's interesting, thank you. For this building, what might code minimum elevators be? Is it normal practice to do simulations of traffic when designing these buildings vs code minimum?

Some reading I did suggests that elevators for schools should have a handling capacity significantly higher than for other types of buildings (2-3X higher).

In fairness to everyone else, I think I'm the only one in this thread who is overtly interested in the issue of movement between levels.

[DMH]

Originally Posted by johnliu

That's interesting, thank you. For this building, what might code minimum elevators be? Is it normal practice to do simulations of traffic when designing these buildings vs code minimum?

Some reading I did suggests that elevators for schools should have a handling capacity significantly higher than for other types of buildings (2-3X higher).

In fairness to everyone else, I think I'm the only one in this thread who is overtly interested in the issue of movement between levels.

Yes, on some of our larger projects, we hired elevator consultants to calculate wait times for different elevator quantity scenarios. Other variables that are considered are cab size and elevator speed.

[maccoinnich]

Drawings [6 MB] and Staff Memo for 1715 SW Salmon

[QAtheSky]

I don't mind this at all except for the grey vertical bars jutting out on each side of the corner... it makes this building feel aggressive.