Canadian ethnicity, immigration, housing etc.

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is just a hunch but it's probably not that big a stretch to think that only a quarter to a third of the people residing in Lebanon right now are Christian. It might even be a bit less.

I'm not sure where, but I remember reading that the Syrian refugee crisis had led to an influx of Christians (who were less likely to flee to other neighbouring countries than Muslim refugees) that pushed the sectarian balance closer to its historical norms. Whether that population puts down roots or proves to be more transient remains to be seen.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by wg_flamip

I'm not sure where, but I remember reading that the Syrian refugee crisis had led to an influx of Christians (who were less likely to flee to other neighbouring countries than Muslim refugees) that pushed the sectarian balance closer to its historical norms. Whether that population puts down roots or proves to be more transient remains to be seen.

That's interesting. I know that the Syrian refugee wave that came to Canada was a lot more Christian (actually Armenian in many cases) than the stereotypes many people have about Syrians and Middle Easterners in general.

[Docere]

Plus churches played a big role in sponsoring refugees.

[Docere]

If I were to take a guess I'd say Arab Canadians are about evenly split between Christians and Muslims.

BTW, "Arab VM" underestimates the Christian proportion, since Arab Christians are less likely to tick off "Arab" on the census and have been in Canada longer (the "old" Arab Canadian community was virtually all Lebanese Christian - the Ghiz family, Paul Anka etc.)

[big W]

Originally Posted by Acajack

The stats I've seen on the Muslim-Christian split in Lebanon were generally around 55-45 in favour of the Muslims. But I assume these were fairly old stats - though not as old as 1930.

The Christian groups have had much higher outmigration rates than the Muslims in the past 40-50 years (and even further back than that), plus the Muslims have had quite a bit of inflow from other countries in the region. Muslims there also have a higher birth rate than Christians who tend to be more westernized/europeanized and have the lower fertility rate that usually follows.

This is just a hunch but it's probably not that big a stretch to think that only a quarter to a third of the people residing in Lebanon right now are Christian. It might even be a bit less.

I believe the numbers were historically closer to 60-40 with more Muslims. One of the things happened in the old stats were the census done by the French skipped parts of the country as they deemed the people not Lebanese. In other areas in the interior close to the border with Syria (northeastern Lebanon) people did not want to recognize the separation of Lebanon from Greater Syria as they were split from nearby towns that are closer to them in Syria vs parts of Lebanon so they did not participate in the French conducted census. The boycott at that time meant that they were not considered Lebanese but rather Syrians by the French. This meant that they were not even granted citizenship by the State and finally got rights in the 1990's. With the majority of these towns being Muslim it mean the numbers even from the Census taken back in the 30's was not correct.

In a Canadian context take a census but don't go into Acadian area of NB and Franco Ontarians boycotting then concluding that there are no francophone areas in Canada outside Quebec and they are all restricted there.

[big W]

Originally Posted by someone123

I didn't realize this but about 1/3 of self-identified Arabs in Canada are Lebanese (approximately 190,000 out of 660,000). Lebanese are maybe the most visible immigrant minority group in the Maritimes and seem pretty prominent in Quebec too. They are are comparatively tiny minority here in BC.

Lebanon makes up around 1% of the world's Arab population.

Canada also has around 80,000 Maronite Catholics, many of whom are from Lebanon originally. There are more Maronites outside of the Middle East now than in the Middle East. There might even be more in Brazil than in Lebanon. Lebanon is around 20% Maronite but Canada's Lebanese minority might be more like 50%.

Interesting examples of how targeted immigration can be. It is far from a random sampling of people from source countries. Sometimes this is for good reasons (certain groups are driven to find better opportunities anywhere) and sometimes bad (active oppression of minorities, or they just happen to come from poor areas without much opportunity).

Part of the historical immigration from Lebanon is due to selection criteria. Lebanese Maronites tended to immigrate earlier than Muslims to western countries earlier due to immigration biases. For example in Canada up until the late 60's we only wanted white Christians for the most part and that meant other people were not even admitted such as Chinese not wanted and not even allowed to be immigrants for example. That's a sign of the times historically which benefited some groups vs others. Current immigration tends to favor education attainment and family which due to the exodus of Lebanese of all groups during the 1970's and 1980's meant the numbers become more balanced over time.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Docere

If I were to take a guess I'd say Arab Canadians are about evenly split between Christians and Muslims.

BTW, "Arab VM" underestimates the Christian proportion, since Arab Christians are less likely to tick off "Arab" on the census and have been in Canada longer (the "old" Arab Canadian community was virtually all Lebanese Christian - the Ghiz family, Paul Anka etc.)

Yeah. It's not uncommon for some people in that community to consider themselves "white" and even in some cases "non-Arab". That's why you have a lot of Lebanese community stuff that's named "Phoenicia" this and "Phoenician" that.

It's also common for people to say that they speak "Lebanese" as opposed to "Arabic".

I've never really noticed people from other Arab countries being that keen on distinguishing themselves from the Arab world. (Though it's not all Lebanese who are like this of course.)

[big W]

Originally Posted by someone123

I didn't realize this but about 1/3 of self-identified Arabs in Canada are Lebanese (approximately 190,000 out of 660,000). Lebanese are maybe the most visible immigrant minority group in the Maritimes and seem pretty prominent in Quebec too. They are are comparatively tiny minority here in BC.

Lebanon makes up around 1% of the world's Arab population.

Canada also has around 80,000 Maronite Catholics, many of whom are from Lebanon originally. There are more Maronites outside of the Middle East now than in the Middle East. There might even be more in Brazil than in Lebanon. Lebanon is around 20% Maronite but Canada's Lebanese minority might be more like 50%.

Interesting examples of how targeted immigration can be. It is far from a random sampling of people from source countries. Sometimes this is for good reasons (certain groups are driven to find better opportunities anywhere) and sometimes bad (active oppression of minorities, or they just happen to come from poor areas without much opportunity).

The reasons for a larger percentage of Lebanese in the Arab community in Canada is due to historical economic development and civil war in the country when we were opening up immigration to Canada. Lebanese had good command of French and were coming from a fairly developed country at the time with good educational attainment. Plus with civil war happening you had mass amounts of people leaving vs say Syria which didn't have this issue (but you see them come now but as refugees).

What this has meant is that there 3 to 4 times more Lebanese outside Lebanon there are in Lebanon today. So Brazil for example has more Lebanese of most denominations in pure numbers than in Lebanon itself. Odd but true.

[big W]

Originally Posted by Acajack

AFAIK... yup. 100% true.

EDIT: In the case of the President, it's actually that he has to be "Christian". Maronites are the largest group of Christians but there are also others like Greek Orthodox, Catholics, etc.

Actually the President must be Maronite Christian (which are Catholics for those who don't know as Maroon was a local saint and the head of the Church is a Bishop) which can annoy some in say the Greek of Armenian orthodox but Maronite's make up 75% of Lebanon's Christian population Let alone the Sunni, Shiite or Druze communities. This actually was in all branches of government like the military and civil service which was one of the major causes of the Civil War. Not a good idea but its history for you.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by big W

Actually the President must be Maronite Christian .

Was that always the case though? It seems to me the had Greek Orthodox presidents as well? Wasn't Élias Sarkis in the 80s Greek Orthodox? Anyway...

Originally Posted by big W

(which are Catholics for those who don't know as Maroon was a local saint and the head of the Church is a Bishop) which can annoy some in say the Greek of Armenian orthodox but Maronite's make up 75% of Lebanon's Christian population .

Maronites form the large majority of Lebanese Christians here in Quebec, and there is tons of intermarriage between them and the Greek Orthodox Lebanese. Several of our family friends are these types of unions.

I've also noticed that the Greek Orthodox Lebanese are somewhat less French-oriented than the Maronites.

Judging from the places some of my Lebanese friends went to school in the old country, the names of the institutions often sound like they're straight out of France or Quebec: Collège du Saint-Nom-de-Marie, Pensionnat de la Sainte-Croix-de-Jésus...

[Capsicum]

Originally Posted by Docere

If I were to take a guess I'd say Arab Canadians are about evenly split between Christians and Muslims.

BTW, "Arab VM" underestimates the Christian proportion, since Arab Christians are less likely to tick off "Arab" on the census and have been in Canada longer (the "old" Arab Canadian community was virtually all Lebanese Christian - the Ghiz family, Paul Anka etc.)

Aren't most Arab-descended populations in western "new world" countries (eg. Canada, US, Australia, Brazil) either more Christian than Muslim, or else evenly split between the two? Perhaps it's different for Europe, for instance France, where immigration from the Middle East did not have as much as the selection factor, but it's probably the case for most "Anglo" countries?

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah. It's not uncommon for some people in that community to consider themselves "white" and even in some cases "non-Arab". That's why you have a lot of Lebanese community stuff that's named "Phoenicia" this and "Phoenician" that.

It's also common for people to say that they speak "Lebanese" as opposed to "Arabic".

I've never really noticed people from other Arab countries being that keen on distinguishing themselves from the Arab world. (Though it's not all Lebanese who are like this of course.)

Not sure what the history of Lebanese, Syrians etc. being considered "white" is in Canada, but I thought I've seen some old historical references to them being considered "Asiatic" even alongside categories like "Hebrews".

I think the reason why Middle Easterners are considered "white" on the US census for instance was they wanted to avoid being considered "Asian" or "Asiatic" during the time of the Asian exclusion acts. But some today want to make Arab/Middle Easterner a new category.

I think in a lot of western countries, Mediterranean Middle Easterners like Lebanese, Syrians were considered "white" if Italians, Greeks were also considered "white". People from further south in Africa than North Africa, or farther east in Asia than the Middle East, who could not overlap as much in perceived appearance to Mediterranean Europeans, were excluded from the category.

Also, regarding Arabic-speaking people who don't want to be considered Arab, besides Lebanese, I have heard a few friends growing up who were Egyptian Coptic Christian in background who wanted to be considered just Egyptian, not Arab. Some other Arabic-speaking Middle Easterners of Christian background, I've heard also don't necessarily like the Arab label, for instance, the Assyrians, Chaldeans of the area around Iraq, Syria etc. Some reason that they don't see themselves as Arabs as they had ancestors who were Christians prior to the Arab conquests of the Middle East.

[Acajack]

As a kid, I never would have intuitively thought that people like Ralph Nader, Casey Kasem or Cpl. Maxwell Klinger weren't white. At least no less white than Italians or Greeks. (Who we are all considered white in my books and by everyone I knew.)

The same goes for Céline Dion's late husband René Angélil.

[Capsicum]

I'm guessing Middle Easterners weren't barred from immigrating in parts of the 20th century like the peoples from farther east like East Indians, Chinese etc., in order for there to be an "old" immigrant-descended community, especially in Quebec and eastern Canada.

I'm also guessing early Middle Easterners/Arabs mostly arrived via more similar routes as Europeans, crossing the Atlantic, unlike the Pacific-crossing Sikhs, Chinese etc.

Googling the areas excluded from immigrating to the US based on historical map, seems to give an "east of the Middle East" definition which seems to have survived in the common usage of "Asian", which includes East, Southeast or South Asians in many English-speaking countries, but rarely Arabs.

Though this map is from the US, I assume Canada is similar in which areas were excluded from the Asian ban (eg. the Indian Subcontinent and East/SE Asia).

[Docere]

It's interesting to note how prominent the Lebanese community has been in Atlantic Canada - PEI premiers Joseph and Robert Ghiz, Charlottetown mayor Frank Zakem, Newfoundland NDP leader Lorraine Michael, Liberal MP Paul Zed, Ann-Marie Macdonald (half-Lebanese).

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Docere

It's interesting to note how prominent the Lebanese community has been in Atlantic Canada - PEI premiers Joseph and Robert Ghiz, Charlottetown mayor Frank Zakem, Newfoundland NDP leader Lorraine Michael, Liberal MP Paul Zed, Ann-Marie Macdonald (half-Lebanese).

Yes, they're a genuinely historical Canadian minority group that no one in our identity group-obsessed time seems to have the slightest interest in. The imbalance of interest between them and, say, African Nova Scotians, is curious. I must have heard about 50 earnest CBC radio documentaries about Halifax's "Africville" in my time, but I don't think I've ever heard a peep about the historic Lebanese community out there. Even when Joe Ghiz became Canada's first non-European-backgrounded premier, it seemed like no one noticed.

[Docere]

I'm going to have to look it up - what was the largest early 20th century non-Charter immigrant group in the Maritimes?

It wasn't much of an immigrant reception area after Confederation at all, though industrialized Cape Breton had a bit of diversity in the early 20th century.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Andy6

Yes, they're a genuinely historical Canadian minority group that no one in our identity group-obsessed time seems to have the slightest interest in. The imbalance of interest between them and, say, African Nova Scotians, is curious. I must have heard about 50 earnest CBC radio documentaries about Halifax's "Africville" in my time, but I don't think I've ever heard a peep about the historic Lebanese community out there. Even when Joe Ghiz became Canada's first non-European-backgrounded premier, it seemed like no one noticed.

There might be an unwitting compliment in that, though.

They're so well integrated that no one really notices they're "different".

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Docere

I'm going to have to look it up - what was the largest early 20th century non-Charter immigrant group in the Maritimes?

It wasn't much of an immigrant reception area after Confederation at all, though industrialized Cape Breton had a bit of diversity in the early 20th century.

"(N)on-Charter immigrant group"?

[wg_flamip]

Originally Posted by Capsicum

Aren't most Arab-descended populations in western "new world" countries (eg. Canada, US, Australia, Brazil) either more Christian than Muslim, or else evenly split between the two? Perhaps it's different for Europe, for instance France, where immigration from the Middle East did not have as much as the selection factor, but it's probably the case for most "Anglo" countries?

What's different for Europe is immigration from the overwhelmingly Muslim Maghreb—something which hasn't been much of a factor elsewhere aside from Quebec*. Like their counterparts in the Americas and Australia, I would imagine that Arabic-speaking immigrant groups from the Middle East (e.g., Syria, Lebanon or Iraq) are disproportionately Christian in Europe.

*Except Israel, although with obvious differences.

[Docere]

To answer my own question, for the Maritimes, 1931 census:

Jewish 3,328
Italian 2,302
Other Asiatic 1,992
Polish 1,609

https://ia800304.us.archive.org/17/i...1933engfra.pdf