Salt Lake MSA Development Thread

[Future Mayor]

I'm with McAdams on this one. 5.3 million gallons of water a day, potentially, worst case scenario, but the city must allocate that water, even if it never happens. That is a tremendous amount of water, in a dessert, particularly when Riverton is getting there PI shut off due to low water levels in Utah Lake. That is a tremendous tax incentive for an initial 130 jobs.

This state has a serious water problem and it is not going to resolve itself. Every city that has pressurized irrigation must install meters and make the fees HEFTY is users go over a certain amount of gallons a month. Yes some people voluntarily water as they should, but some people simply don't give a shit, and they will water every night, because they are lazy and aren't willing to actually educate themselves on how to properly water their lawn. For instance, based on it's current population, Payson City will save roughly 30% of its pressurized irrigation water, once the entire city has meters installed and the city starts charging by usage.

There are still many cities that require massive amounts of lawn as part of new residential development, rather than encouraging xeriscaping. The traditional suburban sprawl patterns with 1/4, 1/3, and 1/2 acre lots with lots of grass needs to change. True impact fees need to be implemented and all cities need to have and meter a PI system. Yes Salt Lake City too, needs to install a PI system.

Massive amounts of population growth just for the sake of growth is not a positive thing, when it continues to put a massive strain on our resources, and air quality.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I'm with McAdams on this one. 5.3 million gallons of water a day, potentially, worst case scenario, but the city must allocate that water, even if it never happens. That is a tremendous amount of water, in a dessert, particularly when Riverton is getting there PI shut off due to low water levels in Utah Lake. That is a tremendous tax incentive for an initial 130 jobs.

Salt Lake County is not a desert, not even a dessert. It's a semi-arid region.

$240 million seems alarming, but as $185 million is just from property tax abatement and doesn't result in an actual payment of any funds, I'm fine with that aspect. The water is a concern, but the people who manage the water say they have enough to provide this facility with the water it needs. It seems like a lot, though. One thing to consider is that, once the water is used by this data center, it doesn't disappear. Water used at the NSA data center is sent back to Bluffdale once it's been used, and Bluffdale uses it to water their parks and other city properties. I wish these data centers would install underground water tanks to store the water after use and bring down the temperature to recycle it for use in cooling in the future. That could save a lot of water.

According to the Utah legislature, 5.2 million acre feet of water is diverted for use annually in Utah. 82% is used by agriculture, 18% by homes, businesses and other uses, with 4% of the 18 for indoor use. According to Kyle's Converter, 5.2 million acre feet converts into 1.7 Trillion gallons of water.

5.3 million gallons x 365 days = 1,934,500,000 gallons. 1,934,500,000 / 1,694,427,428,571 = .00114168359. 5.3 million gallons sounds like a lot, but .00114... doesn't sound like a lot of water.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Salt Lake County is not a desert, not even a dessert. It's a semi-arid region.

$240 million seems alarming, but as $185 million is just from reduced property taxes and doesn't result in an actual payment of any funds, I'm fine with that aspect. The water is a concern, but the people who manage the water say they have enough to provide this facility with the water it needs. It seems like a lot, though. One thing to consider is that, once the water is used by this data center, it doesn't disappear. Water used at the NSA data center is sent back to Bluffdale once it's been used, and Bluffdale uses it to water their parks and other city properties. I wish these data centers would install underground water tanks to store the water after use and bring down the temperature to recycle it for use in cooling in the future. That could save a lot of water.

According to the Utah legislature, 5.2 million acre feet of water is diverted for use annually in Utah. 82% is used by agriculture, 18% by homes, businesses and other uses, with 4% of the 18 for indoor use. According to Kyle's Converter, 5.2 million acre feet converts into 1.7 Trillion gallons of water.

5.3 million gallons x 365 days = 1,934,500,000 gallons. 1,934,500,000 / 1,694,427,428,571 = .00114168359. 5.3 million gallons sounds like a lot, but .00114... doesn't sound like a lot of water.

I realize that a large chunk of the money is not an actual payment of money to Facebook, that is why I referred to it as TIF, Tax Increment Financing, which as I have described many times in relation to other issues such as the CCH is not money actually given to the company. $1.42 million per initial job seems like a pretty substantial amount of incentive. Even if the jobs triples over that 20 years to 390 new jobs, that is still $474,359 per job on the TIF.

As a reference point, the three most recent incentives provided by the GOED were as follows:

- Decorworx expansion in Cedar City; anticipated 164 additional jobs, projected state tax revenues estimated at $1,590,621 over 8 years up to $318,124 in 8 years in tax reductions with an anticipated 164 additional jobs = $1,929 per job.

- Duncan Aviation expansion; up to 700 jobs, projected state tax revenues estimated at $19,857,070 over 15 years. Up to $5,557,121 in tax breaks and a $400,000 grant = $8,510 per job

Press Ganey opening a Utah Office; up to 97 new jobs, projected state tax revenues estimated at $2,981,166 over five years. Up to $447,175 in tax breaks = $4,610 per job.

I also realize that the water isn't gone, once it is used, but it does need to be available and accounted for.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I realize that a large chunk of the money is not an actual payment of money to Facebook, that is why I referred to it as TIF, Tax Increment Financing, which as I have described many times in relation to other issues such as the CCH is not money actually given to the company. $1.42 million per initial job seems like a pretty substantial amount of incentive. Even if the jobs triples over that 20 years to 390 new jobs, that is still $474,359 per job on the TIF.

As a reference point, the three most recent incentives provided by the GOED were as follows:

- Decorworx expansion in Cedar City; anticipated 164 additional jobs, projected state tax revenues estimated at $1,590,621 over 8 years up to $318,124 in 8 years in tax reductions with an anticipated 164 additional jobs = $1,929 per job.

- Duncan Aviation expansion; up to 700 jobs, projected state tax revenues estimated at $19,857,070 over 15 years. Up to $5,557,121 in tax breaks and a $400,000 grant = $8,510 per job

Press Ganey opening a Utah Office; up to 97 new jobs, projected state tax revenues estimated at $2,981,166 over five years. Up to $447,175 in tax breaks = $4,610 per job.

I also realize that the water isn't gone, once it is used, but it does need to be available and accounted for.

I still don't think the amount matters, when it's essentially fake money. No money is being paid to FB, so it's not really costing $1.42 million per job.

Perhaps Jordan Valley Water ought to send FB 'toilet water' to cool their data center, instead of dumping it into the JR/GSL. That's what Google uses at at least one of their data centers.*

*Google Flushes Data Center Heat with Toilet Water

[Merewether]

Not sure this report "Salt Lake County Small Area Estimates 2010-2014"
from Gardner Policy Institute at U has been noted.
http://gardner.utah.edu/salt-lake-co...tes-2010-2014/
You will not be surprised to read that most growth is in SW county but that areas along Trax / I15 spine , including greater downtown, have also gained.

[i-215]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Perhaps Jordan Valley Water ought to send FB 'toilet water' to cool their data center, instead of dumping it into the JR/GSL. That's what Google uses at at least one of their data centers.

Not a bad idea, actually.

[JMK]

West Jordan pulls plug on Facebook data center deal

http://www.ksl.com/?sid=41188475&nid...ta-center-deal

The $250 million tax break deal to lure a massive Facebook data center to West Jordan collapsed Tuesday.

After working with Facebook for more than a year on the secretive Project Discus, West Jordan city officials killed the deal immediately after the Utah State Board of Education voted to approve only the first phase of the 20-year deal, capping the total tax incentive at $100 million.

...


Jordan School District and West Jordan City Council supported Discus, arguing it was worthwhile investment to spur economic development on the longtime vacant land producing little tax revenue.

Salt Lake County Mayor Ben McAdams and the County Council unanimously opposed the deal, ripping the project for rebating too much in taxpayer money for a facility that would only attract 70 to 130 jobs.

If Facebook had built a data center on the 230-acre plot, it would have generated more than $217 million in new property taxes over 20 years. Of that, local taxing entities would only have received $33 million because the deal would have allowed more than $183 million in property tax breaks.

[ryerop]

http://www.sltrib.com/home/4274936-1...-now-says-deal

The day after West Jordan yanked an unprecedented tax-incentive offer to entice Facebook to build a data center on its west side, city officials signaled a very different message: that the deal is not yet dead.

A statement posted to the City Hall's Facebook page Wednesday morning reads: "This is too good of an opportunity for Utah to pass up, so we have been working throughout the night and will continue through the day to keep the project alive."


Apparently they cant make up their minds if the want Facebook or not out there. It could be a good push to help other stuff come in, I guess time will tell if they kill the deal or not though

[Highrise_Mike]

I don't know if this has already been posted on here but I found a couple renderings of the 11-story Gardner building that is going to be built next to the new Hales theater. It has 320,000 square feet of office space and they are building a parking structure between this building and the theater. I also saw a sign out on site for it but I am not entirely sure when construction will start.





*Renderings are from: http://gardnercompany.net/portfolio-...-center-plaza/

[TonyAnderson]

Regarding the FB data center, it's not much of a win. Basically they want cheap, available land and water to house some servers. There's very few jobs in it, and not really something that grows into more jobs, like we've seen with places such as Ebay. And Utah's at that point where we have no trouble attracting tech companies with actual jobs.

But hey I'm never really opposed to something useless that's going to take up a bunch of space in the suburbs. The quicker they're out of room, the better.

[bflatflat9]

Originally Posted by Highrise_Mike

I don't know if this has already been posted on here but I found a couple renderings of the 11-story Gardner building that is going to be built next to the new Hales theater. It has 320,000 square feet of office space and they are building a parking structure between this building and the theater. I also saw a sign out on site for it but I am not entirely sure when construction will start.





*Renderings are from: http://gardnercompany.net/portfolio-...-center-plaza/

Before I clicked on the picture, I said at 320,000 sq. ft. and 11 stories, it'll be 12 stories wide. I was wrong. It's more like 11 x 15.

[DCRes]

I theater and a glass box office tower, huh? See, Sandy really is just like downtown

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by DCRes

I theater and a glass box office tower, huh? See, Sandy really is just like downtown

It is, after all, the "Other Downtown"

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by DCRes

I theater and a glass box office tower, huh? See, Sandy really is just like downtown

They do a lot better job than any other suburb though, and at least seems like they're trying to create some sort of core / downtown. I'd take that over the West Jordan's and Lehi's anyday.

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

They do a lot better job than any other suburb though, and at least seems like they're trying to create some sort of core / downtown. I'd take that over the West Jordan's and Lehi's anyday.

As much as I can't stand Sandy, I do agree with you. While I do make fun of some of their grandious plans, they are at least trying, better to shoot for the stars and land on the moon, 3-40 story skyscrapers and maybe eventually end up with 2-15 story towers, rather than shooting for 3-15 story buildings and end up with more of what they already have. They may be missing the mark on a few things, like allowing the building to the south of the Post Office to expand their parking lot, but eventually it might be a bit of an urban center. The addition of the housing directly to the east of this, behind City Hall will be a good addition to the overall urban nature. They have a long way to go, but I think they are making progress, and at least they are willing to think differently than most suburban areas, which shun anything related to a true downtown.

Downtown Sandy is never going to compete with Salt Lake City, Ogden or Provo, simply because it doesn't have the history, character, street grid or diversity of building stock that those three places have. It may attract more office workers than Ogden or Provo, but it won't compete on attractions and vibe. Yes it is still better than faux downtowns like The District or Farmington Station.

[Future Mayor]

Speaking of Sandy, I noticed today on my drive through this morning that the Dillards sign is gone of their store at South Towne. I checked the Dillards website and it no longer lists South Towne as a location. I have also noticed that there is some sort of construction going on directly NW or what was Dillards. My guess is that with the newer, larger store they opened at Fashion Place, that they no longer saw a need for the ST location. While I'm sure the mall operator wouldn't want to do it, this would be a good time to start to transition that area into more of a grid, continuing it from the area to the north.

[billbillbillbill]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Speaking of Sandy, I noticed today on my drive through this morning that the Dillards sign is gone of their store at South Towne. I checked the Dillards website and it no longer lists South Towne as a location. I have also noticed that there is some sort of construction going on directly NW or what was Dillards. My guess is that with the newer, larger store they opened at Fashion Place, that they no longer saw a need for the ST location. While I'm sure the mall operator wouldn't want to do it, this would be a good time to start to transition that area into more of a grid, continuing it from the area to the north.

The construction is the continuation of Monroe Street that I believe is supposed to connect to the I-15 interchange some time in the future. As for Dillards, they closed last year and turned the store into an outlet clearance center for 6 months or so then closed it this spring. I have to wonder if Macy's will have the same thing happen to it when the new Fashion Place Mall store opens. I know Valley Fair is shutting down and the clock is ticking on Cottonwood.

[Stenar]

I do like this building that Gardner is building in Sandy. I feel it's more appropriate for Sandy than some of the other proposals we've seen over the years and because Gardner is behind it, it's much more likely to be built than all of the other crazy projects thrown out there.

Originally Posted by Highrise_Mike

I don't know if this has already been posted on here but I found a couple renderings of the 11-story Gardner building that is going to be built next to the new Hales theater. It has 320,000 square feet of office space and they are building a parking structure between this building and the theater. I also saw a sign out on site for it but I am not entirely sure when construction will start.



*Renderings are from: http://gardnercompany.net/portfolio-...-center-plaza/

[CCs77]

What I don't like of that building is that on the street side they put up the parking lot. Tey should have put the parking on the highway side and make a better front to the street with the building. It ends up having that suburban typology.

[Highrise_Mike]

I agree, the parking and building should swap sides. If Sandy is really going for that urban/downtown feel, the building should definitely be up to the street. The problem is the developers are always fight hard for parking in front of buildings in suburban areas and they don't understand or care about the concept of street engagement. In this case I imagine Gardner put it next to the freeway because the future tenant wants the freeway visibility.