HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForumSkyscraper Posters
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Europe

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #1  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2006, 7:26 PM
LouisianaRush's Avatar
LouisianaRush LouisianaRush is offline
Baltimore
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 2,787
The United States of Europe

I have just finished reading a fantastic book called The United States of Europe The new superpower and the end of American supremacy

It is a must read for the Generation E crowd. It was written by an American who moved to Europe. He is trying show how most of the U.S. is ignoring European unification and how it is affecting us and the world. After reading this book I have a new found trust and hope for the EU.
__________________
Geaux Tigers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2006, 7:30 PM
Mazepa's Avatar
Mazepa Mazepa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 129
That would be terrible. Hopefully EU will never become anything near a united country. A loose alliance is all it should be. Single currency is a bit too much as it is.

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #3  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2006, 8:11 PM
Grumpy's Avatar
Grumpy Grumpy is offline
Honored Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 6,338
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonRush
After reading this book I have a new found trust and hope for the EU.
There wil never be a so called one European super nation.
The EU as a trade organisation is fine but that is enough imo (I already lost my national currency)...

I know the Blue Army here (...) is going to be cheerful to read threads like these, not me.
Isn't the EU not becoming another monkey of the USA ?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #4  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2006, 9:10 PM
Exarchus's Avatar
Exarchus Exarchus is offline
Gascons aren't Vascons
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palladia Tolosa
Posts: 2,992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy
Isn't the EU not becoming another monkey of the USA ?
Yeah it does.

For a part because some countries:

1st: See the USA as an extension of their culture and are reminded the good old times of their empire.

2nd: Are still terrorised by the idea of Soviet tanks rolling on their capitals and support everything from the other side of the atlantic. Including illegal jails were people were imprisoned without charges.


Now I take cover because the Blue Army is gonna try to nuke me.
__________________
Blahblah
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2006, 10:20 PM
Nexus6's Avatar
Nexus6 Nexus6 is offline
SSC expat
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Frankfurt
Posts: 1,071
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2006, 10:35 PM
Jonas's Avatar
Jonas Jonas is offline
fried white rice
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Greater London, UK
Posts: 1,308
EC was established as a common market and this idea is truly great. Some further integration of particular areas is fine but I see no need (and more importantly possibility) to move towards political integration (hence something what could be called "United States of Europe" as the topic title is suggesting ).

What EU should establish as their No.1 priority is competitiveness of the markets because we seem to be lagging further and further behind USA and eventually (will be lagging) behind many Asian countries (we already are, compared to some of them).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #7  
Old Posted Sep 23, 2006, 11:20 PM
Mazepa's Avatar
Mazepa Mazepa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 129
Actually if EU does move into this direction, it will resemble Soviet Union in some ways. Fake "soviet" man, created out of 30+ nationalities, is what would become of a "European" man. Well, perhaps this would be the only similarity, but still
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #8  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 8:00 AM
Swede's Avatar
Swede Swede is offline
YIMBY co-founder
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: sol.III.eu.se.08
Posts: 6,705
^Once again people are confusing nation with country. Should the EU move from confederacy (today) to federal (USE) it will in no way mean creating a new nation to replace the old ones. Nation is more of a cultural concept and going Borg and merging all the European cultures is just plain ludicrus - I guess that's why anti-EU people often mention it when discussing a closer, more democratic Union.
The first reforms that have to take place wether or not we're gonna move towards a USE is incresing the democratic input in the EU - this is easily done by moving as much power as possible from the Comission and the shadowy Council of Ministers to the Parliament. Few EU citizens realize that most EU power actually lies with the national goverments! the CoM is where it's at, the Parliament is still sadly lacking in power. But any reform to change that and give the ones elected specifically for the EU level power over the EU is usually rejected on the grounds that it's creating either a USE (by left-wingers) or a new Soviet Union (by right-wingers).
__________________
Forumers met so far:
Huopa, Nightsky, Jo, wolkenkrabber, ThisSideofSteinway, jacksom, New Jack City, LeCom, Ellatur, Jan, Dennis, Ace, Bardamu, AtlanticaC5, Ringil, Dysfunctional, stacey, karakhal, ch1le, Hviid, staff, kjetilab, Þróndeimr, queetz, FREKI, sander, Blue Viking, nomels, Mantas, ristov, Rafal_T, khaan, Chilenofuturista, Jonte Myra, safta20, AW, Pas, Jarmo K, IceCheese, Sideshow_Bob, sk, Ingenioren, Ayreonaut, Silver Creations, Hasse78, Svartmetall
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #9  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 10:06 AM
pricemazda's Avatar
pricemazda pricemazda is offline
Uniting Europe
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Europe
Posts: 4,587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exarchus
Yeah it does.

For a part because some countries:

1st: See the USA as an extension of their culture and are reminded the good old times of their empire.

2nd: Are still terrorised by the idea of Soviet tanks rolling on their capitals and support everything from the other side of the atlantic. Including illegal jails were people were imprisoned without charges.


Now I take cover because the Blue Army is gonna try to nuke me.
Stop peddling your prejudices. France has always tried to shape Europe in its own image, De Gaulle certainly viewed it as an extension of France. The UK and others are actually better europeans than France who has one of the worst records in actually implementing EU law.

Detritus, most people in the UK want a more independent foreign policy, hell even Margaret Thatcher had arguments with Reagan.

Anyway the USE won't happen with a signing of a treaty and overnight all 25 nations disappear. It will occur gradually, so one day we will look back and realise we are basically operating as one country.

But Swede is right their is a difference between nation and state, the UK is a good example of this we have a multi-national state with Welsh, English, Scottish and Northern Irish all being the constituent nations that make up the UK state.

You can have more than one identity, I am English, British and European.
__________________
Supporting the unification of Europe since 1981.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #10  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 11:08 AM
Exarchus's Avatar
Exarchus Exarchus is offline
Gascons aren't Vascons
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Palladia Tolosa
Posts: 2,992
There is something great here. It's "stop peddling your prejudices" and puting "France has always been trying to shape Europe in its own image" right next to it.

You know, Britain has never been interested in Europe. It's only goal is to build a "free trade zone", so you can say whatever you want people were cheering in Britain when France (and The Netherlands) turned the constitutional treaty down. Why do you think Blair postponed (until forever?) the referendum? Because he would have lost, and it's more convenient to use France as the boogeyman. But it takes more than that to fool people. Why do you think Britain is so favourable to the Turkish membership. Do you believe any second a political union with a country having the most powerful demographic of the Union and one of the poorest not to mention most of it is in asia will be possible?

Anyway: http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/344161.asp
__________________
Blahblah

Last edited by Exarchus; Sep 24, 2006 at 11:23 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #11  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 11:50 AM
pricemazda's Avatar
pricemazda pricemazda is offline
Uniting Europe
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Europe
Posts: 4,587
You don't think that the UK in the past was used as the boogeyman on EU issues.

Lets take the recent decision on removing the veto on Justice and Home Affairs, before Blair the UK would have been screaming from the rooftops, threatening walkouts and vetos. This allowed other member states who were just as hostile to whatever the proposal to stay quiet and let the UK govt take the flak.

But now, its Germany that pulled the plug on JHA. All I am saying is that the UK isn't the bad european that people like to think we are.

France and Germany take the longest to transpose EU law, they have the most cases in the ECJ against them. The UK is near the top of the list of implementing EU law.

My point is, that the picture is much more mixed than you would like to believe.
__________________
Supporting the unification of Europe since 1981.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #12  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 12:00 PM
Mercutio's Avatar
Mercutio Mercutio is offline
Veni Vidi Vici
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: London
Posts: 1,148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exarchus
Yeah it does.

For a part because some countries:

1st: See the USA as an extension of their culture and are reminded the good old times of their empire.

2nd: Are still terrorised by the idea of Soviet tanks rolling on their capitals and support everything from the other side of the atlantic. Including illegal jails were people were imprisoned without charges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exarchus
There is something great here. It's "stop peddling your prejudices" and puting "France has always been trying to shape Europe in its own image" right next to it.

You know, Britain has never been interested in Europe. It's only goal is to build a "free trade zone", so you can say whatever you want people were cheering in Britain when France (and The Netherlands) turned the constitutional treaty down. Why do you think Blair postponed (until forever?) the referendum? Because he would have lost, and it's more convenient to use France as the boogeyman. But it takes more than that to fool people. Why do you think Britain is so favourable to the Turkish membership. Do you believe any second a political union with a country having the most powerful demographic of the Union and one of the poorest not to mention most of it is in asia will be possible?
Stop trying to blame Britain. There is nothing to stop France and Germany (and whichever other countries want to join...) from dissolving their nationhood and becoming one. However I see no enthusiasm for that idea in either country. France has recently voted against the EU Constitution and now persues a policy of "economic patriotism" which is totally contrary to the spirit and letter of the EU's single market.

Britain has become a very good European. We have paid more into the EU budget than any other country aside from Germany. We were one of the only countries that opened up full and immediate freedom for citizens from the new EU members to work/settle here in Britain. Britons own more properties in other EU states than the citizens of any other country. We have established the best transport links with the rest of the EU. We do not protect our companies from foreign takeovers - we respect the single market ideal.

And I think it's France's relations with the US that are unhealthy - not Britain's. Britain sees the US as an ally and a fellow democrat. France's combination of ingratitude for American protection, envy of her success and power, and pointless bloody-minded hostility, seems totally counter-productive. Why do the French see hostility to America as a necessary part of being "European"? I have never understood why agreeing with America somehow compromises your independence. Is France really saying that the only independent foreign policy stance is anti-American? That's absurd!!

And I want to bring Turkey into the EU not to destroy it but to save it from economic decline. Europe faces a formidable economic challenge from America and Asia and the best way to meet that challenge is to give our companies, especially our manufacturers, the opportunity to seek the lowest possible costs within our own customs borders. Europe's problem is not its' lack of political integration but its' lack of economic dynamism.

Last edited by Mercutio; Sep 24, 2006 at 12:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #13  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 1:29 PM
FREKI's Avatar
FREKI FREKI is offline
Kicking it Viking style..
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 6,926
The EU is a lose agreement and should NEVER turn into more than that...

I'm first and foremost Danish, then Scandinavian and then European, no way in heck that is going to change in my lifetime!

Now a unified Scandinavia - that would be somewhat accepable, if the royal families somehow could remain their titles and land!
__________________
Recent FREKI PRESENTS threads:
Prague - Denmark - The Wild Wild West - Dubai - Phuket - Shanghai
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 1:56 PM
Oberleutnant's Avatar
Oberleutnant Oberleutnant is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Jyväskylä/Helsinki, Finland
Posts: 68
As Swede explained it, nothing is going to happen to your Danish identity with further integration. EU is a sum of its member states and nowhere majority of the people wish it to become United States of Europe - there's no reason for anyone to jump to the barricades and claim there is so some sort of conspiracy to turn us all into European zombies, who hum Ode to Joy and stand proudly under the waving blue-yellow flag of stars.

Whenever discussion turns to EU people's opinions get highly polarized. If we streamline the bureaucracy and the bloated decision-making apparatus that's only good. There's no way EU should be in this condition as it is now. In the long run it's only going to have stagnating effect on everything. Personally, my biggest gripe is the agricultural subsidies. Instead of handing out huge sums of money to farmers in France and Poland, that money could be well invested in R&D, for example.

If my four weeks in student exchange have proven me anything, it's that I'm European first and foremost by mindset. Especially the young urban people, no matter where from the "western world" they come from, they're greatly alike. My home country is the only place where I would want to live for a longer time and I love it a lot, but it doesn't stop me from having several identities: Finnish and European.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #15  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 2:50 PM
LouisianaRush's Avatar
LouisianaRush LouisianaRush is offline
Baltimore
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Baltimore
Posts: 2,787
I believe I am a Louisianan 1st and an American 2nd. Many people across the country believe the same way (especially Texas). I have not lost my heritage, but I enjoy all the benefits of the United States.
__________________
Geaux Tigers
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #16  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 2:52 PM
Accura's Avatar
Accura Accura is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Preston UK/Orillia ON
Posts: 139
If Europe became one nation, imagine how much terrorism there would be from people who want to become indpendant again. Europe doesnt need those kind of problems. We have suffered enough over the past few centuries.


Its nice to trash the Americans as a united Europe in the golf though
__________________
Viva la Manchester
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #17  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 3:28 PM
dimondpark's Avatar
dimondpark dimondpark is offline
FiveTen Represent!?!
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Zurich, Switzerland & Piedmont, California
Posts: 6,396
Interesting topic.

How has Europe's economy performed since the inception of the EU?

HoustonRush,
I am an American first. I do not believe that California would have attracted the millions of people from around the world(including my family)nor would it be the social bellweather and economic titan that it has become were it not part of the United States.
__________________

"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—I took the one less traveled by, And that has made all the difference."-Robert Frost
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #18  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 3:51 PM
Mazepa's Avatar
Mazepa Mazepa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonRush
I believe I am a Louisianan 1st and an American 2nd. Many people across the country believe the same way (especially Texas). I have not lost my heritage, but I enjoy all the benefits of the United States.
That's absolutely irrelevent here. American states are like regions within any and every country in Europe. For instance Bavaria, in Germany, would be like your Texas in U.S.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #19  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 5:13 PM
Swede's Avatar
Swede Swede is offline
YIMBY co-founder
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: sol.III.eu.se.08
Posts: 6,705
^It is not irrelevant. It is not a perfect analogy, but it is valid. Another good one would be Canada - Quebec vs the rest. A very distinct cultural difference.
However, your US/Germany - Texas/Bavaria one is good too There are many levels to identity and culture, in the end MY identity is up to ME and when two cultures are two seperate cultures or merely sub-cultures is a matter of perspective and opinion. Even the "nation" concept is a social construct.

@Mr D - a united Scandinavia, or better, Nordica would be great. If Norway and Iceland join the EU and Sweden and Finland join NATO we'd already be there in most ways.

@accura - Again nation does not equal country/state. Just because Europe is today dominated by nation-states doesn't mean this is the only way things can be. Also, don't make the mistake of thinking nationhood is static, cultures and perceptions of it change.
Further, to say we'd have seperatist terrorists all over the continent is way to grim IMO and misses one of the core principles in the EU - Human Rights (one of which is democracy). Terrorism is at its very core irrational, but ita twisted logic is usually defeated when given an opportunity to gain independence thru peaceful means (like referendi). And even when the referendi aren't respected things can be peaceful anyway (like when Åland wasn't made Swedish despite its people voting for that, it's an autonomus part of Finland and it's worked out pretty damn good).
__________________
Forumers met so far:
Huopa, Nightsky, Jo, wolkenkrabber, ThisSideofSteinway, jacksom, New Jack City, LeCom, Ellatur, Jan, Dennis, Ace, Bardamu, AtlanticaC5, Ringil, Dysfunctional, stacey, karakhal, ch1le, Hviid, staff, kjetilab, Þróndeimr, queetz, FREKI, sander, Blue Viking, nomels, Mantas, ristov, Rafal_T, khaan, Chilenofuturista, Jonte Myra, safta20, AW, Pas, Jarmo K, IceCheese, Sideshow_Bob, sk, Ingenioren, Ayreonaut, Silver Creations, Hasse78, Svartmetall
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #20  
Old Posted Sep 24, 2006, 5:36 PM
Mazepa's Avatar
Mazepa Mazepa is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 129
The question is, do people of EU member countries are ready to put their Europeanunion identity over their national one?
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Europe
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:25 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.