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  #41  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 12:17 PM
Marre Marre is offline
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Indeed London is thankful for having the London Underground, ut it only got it for two reason:
- High density and immense catchments
- Private investment (the London Underground was built by private companies and wealthy individuals)
Yeah I know, which leaves me surprised that my nearets city (Newcastle) has it's own underground metro system (albiet much much smaller) when the loadings don't really justify it. A street running tram network would have been more appropriate I reckon.

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How has London been doing pretty well? Unable to build the likes of Crossrail because of funds being diverted elsewhere, it has had to explore Congestion Charging and other measures to try and control pollution, noise, and traffic congestion. The poorest wards in the country, aren't in the north, they are slap bang in London and it so happens that Crossrail would actually go through these areas.
The Docklands is quite good, sure the Tories designated that as some sort of special economic area back when ti wasn't so good.

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The north isn't solely reliant upon the south, but without the south, most services would collapse...Keep in mind that the NHS budget for 2006-07 is £96bn.....the south is loosing something like £30bn each each; it doesn't take a genius to work out that if the south stopped the flow of money, there would have to be large cut backs in public services of which the north is already too heavily dependent upon. And that is the problem: the north has far too many public sector jobs and not enough private sector jobs. Without private jobs, there aren't going to be many internal or external investors which means innovation is held back forcing a stagnation of the economy. It could be argued that axing these jobs would be of a benefit to the north so that it forces a mass-reorganisation to push forward.
I agree.

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I think you'll find that the mud-slinging isn't started by southerners, its started by northerners, with southerners responding with the cold truth. This thread is case in example.
That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation, it's like you're casting judgements against entire swathes of people based on what you've read/heard from others.
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  #42  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 3:41 PM
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Downtown Bolivar Downtown Bolivar is offline
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This is extremely entertaining reading--it reminds me the arguments we get into in New York State about Upstate versus NYC. The fact is that enormous cities like London, and their residents don't realize the enormous cost to other regions. Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham Vs. London--Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse Vs. NYC. You will hear the very same arguments from NYC that Nick Taylor uses for London. Usually it amounts to "quit crying because you are recieving a nice subsidy from us. The subsidy comes with a steep price--government corruption, absurd regulations that only hurt smaller cities, tax costs associated with those regulations, which all result in unattractive places to do business and economic doldrums. So thanks for nothing.
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  #43  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 3:51 PM
nito nito is offline
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Originally Posted by Marre View Post
Yeah I know, which leaves me surprised that my nearets city (Newcastle) has it's own underground metro system (albiet much much smaller) when the loadings don't really justify it. A street running tram network would have been more appropriate I reckon.

The Docklands is quite good, sure the Tories designated that as some sort of special economic area back when ti wasn't so good.

I agree.

That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation, it's like you're casting judgements against entire swathes of people based on what you've read/heard from others.
Indeed it would, but it had the sufficient alignments to allow for its construction. Birmingham and Manchester don't offer this.

The Tories might have started it off, but they invested very little. The DLR was originally meant to be a sort of something just above a bus....so much for that, its had to undergo hefty re-investment to bring the entire network up to higher standards to allow for more services and longer trains.

Well you don't get much of it in the south....rarely do you see threads on forums or discussions on the north being idiots...in fact it tends to be in response to something said by a northerner.
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  #44  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 3:54 PM
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  #45  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 4:23 PM
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^What? What is that even supposed to mean? it just looks like a failed falme-baiting (failed due to language skills, or rather, the lack thereof).
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  #46  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 4:30 PM
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  #47  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 7:16 PM
Marre Marre is offline
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Originally Posted by nick_taylor View Post
Indeed it would, but it had the sufficient alignments to allow for its construction. Birmingham and Manchester don't offer this.

The Tories might have started it off, but they invested very little. The DLR was originally meant to be a sort of something just above a bus....so much for that, its had to undergo hefty re-investment to bring the entire network up to higher standards to allow for more services and longer trains.

Well you don't get much of it in the south....rarely do you see threads on forums or discussions on the north being idiots...in fact it tends to be in response to something said by a northerner.
To be fair Birmingham and Manchester have used old heavy rail alignments for their tram networks. The Tyne & Wear metro system uses much of the old third rail suburban network with some new stretches. Quite unusual for such a project to take place in the UK I feel (a new underground system).

Saw your contribution on the transport infrastructure forum........seems that you're banned though which I can't understand.

You might be surprised to hear I'm very much in favour of crossrail. Infact not just that but crossrail 2 and 3 aswell. Got nothing against London, just desperatley wish the economic unbalance in the UK could be redressed. But not by supressing growth in London - that is never the way.

You're correct in what you say about needing denser populations in other UK cities. Looking at a map of Greater Manchester they could do with filling the whole geographic boundary with populace. My question is where do you get this extra populace from and how?
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  #48  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2006, 7:18 PM
Marre Marre is offline
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Originally Posted by Downtown Bolivar View Post
This is extremely entertaining reading--it reminds me the arguments we get into in New York State about Upstate versus NYC. The fact is that enormous cities like London, and their residents don't realize the enormous cost to other regions. Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham Vs. London--Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse Vs. NYC. You will hear the very same arguments from NYC that Nick Taylor uses for London. Usually it amounts to "quit crying because you are recieving a nice subsidy from us. The subsidy comes with a steep price--government corruption, absurd regulations that only hurt smaller cities, tax costs associated with those regulations, which all result in unattractive places to do business and economic doldrums. So thanks for nothing.
I beleive there is ignorance on both sides of the 'divide' when it comes to issues like this. The core of my argument is that powers should be spread to those who know what to do with it. Let each area have full control over it's own direction.
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  #49  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2006, 10:50 AM
nito nito is offline
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Originally Posted by Marre View Post
To be fair Birmingham and Manchester have used old heavy rail alignments for their tram networks. The Tyne & Wear metro system uses much of the old third rail suburban network with some new stretches. Quite unusual for such a project to take place in the UK I feel (a new underground system).

Saw your contribution on the transport infrastructure forum........seems that you're banned though which I can't understand.

You might be surprised to hear I'm very much in favour of crossrail. Infact not just that but crossrail 2 and 3 aswell. Got nothing against London, just desperatley wish the economic unbalance in the UK could be redressed. But not by supressing growth in London - that is never the way.

You're correct in what you say about needing denser populations in other UK cities. Looking at a map of Greater Manchester they could do with filling the whole geographic boundary with populace. My question is where do you get this extra populace from and how?
I got banned for having the unfortunate ability to set people right, especially mods who use their position as a springboard for their flawed views on the world (so many that it could be a book).

Yet, the forum has generally been on the downward slope for the last year and a half. Construction threads were and still are bogged down in wasteful posts; sometimes you'd waste your time sifting through pages of bile to find no new updates. Forumers who used to contribute real news have either left or contribute far less because their posts are unlikely to be seen amongst the hordes of five word sentences. I'd suspect that those in the construction sector who were rumoured to use the site have long since given up, which is rather ironic as I'm taking steps to starting my own property company!

The skybars tend to be nearly as big as the construction sub-forums and are updated more frequently than the actual construction threads of which the website was meant to be about. To top it off, while military sub-forums were created to massage the egos of some, construction threads were not backed up meaning the likes of the entire series of Swiss Re construction threads was lost when the site was hacked.

So why bother with a forum that is drowning in its own success of attracting morons who spam threads, spread racism, rampant inaccuracies. With people like Coth in charge, then you know you have a problem.


For a start, you need to get the northern cities to re-image themselves as nodes of London, much like Leeds has done. This will bring in investment, people and jobs, yet future construction projects have to aim at increasing density, not sprawl out. From then on it should be a cycle of success.
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  #50  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2006, 12:31 AM
Marre Marre is offline
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Originally Posted by nick_taylor View Post
For a start, you need to get the northern cities to re-image themselves as nodes of London, much like Leeds has done. This will bring in investment, people and jobs, yet future construction projects have to aim at increasing density, not sprawl out. From then on it should be a cycle of success.
Is that a diplomatic way of saying 'leech off London's growth but in a good way'?

Re population density: in cities such as Newcastle and Liverpool there are large areas in the metropolitan area that have terraced homes. I beleive both have displayed plans to bull doze many of them and replace them with multi-storey homes.

I'd quite like to see those big housing blocks I see so often in Germany.

Perhaps if they did that in Newcastle's West End the viability of extending the metro tunnel from St James Park to the west end would increase?
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  #51  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2006, 9:51 AM
nito nito is offline
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Originally Posted by Marre View Post
Is that a diplomatic way of saying 'leech off London's growth but in a good way'?

Re population density: in cities such as Newcastle and Liverpool there are large areas in the metropolitan area that have terraced homes. I beleive both have displayed plans to bull doze many of them and replace them with multi-storey homes.

I'd quite like to see those big housing blocks I see so often in Germany.

Perhaps if they did that in Newcastle's West End the viability of extending the metro tunnel from St James Park to the west end would increase?
Better to be a part of the solution, rather than feeding off its benefits. With Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham, etc...acting as nodes, London would have an immense catchment in regards to business and financial service connectivity that would be unrivalled by any other centre. This way, the northern cities would expand economically, while London would have to then subsidise the north less.

You mean the apartment blocks surrounding a courtyard - they would be a great way to maximise density, but not bring the claustrophobia of the 60's council estates. The fact is, these areas have to built to a high standard using good materials - the catchment would be more then enough for most cities to support high-frequency rail services.

The more people = the more likelihood that there would have to be extensions. What the local authorities would need to do is make it practical and as easy as possible to develop high-rises and high-density developments along that area.
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  #52  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2006, 10:30 PM
Marre Marre is offline
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Originally Posted by nick_taylor View Post
Better to be a part of the solution, rather than feeding off its benefits. With Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Birmingham, etc...acting as nodes, London would have an immense catchment in regards to business and financial service connectivity that would be unrivalled by any other centre. This way, the northern cities would expand economically, while London would have to then subsidise the north less.

You mean the apartment blocks surrounding a courtyard - they would be a great way to maximise density, but not bring the claustrophobia of the 60's council estates. The fact is, these areas have to built to a high standard using good materials - the catchment would be more then enough for most cities to support high-frequency rail services.

The more people = the more likelihood that there would have to be extensions. What the local authorities would need to do is make it practical and as easy as possible to develop high-rises and high-density developments along that area.
I see now, if this was done the rest of the UK could prosper aswell and there would be more money for both London and the rest of the country to invest in infrastructure. Looking at it this way if the regional cities were to grow aswell (enconomically and by populace) then eventually the transport links between these cities could then be upgraded also?

If it happened this way could the regional cities be the subject of a crossrail type service themselves (on a smaller scale of course)?

Yes the ones surrounding a court yard, they provide a very nice living environemnt I feel. And finally get rid of those horrible 60's designs once and for all.
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