Halifax Stadium Discussion

[PoscStudent]

Stephen Harper is obviously not going to offer any money for a stadium. He wouldn't for Quebec City when there was political gain in it for him so he obviously won't do it for Halifax when there is no gain.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

Based on the consultation I attended, there is no sign that the project will exceed the publicly announced price and scale. This project is not going to grow to $145 million. Beyond that, it is still very much up in the air.

Is that the $30 million dollar price tag or $60 million dollar price tag? Although this might cause some hostility, I would much rather see Halifax start with something practical that won't break the bank. It will be much easier to build a business case for a $30 million dollar - $60 million dollar stadium than a $145 million dollar stadium.

[wespidel]

I kind of get that same message as well that they are going to build a Nussli 60 million dollar stadium that Nussli calls a bowl modular type permanent stadium which will be probably be the first one Nussli has ever built who are mainly a temporary stadium company that specialize in temporary facilities like Empire`s BC lion temporary stadium. Nussli don`t have a two tier or multi tier permanently designed stadium model with open endzones to temporarily expand for larger events because they don`t really build permanent stadiums but I believe they have Mayor Kelly and the advisory committee convinced that they can sell Halifax their modular bowl type stadium they call permanent which they have a modular bowl fixed design for 60 million or Halifax will probably build a 30 million dollar Events NS 9,500 permanent seat stadium, basicly a Saint Mary`s/ Soccer NS special. I really get the impression the Mayor Kelly and the city and Dexter`s govt. don`t care what it is or what it looks like, as long as they can say they built a stadium while they are still in in power so they can get credit for their inadequate, unsuitable stadium so they can have a better chance to be elected again, because a 60 million dollar Nussli modular fixed bowl 25,000 seat stadium, that they call permanent will be low end and will not be able to be expanded or accommodate or attract a major professional sports franchise owner that would only be interested if the stadium had all the amenities and had the minimum permanent seat capacity and capability to stage a Grey Cup which all the CFL owners need, to be able to maintain their franchise and be viable from a business point of view.

These are the facts and what really upsets me as a tax payer is that all other projects were treated with the utmost respect and are all first class facilities and they had no problem spending 100 million on the 4-pad and Canada Games Centre and a 100 million on the new Convention Centre and now 60 million on a new library. But when it comes to a stadium they treat it second rate, when it should be treated with a greater degree of respect because it`s a bigger project than all the other projects. I`m and many other people in Halifax are not happy because Wayne Mason, I agreed and I have said before,this is the direction they are going which in my opinion is a waste of our money and time. Waye Mason you`re right because if Halifax and Dexter`s govt. was going to build at least a modestly priced 100 million dollar stadium they would be talking it up, instead they are indicating a 30 to 60 million dollar stadium, aren`t they! I hope Moncton expands their Stade stadium to a CFL model stadium and they spend another 75 million which they will have to, so they can embarrass Halifax because that`s is what the city of Halifax and the NS govt. is doing to us. I hope Moncton takes the market and guess what, Halifax will ever have a need to build a multi purpose major stadium in it`s existance because Moncton will own the market and will totally deserve to have it!

I have tried my best to convince the city and Dexter`s govt. to listen to the public and I have talked to a lot of people. I can guarantee that if Halifax and the NS govt. insult the people of Halifax and the region and don`t build at least a modestly priced multi purpose 100 million dollar stadium and they choose to snow the public and build a unsuitable 30 or 60 million dollar stadium in Halifax, Mayor Kelly and Dexter will be gone! The CommonWealth Games stadium lost was a disgraceful embarrassment and major lost to our city and region and if they do it to us again with an inadequate stadium, after their 450 million dollar plus gas grab at the pumps and counting in one year and yet refuse to give it back to the public, which is our money and don`t build a major stadium that the people of Halifax and the region can be proud of, then Mayor Kelly and Dexter will not get back in and they are currently very unpopular and need to gain a lot more support which they definitely will not get if they cheat the public a build a 30 or 60 million dollar stadium.


PS. I was planning on going to the stadium public meeting but I may not now because it`s pretty obvious what Waye Mason said in is post that they will not be building a modestly priced 100 million dollar major stadium which by the way is at the lower end of the spectrum when it comes to major stadiums in Canada, in other major cities. Halifax truely is a joke, wth the highest taxes in Canada, highest crime for the size of our city and an extremely unsafe city! All Halifax has currently is an insanely massive crime enviroment and criminal graffiti everywheres which both are increasing daily which the NS govt. and city does nothing to stop but yet allows it to continue and escalate. It`s seriously time to get out of this city! Even if they did use their intelligence and give some of our highest tax money back and build at least a modestly priced 100 dollar stadium, it probably would be too unsafe to attend an event or park a car near the facility. Wait and see what the criminals do to the new oval! They will attempt to destroy it with their criminal graffiti and their destructive criminal motives and the city of Halifax and our provinical govt. will allow them to do it! They must like crime because they are promoting crime by doing nothing to prevent it and by not enforcing rougher laws and serious time and punishment for the crimes. I`m sorry but many, many more people feel the same way and are leaving Halifax and the businesses are too! Halifax needs to clean up crime big time and now and the city and the Dexter`s govt. need to invest in crime and bring in rougher laws to deal with crime and put these criminals behind bars to give the people a safe city to live in and to do business in and they definitely have to reduce taxes. Yes Halifax needs a major stadium but they need a stadium that is safe to go to and enjoy and a city that`s safe to live in and affordable to live in, so people can afford to go to a major stadium. If it`s not a modestly priced, 25,000 minimum permanent seat 100 million dollar stadium, don`t bother and please don`t built it period because it will not be big enough or have the necessary features needed in a major stadium today and it will sit as an eyesore and not be used because it will not be suitable for a city the size of Halifax and the region!

I`m sure if the province and the city were building a new Metro Centre it wouldn`t be a bottom end facility, or a second rate 50 or 100 million dollar facility, it would be closer to 300 million! There is your answer which Mark Cohon outlined on 95.7 talk radio a few weeks ago and stated clearly that Moncton is a ok temporary stadium facility which can host one regular season game a year but he stated that Moncton needs to expand to a minimum of 25 thousand permanent seats with permanent washrooms and recession stands and luxury boxes, VIP lounges, club houses, restaurants etc. in order to attract a new CFL owner, so he can be viable and the franchise can exist. So Mayor Kelly, and the Premier Dexter listen to what he`s saying you may then realize that building an inadequate facility will not get you anywhere and will not attract a professional sports franchise owner which you will need as a major tenant nor a Grey Cup or other major events unless you have a major facility that will be able to accommodate and attract a professional sports franchsie and major events and at the same time finally put Halifax, the largest in Atlantic Canada on the map and on a National and Global level.

[Waye Mason]

Well, even the guy from Trade Centre Limited doesn't think we need a new Metro Centre yet, said a reno would keep the old one going for 10-15-20 years, and he didn't think we need an NHL size one even then.

No one who knows the sports and entertainment industry thinks we will need pro-bowl size facilities for at least a generation, or two, and maybe more.

Interesting though - learned after that meeting that a reason the Duke Street side expansion of the HMC is in doubt is because of - get ready for it - the protected view on Duke Street. Arg. The cheap plan to give HMC capacity is to throw a tier of seats out the north end of the bowl, but the view is the main issue. Thoughts?

[Waye Mason]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Is that the $30 million dollar price tag or $60 million dollar price tag? Although this might cause some hostility, I would much rather see Halifax start with something practical that won't break the bank. It will be much easier to build a business case for a $30 million dollar - $60 million dollar stadium than a $145 million dollar stadium.

This meeting was not that meeting.

I used the line I used here with you Fenwick, "Moncton on Steroids". I summed up at the end and got a good laugh when I said "sounds like we have loose consensus that we need a stadium, probably 12-15K seats so we can say it is bigger than Moncton, because size matters, but with concessions/power/bathrooms for 25K seats, so unlike Moncton when we put in temp seats we don't put customers in portapotties and 60 minutes line for beer". No one argued

But, remember, this was a meeting between the consultant, members of the committee and music/entertainment people. Who knows what the main other focus groups say. This was just one meeting.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by Waye Mason

This meeting was not that meeting.

I used the line I used here with you Fenwick, "Moncton on Steroids". I summed up at the end and got a good laugh when I said "sounds like we have loose consensus that we need a stadium, probably 12-15K seats so we can say it is bigger than Moncton, because size matters, but with concessions/power/bathrooms for 25K seats, so unlike Moncton when we put in temp seats we don't put customers in portapotties and 60 minutes line for beer". No one argued

But, remember, this was a meeting between the consultant, members of the committee and music/entertainment people. Who knows what the main other focus groups say. This was just one meeting.

I am glad to hear that there will be other meetings. At the May 31st meeting did they have members of the sports-entertainment industry? I am thinking of people such as Bobby Smith (owner of the Halifax Mooseheads) and Andre Livingston (owner of the Halifax Rainmen).

But I have to disagree with you regarding the Moncton comment ("probably 12-15K seats so we can say it is bigger than Moncton") - this isn't a muscle flexing contest with Moncton. Moncton has been mentioned many times because it is a much smaller municipality with big dreams (to have a CFL team).

I seem to be in closer agreement with wespidel - he has a passion for the municipality and province and that is why he gets so frustrated (as do I) - i.e. in not understanding why more isn't being done to get a CFL franchise in the city. The only difference I have with wespidel is that I know that the city won't spend $100 - $145 million for a stadium. So if the municipality plans to spend $60 million then get construction experts to meet with the committee and start asking them questions about how they can build a suitable stadium for $60 million (25,000 permanent seats, expandable to over 40,000). Although I am not directly in the construction industry, I have had many years experience in the manufacturing industry - when you have a limited budget for equipment then you start calling various people to find one that can provide you with what you need. Likewise with a stadium - have a meeting involving construction people (engineers, general contractors, tradesmen ...) and start picking their brains to come up with an economical stadium design.

I have mentioned Calgary's McMahon Stadium before - they built a solid 22,000 seats stadium in 1960 for $1 million dollars (which has since been expanded). I think that the people in Calgary just decided to build a stadium for a limited amount of money, and they just went out and did it.

If I had another 10 - 20 years to learn more about the construction industry then I would, and then I would go down to Halifax and tell them how to do it. But the HRM doesn't need to wait 10 - 20 years; I went to Dalhousie University with many engineers who went into the construction field (I went into Chemical Engineering instead). There are civil (structural) engineers/construction tradesmen in Canada who have the construction experience necessary and a passion for the province and municipality who can design a suitable stadium in the Halifax area for $60 million dollars. I hope that the stadium committee will find these people and take their advice. I hope that the committee hasn't already decided to go with a Nussli design (although I wouldn't rule it out, I would prefer a stadium be designed by Nova Scotians with a passion for the province). The stadium committee should find a way to give the residents a gift - an economical stadium that can bring a lot of enjoyment to its residents.

PS: Maybe the stadium committee is already doing what I have stated - looking for construction experts that can build a stadium at a reasonable cost. No disrespect is intended - just the hope that the stadium design will be given thorough consideration in order to come up with the best design at the budget determined through the business plan study.

[wespidel]

Waye Mason, you indicated that there was part of the advisory stadium committee at your meeting that stated that Halifax does not need presently a modestly priced 100 million 25,000 permanent seat plus multi purpose stadium but maybe in generations to come. Well if this is the case and it obvious it is, Halifax will be the laughing stock of Canada when they build there mickey mouse 30 million 9,500 permanent seat eyesore of a so called stadium which will suit Saint Mary`s and Soccer NS fine. They will really have achieved nothing but a Sue Uteck special!. Why don`t HRM and Dexter`s govt. come out a say they are going to build a mickey mouse tiny little stadium, rather then misleading and snowing the public. Halifax is a minor league city and will remain that and deserved to be what it is, a disgrace!

Go Moncton go!

[wespidel]

going to build.

[beyeas]

The thing that is largely missing from the overall public discussion so far is the role of the private sector. All the discussion in the press etc seems to be on how much money and how big a stadium the public sector should put in.

I have no problem at all with the taxpayer only putting forward the funds to pay for a "stadium-lite", as long as the design allows for relatively easy expansion to something in the 25k seat range at least, luxury boxes etc.

We clearly can't expect the private sector in NS to decide to build a stadium for a potential CFL team (the local business climate is just too tentative and risk-averse). But equally, we can't expect public funds to pay for a stadium that is going to in the future be used on a for-profit basis by a CFL team etc etc.

Ideally, these two things would be going on hand-in-hand (and maybe they are in the background for all I know), with the stadium going forward as a public-private-partnership in which each side puts money forward for a full-scale 25k seat stadium right off the bat. However in this specific case I don't see that being feasible, given that governments these days are reticent to be seen to fund stadia for private use. The "out" here is that they will only be seen to put in funds for a stadium capable of meeting the requirements for FIFA and for university usage (e.g. Uteck or even Vanier).

The only way I see us getting a stadium with sufficient seats and amenities for a CFL team is if the private sector steps forward with money, because public money realistically is only going to fund the bare minimum shell. I actually don't see that as a bad thing, and it is entirely possible that the private side is just waiting to see if the public will fund the basic structure, and then a private/corporate will step forward and take it further (likely through future expansion as part of a bid for a CFL). I really wish we were hearing more from the private sector during this though, as I would like to know if there is the will in the private sector to put in the money needed for a CFL quality stadium.

Just my 2 cents.

[fenwick16]

Just a quick reply to beyeas. It is not unusual for governments to build such facilities with the plan to lease them out to private business and also use such facilities for public functions- this is the argument for building the convention centre, and it was how the Metro Centre was built (not with a infusion of private money but with the hope that it could generate income). There does seem to be a double standard with the stadium that doesn't exist for arenas, libraries, convention centres, etc.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Just a quick reply to beyeas. It is not unusual for governments to build such facilities with the plan to lease them out to private business and also use such facilities for public functions- this is the argument for building the convention centre, and it was how the Metro Centre was built (not with a infusion of private money but with the hope that it could generate income). There does seem to be a double standard with the stadium that doesn't exist for arenas, libraries, convention centres, etc.

Oh I don't disagree... like I said, in an ideal world the public and private should really be moving forward together and there shouldn't be the worry of taxpayer money funding something that will be used by a pro sports team.
I do however think that the private sector should step forward and be part of this, as they are with many stadia/rinks these days (like the proposed new rink in Edmonton which will be jointly funded by municipal and private funds, although it remains to be seen if the province puts in funds!). The only way we get the full scale stadium is if this is a partnership, either immediately or in a future expansion. I'm just being realistic, given what seems to be going on in the initial committees etc.

[worldlyhaligonian]

After this library gets built, I say they just tender a stadium in the same way... get a local construction partner and have a design competition.

The library will not generate significant revenues and comes out of the public purse, so what's the difference with a stadium for public use and sporting events. It actually makes more sense.

[wespidel]

Fenwick thanks for understanding my frustration and yes if that`s all they are determined to build, is a 60 million dollar stadium then you are right Fenwick, but build it smart so it can be permanently expanded, but the problem I have with that Fenwick is that this type of stadium in a city the size of Halifax, that will be built not only for Halifax but for the entire region will not be stadium ready or suitable or sizeable for what they need now and in the future. Why spend 60 million and get a 20,000 or 15,000 permanent seat stadium which apparently they are now focused on; when they know they will not have the facility they need and I know you will say it`s money! Well the city and province seem to have no problem spending 130 million dollars on LED lights or hundreds of millions on other major projects do they! So it`s not money! It`s a total lack of respect for the people of Halifax and the region and the importance of a real major stadium which is so overdue and needed for the city of Halifax to showcase themselfs as a player and to respect the Atlantic region`s need for a major multi purpose facility. Halifax naturally being it`s largest city, would surely put us on the map to compete Nationally to stage large events and yes to attract the 10th CFL team coast to coast and to stage the first Grey Cup game ever in Atlantic Canada. If Halifax and the province don`t want this, their behind the times and have no vision and really don`t care! This stadium advisory committee becomes a joke, if all they are going to do, is build a replacement stadium for Saint Mary`s. Seriously, they will have wasted the tax payers money and time. Halifax council and Dexter`s govt., if you can`t get your act together and build a decent 90 to 100 million dollar stadium after the CommonWealth Game stadium disaster, get out of town, just like everyone else is doing and a lot more to follow because people in this city are fed up with the crime and the high taxes, the overwhelming criminal graffiti spread like cancer all over our city and lack of commerical development downtown and lack of direction by this city and province. We are going nowhere fast!


PS. Fenwick if you have that Nussli photo still I emailed you because at this stage I don`t care anymore because I`m so upset with this city and their narrow minded direction that I giving you permission to post it on this site. It`s Nussli`s only so called permanent fixed bowl modular 27,500 seat stadium, they call permanent that cannot be expanded which they may be able to build for 60 million. Fenwick if you don`t have it anymore email me at my regular email address and I will sent it to you again so you can post it.

Take care, Spyder*

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by worldlyhaligonian

After this library gets built, I say they just tender a stadium in the same way... get a local construction partner and have a design competition.

The library will not generate significant revenues and comes out of the public purse, so what's the difference with a stadium for public use and sporting events. It actually makes more sense.

Like I said, I completely support public money going into this, and as you say many tens of millions will go to the library project so why not the stadium.

It is not apples to apples comparison though, which is why I think private money needs to go into this if it is going to be expanded to the point of being a CFL sized stadium. The difference is that the library will not have a private for profit company as a primary tenant making money off of the public investment. That is why it is quite often the norm these days in arena/stadium building to have a mix of corporate and public money since both the business and the public will also benefit. It shouldn't fall 100% to either side to have to pay the whole bill.

Tax money money going to a project that will clearly have major public impact on quality of life etc is a good thing, and if we plan to have a corporate run CFL team that hopefully makes a profit, then they also need to step in with their share of the money.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by beyeas

Like I said, I completely support public money going into this, and as you say many tens of millions will go to the library project so why not the stadium.

It is not apples to apples comparison though, which is why I think private money needs to go into this if it is going to be expanded to the point of being a CFL sized stadium. The difference is that the library will not have a private for profit company as a primary tenant making money off of the public investment. That is why it is quite often the norm these days in arena/stadium building to have a mix of corporate and public money since both the business and the public will also benefit. It shouldn't fall 100% to either side to have to pay the whole bill.

Tax money money going to a project that will clearly have major public impact on quality of life etc is a good thing, and if we plan to have a corporate run CFL team that hopefully makes a profit, then they also need to step in with their share of the money.

I don't see the difference between leasing/renting a stadium to private interests (not just a CFL team, hopefully also a soccer team sometime in the future, and concert promoters ...). How is that different from renting the convention centre space to private interests?

Part of the business case for a stadium is to consider the income from the stadium (including potential rent income from a CFL team). The truth is that the extravagant stadiums tend to run at a big loss. So I think the best chance of making money (or breaking even) will be an economical stadium which can be easily upgraded with club seats/luxury suites and easily expanded when necessary. Such a stadium will also have the least risk for taxpayers.

[TedWilliamsHead]

wespidle why cant you just post the picture?

[fenwick16]

Sorry Wespidel, since I don't know where the stadium images came from originally, I have concerns about posting them. Maybe someone else would be willing to post them? In my opinion, they look quite good for $60 million dollars (if that is the cost?).

I tried to find similar images on the internet so that I would not be breaking any possible confidentiality agreements. The closest that I could find is this one below: (I am not sure if it is designed by Nussli)

(source: http://sportbusinessmanagement.blogs...vo-stadio.html)

[c-way-dude]

Should Halifax build a permanent version of Vancouver's Empire Field, it still should be enough to attract a CFL franchise. I read on the CFL site that B.C. Lions owner David Braley basically broke even at Empire Field last season playing in front of average crowds in the 23000 range. The previous Toronto Argonaut owners had a plan to build a similar stadium at York University a few years ago. If it could have sufficed for them, it could in Halifax.
I have long been an advocate of building a modest stadium in Halifax. It would be cheaper to build and maintain. Whether or not it would be successful depends on the public. A stadium similar to many historic stadiums like Ivor Wynne, or even Fenway Park decades ago, that is small with great sightlines could provide an environment that would attract fans. A basic facility could have the feel of an older stadium. The downside, of course, would be an inability to host a Grey Cup.
Does anyone know if a modular stadium could be partially sunken with the potential to add an upper deck if required?

[wespidel]

No the Nussli bowl modular bowl type permanent stadium, which they call permanent because they are basicly a specialized temporary stadium company, does have a partial roof all around the modular bowl stadium which is fixed and you cannot expand in the endzones or add a second upper deck goal line to goal line.The structure is better made than their temporary Empire BC stadium. Better cosmetics and an overall better looking facility and somewhat better constructed, not made like their temporary metal tubing type make shift temporary Empire BC Lion stadium. Although stadium quality wise and construction wise it`s of the low end of the scale and that is why Scott Mitchell the CEO of the Hamilton Tigercats wouldn`t touch it and spoke firmly on that decision on Hamilton`s local talk radio station. Hamilton and Ottawa and Winnipeg are building a much better made stadium and that`s why their costing 145 million and 200 million respectfully and not 60 to 65 million which the 27,500 permanent seat Nussli modular bowl type fixed stadium would cost. Ottawa, Hamilton and Winnipeg`s stadiums are not fixed bowl type modular stadiums. If you want to compare go the CFL site and go to the Bomber site and click on their stadium web cam and check out the way their stadium is being constructed, you will be impressed. Ottawa and Hamilton will also be constructed simplier. Built to last and to stand up and built with all the latest features. Halifax would be taking the cheapest route if they built a Nussli modular bowl type fixed stadium and it would be totally the wrong design to build and definitely not the quality you need to have in a stadium today.

Sorry, no Nussli`s modular bowl fixed stadium is not a sunken in bowl, but Winnipeg`s new stadium`s first lower level is! Hamilton`s, Ottawa`s and Winnipeg`s new stadiums will be state of the art and top quality and apparently in the 200 million dollar price it includes a recreation centre and training facility.

The Nussli modular type bowl fixed stadium is a toy in comparsion!

[wespidel]

You will be not breaking any confidentiality agreements, I promise and either will I, you are clear to make the image posts and I have given you the permission to because I supplied you the images which were freely and willingly supplied to me without a signed confidentiality agreement document stating not to display or show any third party the images which makes it totally legal to share and show openly which was provided to me as well. These have been made available and have been all ready shown to the public and displayed on local TV and there was no copyright restrictions on these images. I worked in this field and I know what I`m talking about so Fenwick it`s totally ok to post the images which I believe with the stadium meeting coming up next week will provide some interesting debate.


Looking forward to your feedback, take care!

SPYDER*