Colorado Politics

[Brainpathology]

Do fat unhealthy people have more clout and influence than thin healthy people?

[Eeyore]

Originally Posted by Brainpathology

Do fat unhealthy people have more clout and influence than thin healthy people?

So are you implying that the Denver MSA is fat and un healthy? If so then I would have to say yes as it obviously has more influence then the Pueblo MSA.

[DenFatBoy]

Can you move this BS to the Pueblo discussion board? Once again you hijack every thread possible with your rainbow and lollypop world of how great that outpost of a town is.
BTW, it’s CSU-P because it’s not the main campus (second fiddle). There is no CSU FC it’s just CSU.

Front Rage guy- Glad to hear about the initiatives that passed in the Springs. It’s a few big steps in the right direction.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Eeyore

Now if anyone can provide one example of a U.S. city that proves my theory wrong tell me and I will study it but I can't think of one U.S. city that has grown in the past 100 years with none or very little sprawl.

You just don't get it. Does CSU-P have anything even remotely resembling a planning history course? If so, go take it.

If you want to look back 100 years, then it's not even difficult to find examples of high quality sustainable development, before "sprawl" came to dominate the U.S. landscape. The most important thing you need to understand is this: suburbanization is not the same as sprawl. Outward growth of a city is inevitable. But what you are advocating (and what it appears Pueblo is choosing) is the absolutely worst possible model for that growth.

Suffice it to say - THIS is not going to turn Pueblo around, politically or otherwise. We call this a flagpole annexation. Is there a particular reason the city isn't annexing everything in between? I mean, I am not necessarily advocating a pure contiguity requirement. But this...this is an embarrassment. Even Banning Lewis at least connects. Highlands Ranch ties into the Denver/Englewood/Littleton street grid. But this...how will this possibly integrate? This is not meant to generate new growth; this will suck it right out of Pueblo's existing core. How do you not see that? We are not all downtown-only urbanists here. We just see what you do not.



We should move this to the Pueblo forum (although it started with a discussion of Pueblo's political relevance, so it initially fit). But I'll stop now. That picture speaks for itself.

[bunt_q]

Okay, one more...

Obvious things. For example, look at the Pueblo Springs Development Standards. They have absurd TOD (transit oriented development) districts in there. TOD planning, without the T. They pay lip service to the things you'd expect in a modern, well thought out, master planned project. But it doesn't make SENSE. (http://www.pueblo.us/documents/Plann...ndards8508.pdf)

Go to the PACOG 2035 Transportation Plan, and there's nothing. A few vague arterials ("proposed expressways") connecting into your supposed 200,000-person project. But no transit. Hardly the roads to accommodate it. Obviously not integrated with what the planners have put together. That part of the city/county barely registers in the long range plan, let alone playing any sort of prominent feature. http://www.pacog.net/long_term_plan.htm

Contrast that with the copious planning that has gone into road planning on the east side of Colorado Springs (we have been discussing whether Powers or Marksheffel should be the freeway since before I think either of those was paved!).

That is not to say that Pueblo Springs won't pan out - I am confident the developers have a 110% grasp on things. But if your MPO isn't in the lead. If the city is being pulled rather than is doing the pushing. That's all a recipe for disaster for the City of Pueblo. We're not knocking you here - quit being so defensive. We are critical of that project because it has the potential to be really bad, and is without a doubt not as good as you think it is.

[DenverInfill]

How soon we forget.

Let's revisit, shall we, the source of Eeyore's claim of Pueblo being the hub of a 20-county region. He first introduced it here:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...&postcount=754

The source was the US Census Bureau, but not from some new official Census designation of a Pueblo metropolitan statistical area that covers 20 counties, or perhaps from some other official federal or state delineation of regional spheres of influence.

No, instead, this came from the division of the state's 64 counties into "regions" for the purpose of establishing temporary Census field offices from which the Census Bureau hired workers to conduct the 2010 Census survey. The Census Bureau isn't going to physically establish an office in every berg and shire across the land, so they set up field offices in enough cities to cover all far-flung areas within a reasonable distance, while obviously limiting the number of offices to as few as necessary for fiscal reasons. In Colorado, they divided up our 64 counties into 8 "regions":

Denver
Aurora
Lakewood
Westminster
Greeley
Colorado Springs
Grand Junction
Pueblo

http://2010.census.gov/2010censusjob...zoom_level=150

All counties outside of metro Denver were basically assigned to either the Greeley, Colorado Springs, Grand Junction, or Pueblo office. It's that simple, and it's that irrelevant to anything other than the short-term management of census takers.

Eeyore knows the deceit of this "20-county region" claim, but he is either so blinded by his need to support his self esteem through Pueblo-boosting that he "forgot" or he is so obsessed with Pueblo-boosting that he knowingly manipulated the facts to suit his agenda.

A few posts later, Eeyore tallies up the population of those 20 counties:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...&postcount=769

They total 335,000.

A few posts above in this thread, Eeyore posted some "Third District Facts" that he copied from Congressman Salazar's website:

http://www.house.gov/salazar/district.shtml

You'll notice that he parenthetically added to the population line that the Pueblo region is 400,000. Conveniently, 335,000 becomes 400,000 in Eeyore's mind. And since the 400,000 comes right after the 614,467 figure for the 3rd District population, one may be led to believe that the Pueblo region constitutes four-sixths of the congressional district's population. However, if you compare the 20-county Census Field Office map with the 3rd District Congressional Map, you'll see that there are only 15 counties in the Pueblo Census Field Office region that are also in the 3rd Congressional District.

So basically it's all a bunch of bull crap.

[bunt_q]

Here's an excerpt from the PACOG 2035 Transportation Plan (Appendix 8, preferred plan). I apologize for the resolution.

If it's readable... Gives an idea of the scale of the project. Shows the distance from the city (not just downtown, but any contiguous developed area that matters). And also shows how not integrated it will be. Looks like one fully developed I-25 interchange (and another connection to Powers South discussed in the document - score one for Colorado Springs). Some arterial connections. Funding-permitting I am sure, possibly even a good connection to Highway 50. No doubt, a great development for the developer. Maybe I'll track them down - could make a ton of money on this project (some consultants will). But for the CITY, not so good.

[enjo13]

I like to stay out of these pueblo fights cause... wtf do I know?

But when Ken shows up to deliver some smack down.. it's thing a beauty really

[DenverInfill]

I'm sure Eeyore's heart is in the right place and I appreciate his enthusiasm for Pueblo, but his mind works in mysterious ways. Here's how Eeyore's brain works:

Exhibit A: Eeyore reads a quote from a local chamber of commerce official who says, "We hear a European widget manufacturer is looking to open a U.S. plant. Gee, it sure would be great if they came to Pueblo."

Exhibit B: Eeyore reads on Wikipedia: "The largest widget production facility in Europe is located in Shpluckensdorf, Germany and employs 3,900 people."

Exhibit C: Eeyore reads in a developer's brochure: "Our proposed 200-acre industrial park in north Pueblo could accommodate multiple small users or a single large manufacturing facility."

Exhibit D: Eeyore reads in the newspaper: "Attendance was up at this year's Oktoberfest in Downtown Pueblo, where even a few visitors from Germany took part in the celebration."

Inside Eeyore's head: A + B + C + D

Eeyore on SSP: "OMG!!! A German widget company is going to open a massive 200-acre plant in Pueblo that will employ almost 5,000 people!!! Company officials were in town just the other day to check out the site. Now I'm going to have to change my estimate of Pueblo's 2020 population from 300,000 to 400,000!!"

[wong21fr]

Bunt_q and Ken are my heroes in this case. Two professionals with years of experience laying the proverbial smack down.

Eeyore, I'd listen to Bunt on Pueblo Springs Ranch, this is what the guy did for a living before becoming some form of dirty lawyer who tried to build a city in a godforsaken land.

[Eeyore]

I am not ignoring these posts but I want to spend a few hours reading them to make sure I fully understand what was said by evereyone before I make my comment.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Eeyore

I am not ignoring these posts but I want to spend a few hours reading them to make sure I fully understand what was said by evereyone before I make my comment.

I already can predict what you are going to say:

-These are some very good points and I agree with them.
-I don't want Pueblo Springs to end up like Highlands Ranch that's why I want it to be annexed by Pueblo (nevermind it has to be annexed to work because Pueblo has the water the developer need)
-Monorail
-Blah, blah, blah, developers will give free buildings to companies to move there.
-Pueblo needs to grow
-CEP will change everything
-Yacht club
-Blah, blah, blah

You've got a guy who has worked for years in the development sector, both of the urban and suburban kind, telling you this is a land grab that is going to f**k Pueblo up the ass if it happens. But you don't/can't listen because it doesn't fit into your world-view.

[BroncoCSU05]

way to feed the trolls, guys

[Strange Meat]

Originally Posted by Eeyore

Ski Areas:

Steamboat Ski Resort, Aspen Mountain, Buttermilk, Aspen Highlands, Snowmass, Sunlight Ski Area, Telluride Ski Resort, Durango Ski Mountain, Monarch, Wolf Creek, Hesperus Ski Area, Howelson Hill Ski Area, Silverton Mountain, Crested Butte

I don't know if this has been addressed already, but who the hell associates ANY ski areas with Pueblo? I sure don't.

And why the hell is Steamboat on that list? It's like you listed all the southern places, then Aspen and Snowmass, skipping fully over Summit County, to Steamboat? Uhhhh?

Originally Posted by Eeyore

just a stones throw from Fort Carson

Yeah you know the Ft. Carson story, right? And you want to attract them to your city?

Originally Posted by wong21fr

Bunt_q and Ken are my heroes in this case. Two professionals with years of experience laying the proverbial smack down.

I admit, I got choked up a little bit.

*sniff*

Now, can anyone explain to me just why in the hell Orlando was being discussed?

Originally Posted by BroncoCSU05

way to feed the trolls, guys

It's kinda fun. Between this and catching up on Kissing Suzy Kolber I've really got a few laughs in in the past half hour.







Anyway, some serious Colorado political discussion... I'm pretty unfamiliar with a lot of the Denver mayoral candidates (or at least the potential names that I've seen thrown about). Does anyone have any insight on any of them?

[Eeyore]

I am more then willing to take a class in planning as I would like to know more.

As far as the proposed Pueblo Springs Ranch Development. We have talked about it in every possible angle so I find myself not wanting to comment on it until it gets annexed and actually starts. Then in the Pueblo thread we can continue the discussion if the development is good or bad for Pueblo. So at this point I think I will just leave it at that.

I do want to explain where I got my facts from for the "Pueblo Region". It comes from the Pueblo Urban Renewal Authority web page on the proposed expansion of the convention center. It has the region at 20 counties with a population of 400,000 people and they included this map:



I included the other map from the Pueblo web page because it includes the upper Arkansas river valley that is obviously part of the region.

My take is we all agree that Pueblo needs to grow to remain politically important in Colorado we just disagree on how Pueblo should grow. I am not sure how it will happen but I think this decade is the defining decade that will determine how Pueblo grows this century. Time will tell.

[Eeyore]

Originally Posted by Strange Meat

I don't know if this has been addressed already, but who the hell associates ANY ski areas with Pueblo? I sure don't.

And why the hell is Steamboat on that list? It's like you listed all the southern places, then Aspen and Snowmass, skipping fully over Summit County, to Steamboat? Uhhhh?

They are in district 3.

Yeah you know the Ft. Carson story, right? And you want to attract them to your city?

I do but the fact is Fort Carson is between Pueblo and Colorado Springs in both counties so many do live in Pueblo.

I admit, I got choked up a little bit.

*sniff*

Now, can anyone explain to me just why in the hell Orlando was being discussed?

Orlando happens to be my second favorite city in the country after Pueblo. So it gets brought up at times.

It's kinda fun. Between this and catching up on Kissing Suzy Kolber I've really got a few laughs in in the past half hour.







Anyway, some serious Colorado political discussion... I'm pretty unfamiliar with a lot of the Denver mayoral candidates (or at least the potential names that I've seen thrown about). Does anyone have any insight on any of them?

My responces are in bold.

[bunt_q]

Good stuff all around. But I just can't top the Shpluckensdorf delegation! If they're willing to invest in Pueblo, who am I to argue?

Also, I think I am concluding it is impossible to have a rational discussion against the "Inshallah" approach to land development.

[Brainpathology]

Originally Posted by Eeyore

So are you implying that the Denver MSA is fat and un healthy? If so then I would have to say yes as it obviously has more influence then the Pueblo MSA.

No I'm saying cities like Orlando and COS are. Denver has been working to fix it's problems for the last 20 years, and compared to most American cities of it's size it is extremely healthy downtown and near downtown.

If you want a couple examples of small influential or relevant cities how about starting up the road in Boulder. That city will always be less in population than Pueblo and a real live space craft built in Boulder which actually got launched and is taking pictures of comets right this second. Not much more relevance than that really. And it's just the latest, not the only, spaceship built there which actually left orbit to complete a real mission. You'll never see Boulder saying "hey lets be Denver so we can save ourselves"

How about Rochester MN? WAY smaller than Pueblo but the Mayo Clinic is THE place to advance health care models and treatments. You'll never see Rochester saying "hey lets be Minneapolis so we can save ourselves".

How about Los Alamos NM? Sandia national labs are right next door. You'll never see Los Alamos saying "hey lets be Albuquerque so we can save ourselves".

That's three off the top of my head smaller than than Pueblo in population but several orders of magnitude larger than Pueblo in relevance, desirability, health, influence, etc. These cities have small populations but EXTREMELY important contributions to their respective states and even go way further than that and contribute to national and world knowledge and progress.

Pueblo is irrelevant because it has nothing to offer anyone outside of Pueblo except groceries and movies to a few surrounding counties.

If you want it to be relevant don't make it fat, slow, ugly AND irrelevant. (don't say "hey lets be COS or Orlando) Try getting people around you or the city who are truly truly creative and original (trust me you are absolutely not the person for this - you can definitely sell an idea if one ever appears though) and find something that Pueblo CAN do with nothing more than it has now that isn't something done elsewhere (like a riverwalk, convention center, minor university, etc) and then try changing Pueblo from a 100k city which means nothing at all to anyone other than those 100k people and into something like Rochester, Boulder, or Los Alamos where every advance they make actually DOES make people stand up and take notice.

Maybe your jobs tax would be better spent funding the transportation research center for instance, which is little more than a novelty now. (just an example... not really necessary for your 1000 word essay on how its already the best facility since Henry Ford's first auto factory)

[Front_Range_Guy]

This report by KOAA-TV details John Hickenloopers ties to Colorado Springs, and how he saved a downtown landmark from the wrecking ball. It also has video of Hickenlooper from 20 years ago.

LINK

[Front_Range_Guy]

Colorado Springs' budget proposal for next year includes funding for street lights, parks, rec centers, homeless advocacy, and FREX.