Winnipeg Valour - CanPL

[Goldie]

Well the Bombers, at -$200 million in debt, are currently the most in-debt sports team in North America so I guess they have to do things like this to at least appear they're trying to pay it off. (Even though we all know they never, ever will)

I'm not too excited about this new team for a few reasons...

1) They'll be owned by the Bombers. Lets face it- the Blue haven't done much in the last 30 years on or OFF the field to make us proud here in Manitoba.
2) The games will be at IGF. Which means if you're not a season ticket holder you'll have to park 2 miles away from the stadium (if I'm mistaken on this point, please let me know... last I heard the campus parking is off-limits to non-season ticket holders for Bomber games)
3) Beers will likely be $8.00 - $10.00 apiece. For minor league soccer. And the other concessions will be equally ridiculously priced.
4) An empty upper bowl will give games a somewhat depressing atmosphere.

I may see a game to give it a shot but I don't see it working long-term. If the team was owned by True North & played in a more central location, I think they'd have a chance.

[Biff]

Originally Posted by Goldie

The games will be at IGF. Which means if you're not a season ticket holder you'll have to park 2 miles away from the stadium (if I'm mistaken on this point, please let me know... last I heard the campus parking is off-limits to non-season ticket holders for Bomber games)

Every Bomber game I have gone to I have parked on campus, most times I park in Q lot which is about as close to parking in the stadium as it gets....i'm not a season ticket holder.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Goldie

Well the Bombers, at -$200 million in debt, are currently the most in-debt sports team in North America so I guess they have to do things like this to at least appear they're trying to pay it off. (Even though we all know they never, ever will)

I'm not too excited about this new team for a few reasons...

1) They'll be owned by the Bombers. Lets face it- the Blue haven't done much in the last 30 years on or OFF the field to make us proud here in Manitoba.
2) The games will be at IGF. Which means if you're not a season ticket holder you'll have to park 2 miles away from the stadium (if I'm mistaken on this point, please let me know... last I heard the campus parking is off-limits to non-season ticket holders for Bomber games)
3) Beers will likely be $8.00 - $10.00 apiece. For minor league soccer. And the other concessions will be equally ridiculously priced.
4) An empty upper bowl will give games a somewhat depressing atmosphere.

I may see a game to give it a shot but I don't see it working long-term. If the team was owned by True North & played in a more central location, I think they'd have a chance.

You have really bent over backwards for the most pessimistic take possible. I suppose that Manitoba could have taken the same approach that many other jurisdictions in North America have with new pro sports facilities and simply gifted IGF to the Bombers, and then the team wouldn't have had to deal with the apparent dishonour of carrying debt.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ For what it's worth, Canadian university football teams draw crowds comparable to a lot of NCAA D-II schools. People see the Ohio States and Michigans and think it's all like that, but there are plenty of NCAA teams playing in front of small crowds like the 2,000 or so the Bisons usually get... schools drawing 50,000+ a game are still an exception down there.

2,000 is generally more a D-3 range, but this is true – however there's also high schools that get 10,000-20,000 all over the US.

Originally Posted by esquire

You have really bent over backwards for the most pessimistic take possible. I suppose that Manitoba could have taken the same approach that many other jurisdictions in North America have with new pro sports facilities and simply gifted IGF to the Bombers, and then the team wouldn't have had to deal with the apparent dishonour of carrying debt.

Yup – you imagine the residents of Winnipeg's furor if we paid for the stadium – people here are up in arms that we gave TNSE a sliver of money for the arena (all 3 gov's split less than 1/3) & TNS plaza.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by buzzg

2,000 is generally more a D-3 range, but this is true – however there's also high schools that get 10,000-20,000 all over the US.

I don't mean to get off on a tangent with you here but high schools routinely drawing in that range are exceptionally rare. Probably no more than a few in a nation of 300 million+.

For whatever reason in Canada the popular myth is that every other American high school plays in something like this:



When in reality the average experience is more along the lines of this:

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ For what it's worth, Canadian university football teams draw crowds comparable to a lot of NCAA D-II schools. People see the Ohio States and Michigans and think it's all like that, but there are plenty of NCAA teams playing in front of small crowds like the 2,000 or so the Bisons usually get... schools drawing 50,000+ a game are still an exception down there.

Well... there are about 125 colleges in the top level of U.S. college football. These are the schools that compete for bowl invitations.

They're listed under "FBS" here. Almost all of them draw CFL-style crowds, and often significantly more. And if you look at the start of the document the top 30 programs in the U.S. all draw at least in the 60,000 range, and often way more.

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/footba...dance/2017.pdf

[esquire]

^ Well yes, I don't deny the numbers you posted. But the point is that if the U of M was located 150 km south and playing D-II NCAA football, they might be drawing 4 thousand fans a game instead of the 2 thousand they currently get.

It's not enough just to put on a college team on the field, throw the stadium doors open and expect you're going to get 60,000 people a game.

[HomeInMyShoes]

The US is also a country with a popluation ten times that of Canada. Winnipeg is the 8th largest metro in Canada. They would be the 74th largest in the US. You know what the 74th largest in Canada is? Brockville at 38,000. Why do we continual try to rationalize Canadian attendance to US attendance? We are just slightly more than a rounding error really.

[cutchemist42]

Originally Posted by esquire

You have really bent over backwards for the most pessimistic take possible. I suppose that Manitoba could have taken the same approach that many other jurisdictions in North America have with new pro sports facilities and simply gifted IGF to the Bombers, and then the team wouldn't have had to deal with the apparent dishonour of carrying debt.

Eh I think some fair points are brought up. Like I said before, I was ripped years ago for doubting this team as everyone said everything TNSE touches is gold and they will be the owners and not the Bombers. Flash forward to now and the mental gymanstics of flipping that take and explaining why the Bombers are the better choice is a bit rich.

I trust the connected posters at reddit, and agree with the guys who said picking Bombers/IGF over TNSE/Goldeyes stadium might not have been the best choice.

[esquire]

^ Was there actually a TNSE/Goldeyes stadium proposal for the local CPL team? I don't remember hearing about it. I wouldn't necessarily expect Katz to play that nicely with Chipman either, although I suppose money talks.

Soccer and baseball players are so finicky about their fields that it's hard to imagine them ever sharing a stadium. Although in some respects, the Goldeyes/AA folding could be the best thing to happen to soccer in Winnipeg as with a bit of renovation/expansion you'd basically have a top notch soccer stadium downtown ready to go.

As I understand it the CPL idea was originally hatched with the involvement of the CFL, so there was a natural connection between the new soccer team and the Bombers. Although I guess having the only pro-calibre soccer stadium in town probably helped in that regard too.

[Ando]

I've never heard of it, but apparently cutchemist will fill us in about it.

[DowntownBooster]

Originally Posted by esquire

Soccer and baseball players are so finicky about their fields that it's hard to imagine them ever sharing a stadium. Although in some respects, the Goldeyes/AA folding could be the best thing to happen to soccer in Winnipeg as with a bit of renovation/expansion you'd basically have a top notch soccer stadium downtown ready to go.

There are many Goldeyes fans that would be disappointed to see the team and/or league fold. The team provides 50 home games of entertainment each year for those fans. The Goldeyes are a well run organization and have been good corporate citizens for this city. As much as I am glad we will now have a soccer team in Winnipeg with the Valour FC, it would be a shame if it was at the expense of our baseball team. Losing revenue from 50 home games for baseball at Shaw Park in favour of 14 home games for soccer may not be the best option. Perhaps it makes the most sense for the Valour FC to play out of IGF as they may require a larger venue anyway due to the popularity of soccer in this city.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by DowntownBooster

There are many Goldeyes fans that would be disappointed to see the team and/or league fold. The team provides 50 home games of entertainment each year for those fans. The Goldeyes are a well run organization and have been good corporate citizens for this city. As much as I am glad we will now have a soccer team in Winnipeg with the Valour FC, it would be a shame if it was at the expense of our baseball team. Losing revenue from 50 home games for baseball at Shaw Park in favour of 14 home games for soccer may not be the best option. Perhaps it makes the most sense for the Valour FC to play out of IGF as they may require a larger venue anyway due to the popularity of soccer in this city.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not rooting for it to happen. In my view the more teams in town, the better.

I'm just saying that soccer isn't quite established enough to justify a new 5 to 10 thousand seat pro venue right away. However, if something were ever to happen to the AA/Goldeyes, the ballpark could probably be reconfigured for soccer in a hurry. But for now, IGF will do.

[Goldie]

The Goldeyes are about 1,000X better-run than the Bombers. Instead of listing why, just look at what each franchise has done on and off the field the last 25 years. Case closed. (what's so wonderful about "community ownership" again? Someone refresh me).

One of my biggest issues w/ the Bombers is they let Canad Inns Stadium completely fall apart. I'm worried they'll do the exact same thing w/ IGF. It's already a poorly-built facility (we could write a novel based on all its problems due to the rushed, cheap construction ordered by the Blue).

Like I said in an earlier post, I'm willing to maybe attend 1 of these soccer games in the next year but they're already off to a very poor start... we'll see what happens.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Goldie

One of my biggest issues w/ the Bombers is they let Canad Inns Stadium completely fall apart. I'm worried they'll do the exact same thing w/ IGF.

By the time the Bombers took control of the old stadium in 2004 it was already 50 years old and in pretty rough shape. They can't be blamed for neglect by Winnipeg Enterprises. By contrast, IGF has been well maintained so far.

What is the poor start that you're talking about? This all sounds like quite a stretch to me.

[buzzg]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't mean to get off on a tangent with you here but high schools routinely drawing in that range are exceptionally rare. Probably no more than a few in a nation of 300 million+.

For whatever reason in Canada the popular myth is that every other American high school plays in something like this:



When in reality the average experience is more along the lines of this:

This is about the same as what half the CPL teams will be playing in – and those high schools in the US are probably selling out all 2,000+ seats. You also just picked a random photo. All through the south there are high schools with 5000+ seat stadiums. It's not that rare.

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Was there actually a TNSE/Goldeyes stadium proposal for the local CPL team? I don't remember hearing about it. I wouldn't necessarily expect Katz to play that nicely with Chipman either, although I suppose money talks.

Soccer and baseball players are so finicky about their fields that it's hard to imagine them ever sharing a stadium. Although in some respects, the Goldeyes/AA folding could be the best thing to happen to soccer in Winnipeg as with a bit of renovation/expansion you'd basically have a top notch soccer stadium downtown ready to go.

As I understand it the CPL idea was originally hatched with the involvement of the CFL, so there was a natural connection between the new soccer team and the Bombers. Although I guess having the only pro-calibre soccer stadium in town probably helped in that regard too.

Yeah I can't imagine them working together either. I also can't imagine Katz willing to go through what would be required to put a soccer field in there (if it would even fit) and ruin the fan experience for the Goldeyes games.

Originally Posted by Goldie

The Goldeyes are about 1,000X better-run than the Bombers. Instead of listing why, just look at what each franchise has done on and off the field the last 25 years. Case closed. (what's so wonderful about "community ownership" again? Someone refresh me).

One of my biggest issues w/ the Bombers is they let Canad Inns Stadium completely fall apart. I'm worried they'll do the exact same thing w/ IGF. It's already a poorly-built facility (we could write a novel based on all its problems due to the rushed, cheap construction ordered by the Blue).

Like I said in an earlier post, I'm willing to maybe attend 1 of these soccer games in the next year but they're already off to a very poor start... we'll see what happens.

This is what happens when government is responsible for running private enterprise. A lot of the Bombers' issues in the last few decades has been due to an incompetent or overly hands-on board. Luckily this seems to have changed since the hiring of Wade Miller and the board is less active. Wade has done an outstanding job righting the sinking ship, I just don't understand how some people have bad things to say about him.

[Ando]

You seem strangely over-pessimistic about a team that is just starting out and there is no way of measuring success or failure to date. It seems the real issue is you have a hate on for the Bombers.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by buzzg

This is about the same as what half the CPL teams will be playing in – and those high schools in the US are probably selling out all 2,000+ seats. You also just picked a random photo. All through the south there are high schools with 5000+ seat stadiums. It's not that rare.



Yeah I can't imagine them working together either. I also can't imagine Katz willing to go through what would be required to put a soccer field in there (if it would even fit) and ruin the fan experience for the Goldeyes games.



This is what happens when government is responsible for running private enterprise. A lot of the Bombers' issues in the last few decades has been due to an incompetent or overly hands-on board. Luckily this seems to have changed since the hiring of Wade Miller and the board is less active. Wade has done an outstanding job righting the sinking ship, I just don't understand how some people have bad things to say about him.

When did government run private enterprise in the case of the Bombers? It’s community-owned. As far as stadiums go, I don’t know of any that don’t require government $$.

[cutchemist42]

Originally Posted by Ando

I've never heard of it, but apparently cutchemist will fill us in about it.

Some of more informed posters that were leaking accurate Valour news on r/MLS and r/CanPL. As its not my source, all I can say is I believed it based on how they seemed to know other things before.

[Ando]

Originally Posted by cutchemist42

Some of more informed posters that were leaking accurate Valour news on r/MLS and r/CanPL. As its not my source, all I can say is I believed it based on how they seemed to know other things before.

So tell us more about it and give your source then.