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  #61  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2009, 7:49 PM
kaneui kaneui is offline
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I don't hold much hope for large retail businesses at CityScape being successful in the immediate future. AJ's and most of the others were signed when there was a promise of lots of new condos and apartments within the project, and 44 Monroe and Summit were still looking viable. Of course, all of that has changed, and most new residents downtown are ASU students and maybe a few more at the Alta Lofts.

As the adage goes, retail follows rooftops, and there just aren't the numbers to support much more of it at the moment (particularly if it's just another outpost of a suburban mall store.)
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  #62  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2009, 10:43 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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People hate parking garage? Why?

I love parking garages, especially in Arizona, seeing how they provide shade for the car.
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  #63  
Old Posted Nov 16, 2009, 11:00 PM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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what a silly thing to get worked up about... parking garages.

They allow lots of people to park their cars in a small area, i don't see why it's so evil.
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  #64  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2009, 12:01 AM
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^No kidding.

As someone who has designed several parking garages, I can tell you that I like them alot. Certainly better that a crappy asphalt lot (especially in 115 degrees)!
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  #65  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2009, 7:37 AM
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I'm not buying that most people hate parking garages either. Especially in Arizona. It's one thing if you're in Europe and the stalls were built to hold VWs and Fiat 500s, but they're plenty spacious here.

The one big thing is that garages tend to get built where one can charge for its use, where surface lots generally aren't (there are lots of exceptions of course, but generally that's true). But if you compare free lots vs free garages (I believe the McClintock garage is one of the more utilized Park & Ride spots on the light rail) or if you see how many people are willing to pay extra for the garage on any given day at the airport economy lots, I just don't buy that.
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  #66  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2009, 3:42 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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I don't know...here in AZ its still a strange concept for the locals to actually have to pay for parking in DT. Its mind-boggling for them.

"You mean I have to pay $5-10 to park my F150 for the day? Forget it, I'll stay in the burbs."
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  #67  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2009, 5:08 PM
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mwadswor mwadswor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo the Dog View Post
I don't know...here in AZ its still a strange concept for the locals to actually have to pay for parking in DT. Its mind-boggling for them.

"You mean I have to pay $5-10 to park my F150 for the day? Forget it, I'll stay in the burbs."
I agree, I don't think it's the garage that bothers people, it's the paying for parking that bothers people. Not enough free parking is one of the consistent complaints I hear about both DT Phoenix and Tempe.

The bad news is that it's just unrealistic (and annoying) for the city to continue to bend over backwards to provide enough parking, up to and including killing big projects because they won't fund enough garage space. Unfortunately, in a lot of situations the suburbanites are right. It's annoying from a promoting urbanism/densification perspective, but why should they pay to park downtown when they can probably find free parking for a similar (if not identical in the case of chains) store somewhere outside of downtown. There needs to be more unique downtown to force people to go there if you expect any substantial number of people to pay to park there.

On the other hand, the good news is that a lot of people would rather park for free and ride the light rail the last mile to their destination when they actually have to go somewhere where close free parking just isn't a possibility (sports, concerts, shows DT, etc.). I guess that just reenforces the idea that suburbanites will bend over backwards to avoid paying for parking, but it is nice for light rail ridership
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  #68  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2009, 5:44 PM
NorthScottsdale NorthScottsdale is offline
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/\ I'm guilty of that one. haha. I park in the CVS lot on central and osborn and ride light rail into downtown. I hate paying for parking.
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  #69  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2009, 5:59 PM
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That's definitely a primary motive for ASU students to take light rail too. You save the $780/year on a parking permit and the University/Rural station is actually closer to most classrooms than half of the parking spaces on campus.

I would guess that alone probably accounts for a few thousand extra passengers a day.
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  #70  
Old Posted Nov 17, 2009, 7:25 PM
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I have nothing against parking structures, but the one at AZ Center is crap. It is cramped for all but the smallest cars, takes a long time to navigate in and out of, and the automated payment system does not ever seem to work properly.

Or maybe I'm holding a grudge for the the time the exit gate ate my money, my ticket, and wouldn't let me out of the garage...
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  #71  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 5:23 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Time is money.

It amazes me that people will waste an hour of their time to ride the LR (roundtrip) than to pay $5-10 to park. Basically you're saying you are only worth $5-10/hour.

Oh well. There are a lot of things about this city that don't make too much sense.
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  #72  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2009, 5:56 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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But it actually takes less time to use the LRT because of the gridlock after a game/event
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  #73  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 1:13 AM
NorthScottsdale NorthScottsdale is offline
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who gets paid every hour of the day? Time may be money if you're running late for work, but that's about it. If you take a twenty minute light rail ride to get into downtown, time is actually saving you money
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  #74  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 7:20 AM
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Before the light rail opened and metered parking changed it was nearly impossible to find open spaces, now empty spaces are a dime a dozen.

People definitely don't like paying for parking, myself included.
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  #75  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 2:57 PM
glynnjamin glynnjamin is offline
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Ya, you know it is so nice now that I can actually run somewhere downtown in my car. I had to go to a meeting at District and then head out to the East Valley. Normally I'd walk but it would have added too much time and put me late to my next meeting in the EV so I drove. Found a meter, right across the street, paid using my debit card (no change needed), ate, hopped back in my car, and I was in Mesa in no time. I remember a time when I wouldn't even consider taking a car somewhere downtown because I'd end up having to park in front of my house to find a space. Glad they raised the rates. I wouldn't object to higher rates.
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  #76  
Old Posted Nov 19, 2009, 5:06 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Very good points above about parking. (And I'm a huge supporter of LRT in Phx) I hate paying for parking also. The meter rates are a little steep. $1.50/hour?! Who carries that much coinage around?

It wouldn't be that bad if the meters turned off at 6pm though. I think that 8pm is too late.
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  #77  
Old Posted May 20, 2011, 6:14 PM
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bringing this thread back from the dead....

...so being here in Boston and seeing an incredibly successful Festival Marketplace, Faneuil Hall/Quincy Market, thats always full of people has got me thinking more about the AZ Center and why it played out like it did. If you look at this list of Festival Marketplace concepts what do most of the successful ones have in common that the Arizona Center doesn't have? A tie to historic buildings in the City and the Cities history.

I've now been to Atlanta Underground, Harborplace in Baltimore, Faneuil Hall in Boston & Union Station in St Louis and a huge part of their appeal is the historic element. People aren't really driving/commuting all the way to them for the Foot Locker, Hooters, Dicks Last Resort or whatever other cheezy chain may be renting space their. School groups head their for Field Trips centered around history, tourists and convention visitors visit to get a sense of the City, etc.

Looking back on the AZ Center it should've been "The Luhr's Center" bounded by Jefferson, Madison, 1st and 1st. Central Ave could've gone underground at Jefferson (and re-emerge south of the tracks like it still does) to create a safe pedestrian area between the two blocks.

The existing Luhr's Building & Tower could've been converted to boutique hotels (no hotel space really hurt the AZ Center) or lofts (no housing also hurt the AZ Center). The Barrister Building could've been restored to its former life as the Jefferson hotel. The parking garage could've had its bottom floor as well as the alley space between the two buildings converted into a tight, shaded, farmers/public market.

The space between the Luhr's Building and Tower could've been developed with a modern office tower above the existing historic street level retail. Office towers also could've filled out the remaining surface lots where the Barrister Building sits. The development could've also either spilt South to Madison where there's still some historic warehouses or North to the current lot where the CityScape tower & hotel are. If the project also included the current Cityscape Hotel/Office tower block it would've helped Patriots Square Park a ton as it would've been surrounded on all sides and felt like an outdoor urban 'room'.

This location would've made more sense as it would've fed into Patriots Square Park (which could've been redesigned/upkept better) and been directly adjacent to America West when it opened 2 years later. Designing Patriots Square and the Luhr's complex to play up Phoenix's history (with more historic plaques & signs, statues, markers, retro street lamps, etc) would've made the Arizona Center unique and not just another shopping mall.

Luckily, a lot of what I'm talking about here still could be done someday. Those 2 blocks with the Barrister & Luhr's buildings have some of the most potential in PHX. With our huge shortage of historic buildings they ought to be pretty valuable if redeveloped properly.
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  #78  
Old Posted May 25, 2011, 6:29 PM
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So is anything else planned for that area? It was actually the first thing I checked out (discovered) when I moved here last month. Easy access from the airport. Do those trees that they light up at night remind anyone else of that tree in Avatar?
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  #79  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2011, 1:35 AM
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While out in the "West Valley" area (Peoria) I had a chance to eat at this bakery; it was pretty good. A nice addition to AZ Center. With convention and hotel traffic routing more and more through the center, ownership should refocus on ground level retail. It's just too bad they can't knock down the entire thing (minus the garden and high-rises) and build this thing to face outward. Maybe the Boston firm that owns AZ Center has future plans to do so since those in Boston are familiar with good urban design.

http://www.azcentral.com/members/Blog/PHXBeat/137352
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  #80  
Old Posted Mar 9, 2014, 7:06 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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A few weeks ago, I posted a link to a very rough site plan I had put together for a renovated Arizona Center; since then, I re-read this thread and also took a look at the build-out plan for the Biomedical Campus and realized that if Arizona Center isn't re-designed, the entire center of downtown will be over-run by inward facing, cold educational buildings as the ASU and Biomedical Campus have claim to nearly all the land between Garfield and Van Buren, Central to 7th Street, and the Convention Center and Hotels cover the next couple of blocks toward the northeast.

If Arizona Center could serve as a hub for all of those various groups to come together, there would at least be multiple clusters of entertainment spread throughout downtown - Roosevelt to the north, AZ Center in the center, and CityScape/Sporting Venues to the south. Otherwise, the stretch between Roosevelt and US Airways along 5th or 3rd is horrifically dull and uninviting. For a Center that has only been around 20 years, 3 renovations seems like an awful lot: first adding the theater, second adding offices to the 2nd and 3rd floors along with a cosmetic update, and now the facade updates they're doing. Why not just stop picking at what's a much larger problem?

So, anyway, with that said, I made some changes. Obviously, activating 3rd Street to become more inviting to the ASU campus and Convention Hotel was still item #1, done by wrapped patios, "to-go" stands, balconies on the upper levels, and bisecting the Center and allowing Taylor to go all the way through.



The main goals for the northern portion of the Center were:
1) Bringing in market rate residential heavily marketed toward the Biomedical Campus workers and students and ASU would bring in the necessary pedestrian numbers to support the retail and to activate the street scene.
2) Based on posts in this thread, there should be elements of the Center that are uniquely Arizona; we can't move historic building stock over, but we can make smarter choices in the retail mix to appeal to conventioneers who want that authentic experience. A museum, micropub, and monuments/plaques throughout would give all visitors a sense of place.
3) Diversifying the retail mix ensures that the success of the retail, which will in turn support the restaurants within the Garden portion. Quick services for the Biomedical and other office workers, accessory shops for conventioneers, clothing and department store retail for residents, and a theater/museum that are appropriate for all ages.
4) Increasing convenience by offering an abundance of street level parking, which also helps to increase the visibility of all the stores.



I think the retail mix is realistic for a renovated center; all the stores are expanding heavily in urban areas, and would be new to the central Phoenix market. They're also not your typical "big box" stores or even boutique stores, which would still be aimed at a shopping street along Van Buren. The stores are all fairly middle-class and priced appropriately for the nearby residents.

Obviously, even if this plan was somehow feasible, I don't think the hotel or the residential tower would be doable at the same time as the other improvements.

Last edited by Jjs5056; Mar 9, 2014 at 7:34 AM.
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