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  #1  
Old Posted Feb 11, 2013, 4:32 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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Midwest meets Southwest! Neat!

I'm going to assume this master planned community probably doesn't have a lot of fans here considering the probably inappropriate use of water for the desert and the knowoff historic home look but I went to check out Agritopia today after hearing about it over the years, plus wanted to try Joe's Farm Grill.

Houses were pretty cool I have to say, as were the streets. Definitely unique for the Phoenix area and it felt pretty authentic, if you didn't know any better you'd think you were in one of the historic districts downtown.

Houses were all built within the past 10 years. They also kept a 12 acre farm in tact at the center of the community where you can rent small parcels of land to farm yourself.

Grabbed some lunch first...




Walked around the farm for a bit afterwards...people doing their gardening/farming...


Then toured some of the neighborhoods. Houses looked great, garages in the back and you were only allowed to park on one side of the street, which I've never even seen before.











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Old Posted Feb 11, 2013, 1:42 PM
nickw252 nickw252 is offline
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I have friends that live just south of agritopia and I had no idea it looked like that. As far as suburbs go I really like it. It's much better than snout-houses and McMansions. I'd imagine that in 30 years those houses will hold their value much better than other subdivisions built in that era. I also noticed on google maps that the neighborhood isn't full of curvy roads and cul de sacs FTW.
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Old Posted Feb 11, 2013, 5:03 PM
Leo the Dog Leo the Dog is offline
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Neo-traditional. I love it. The lots arent that big so i wouldnt think water use is too high. They did simple things like: place the garages in the back, separate the sidewalk from the street with a grass strip and shade trees, large street facing front porch, welcoming guests and neighbors.

This could be anywhere USA. It actually reminds me of historic California. The street lamps look identical to the ones in CA, providing light, but not overly huge and noticeable.
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  #4  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 12:05 AM
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HooverDam HooverDam is offline
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I have issues w/ Agritopia, but Ill take it over typical Tuscan McManshion sprawl any day.

I dislike the cheap materials (many of those white fences are plastic, don't try sitting on them! I did, broke right through and fell on my ass), the faux-historcism is bleck, and for whatever reason the whole place has a very "Stepford Wives" vibe. All the women I've seen walking around look like Bimbots, very strange. The name is also kinda creepy.

But the narrower streets, garages in the rear, smaller lots, non spagehttified street patterns, some mix of retail and agriculture into the development are all good things.

Unfortunately because its hemmed in by a freeway, and 2 mini freeways (Arterial roads) it'll never be truly walkable. People will still have to take cars to work, church and most schools. But its nice they can walk for coffee or to their neighbors house, its a step in the right direction.

Verrado, way out in Buckeye, is similar, but with less faux historic stuff. Its similarly nice, and equally unappealing due to its extremely far flung location.
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Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 12:57 AM
nickw252 nickw252 is offline
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Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
Verrado, way out in Buckeye, is similar, but with less faux historic stuff. Its similarly nice, and equally unappealing due to its extremely far flung location.
My wife and I went and toured Verrado one Saturday that we were bored. We were blown away at how nice it was. The neighborhood's location is bad being so far out there but the neighborhood design, mixed uses, and nice houses with garages in the back was a breath of fresh air. If we were to choose to live in the 'burbs Verrado would be the first place we look.
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  #6  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 1:37 AM
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Originally Posted by nickw252 View Post
My wife and I went and toured Verrado one Saturday that we were bored. We were blown away at how nice it was. The neighborhood's location is bad being so far out there but the neighborhood design, mixed uses, and nice houses with garages in the back was a breath of fresh air. If we were to choose to live in the 'burbs Verrado would be the first place we look.
Both Verrado and Agritopia follow Adres Duany's New Urbanism concepts. Which I must admit do create really great communities. It is all about creating human scale, walkable communities. Which is fantastic! I do have one BIG bone to pick with new urbanism, which is that it tries to create traditional architecture. Of its nine principles, the 6th principle of new urbanism is crating a traditional neighborhood structure. This in turn has created communities that try to make-up a fake past. whether it is Agritopia's fake mid-west past to countless other examples. Why does it have to have a tie-in to something fake? Why can't it create its own identity? That being said, it does create much better suburban environments. I would love to see someone take those principles, scrap the traditional look, and create a contemporary urban environment from this ideology.
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Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 1:53 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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That's an excellent point. Why can't more new developments be built with the styles of the homes you see today in almost all neighborhoods, but with the concepts of Agritopia, such as the narrower streets, garages in the back, tree lined streets and planters dividing the sidewalk from the road?
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  #8  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 1:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
That's an excellent point. Why can't more new developments be built with the styles of the homes you see today in almost all neighborhoods, but with the concepts of Agritopia, such as the narrower streets, garages in the back, tree lined streets and planters dividing the sidewalk from the road?
I really don't see a good reason beyond lack of desire by developers.

By the way, here are the principles of New Urbanism as copied from newurbanmom.com:


1. Walkability

-Most things within a 10-minute walk of home and work

-Pedestrian friendly street design (buildings close to street; porches, windows & doors; tree-lined streets; on street parking; hidden parking lots; garages in rear lane; narrow, slow speed streets)

-Pedestrian streets free of cars in special cases

2. Connectivity

-Interconnected street grid network disperses traffic & eases walking

-A hierarchy of narrow streets, boulevards, and alleys

-High quality pedestrian network and public realm makes walking pleasurable

3. Mixed-Use & Diversity

-A mix of shops, offices, apartments, and homes on site. Mixed-use within neighborhoods, within blocks, and within buildings

-Diversity of people – of ages, income levels, cultures, and races

4. Mixed Housing

A range of types, sizes and prices in closer proximity

5. Quality Architecture & Urban Design

Emphasis on beauty, aesthetics, human comfort, and creating a sense of place; Special placement of civic uses and sites within community. Human scale architecture & beautiful surroundings nourish the human spirit

6. Traditional Neighborhood Structure

-Discernable center and edge
-Public space at center
-Importance of quality public realm; public open space designed as civic art
-Contains a range of uses and densities within 10-minute walk
-Transect planning: Highest densities at town center; progressively less dense towards the edge. The transect is an analytical system that conceptualizes mutually reinforcing elements, creating a series of specific natural habitats and/or urban lifestyle settings. The Transect integrates environmental methodology for habitat assessment with zoning methodology for community design. The professional boundary between the natural and man-made disappears, enabling environmentalists to assess the
design of the human habitat and the urbanists to support the viability of nature. This urban-to-rural transect hierarchy has appropriate building and street types for each area along the continuum.

7. Increased Density

-More buildings, residences, shops, and services closer together for ease of walking, to enable a more efficient use of services and resources, and to create a more convenient, enjoyable place to live.
-New Urbanism design principles are applied at the full range of densities from small towns, to large cities

8. Smart Transportation

-A network of high-quality trains connecting cities, towns, and neighborhoods together
-Pedestrian-friendly design that encourages a greater use of bicycles, rollerblades, scooters, and walking as daily transportation

9. Sustainability

-Minimal environmental impact of development and its operations
-Eco-friendly technologies, respect for ecology and value of natural systems
-Energy efficiency
-Less use of finite fuels
-More local production
-More walking, less driving

10. Quality of Life

Taken together these add up to a high quality of life well worth living, and create places that enrich, uplift, and inspire the human spirit.
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  #9  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 6:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HX_Guy View Post
That's an excellent point. Why can't more new developments be built with the styles of the homes you see today in almost all neighborhoods, but with the concepts of Agritopia, such as the narrower streets, garages in the back, tree lined streets and planters dividing the sidewalk from the road?
Well I'm not sure what you mean by "styles of homes you see today". Do you mean faux Tuscan stuff? Faux Tuscan is just as silly as Faux Midwest or Faux anything else.

When you get into the details of New Urbanism, there's stuff outlining how houses should have front porches, how deep they should be, etc. Then they often go too far into the silliness with the faux history and hating all things modern. While Modernism screwed up a lot of stuff, especially the way neighborhoods were laid out, New Urbanist make the mistake of tossing out the Baby with the bath water.

What I'd LOVE to see in a new development if any developer had the brains/balls is a streetplan like Agritopia/Verrado, with homes that were a contemporary continuation of something like this:



But with a front porch.
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Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 6:18 PM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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That looks like a mid-century modern home...how would that be any different then the craftsman style homes in Agritopia? It may be more to your taste, but it's still building something from a different era.

When I think of a Phoenix area house built today, I picture something like this...



Now obviously that has the garage right front and center, so there would be some tweaks, but the main look and architecture I think says "today".

I actually just noticed that they actually do have trees planted in gravel filled planters between the sidewalk and road, so I guess there are more neighborhoods doing that now.
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  #11  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 10:14 PM
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^Notice I said a "contemporary continuation" of a home like that Haver Home. The home like you posted isn't really architecture, its just blah. Nothing about it is designed or built for Phoenix ,or the desert. Ralph Haver, Jimmy Nunn, Blane Drake and Al Beadler were creating thoughtful homes for the desert with open floor plans, plenty of windows, but also plenty of shade, proper orientation, etc. Sadly today thats not being done on a neighborhood wide scale anywhere in Arizona, its only done for expensive custom homes.

I could've also sited homes by Bruder or Eddie Jones but on a more affordable/mass produced scale as an example.

While the Haverhome I posted is from a different time, its not from a different place. The current garbage that KB Homes, TW Lewis, Pulte, Del Webb, etc are all building is entirely irrelevant to the desert in every way. Its only 'contemporary' in that its being built currently, not that its the best of whats being built currently.
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  #12  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 10:36 PM
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I had no idea this even existed. My dad lives a few miles from here so I'll have to go exploring next time I've over there.

I went through one of these recently in Orlando (Lake Baldwin) and was pleasantly suprised at the amount of nodal activity.

I worked on a project down in Mexico with Jeff Speck and some guys from Duany's office a few years ago. They really know their stuff. A big part of the New Urbanist doctrine as they practice it is also understanding what they can sell to banks and developers. Those entities are looking at risk allocation. And while Jones, Bruder or Rick Joy might be able to come up with a mass produced 'desert' vernacular, banks and developers are (and always have been) unsure if something like that sells at a large suburban type scale. And because the un-educated masses are more familiar with Craftsman, Victorian, Colonial, etc type houses, they happily pay for it (faux or not).
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Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by plinko View Post
I had no idea this even existed. My dad lives a few miles from here so I'll have to go exploring next time I've over there.

I went through one of these recently in Orlando (Lake Baldwin) and was pleasantly suprised at the amount of nodal activity.

I worked on a project down in Mexico with Jeff Speck and some guys from Duany's office a few years ago. They really know their stuff. A big part of the New Urbanist doctrine as they practice it is also understanding what they can sell to banks and developers. Those entities are looking at risk allocation. And while Jones, Bruder or Rick Joy might be able to come up with a mass produced 'desert' vernacular, banks and developers are (and always have been) unsure if something like that sells at a large suburban type scale. And because the un-educated masses are more familiar with Craftsman, Victorian, Colonial, etc type houses, they happily pay for it (faux or not).
Are you talking about Loreto? It is a pretty cool project, although I must admit there are some social issues about building towns where the locals can't afford to live there and are made up by 99% foreign residents. But that is a whole different can of worms.

It is not only the banks that fear risk. Even more so is developers. Most developers have found something they know how to do, and will repeat it a trillion times until it is not profitable. Then when that happens, they will tweak it a bit. But as a whole, they really don't want new and innovative ideas. I know many developers who can't even read floor plans. They have inherited their businesses from their fathers (who actually did know a thing or two about their trade), and now are just clueless. That is our biggest issue in the valley, developers who could care less not only about design, but also the quality of product they produce in general. It is all a quantity game for them. Not all of them are this way, but the great majority.
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  #14  
Old Posted Feb 13, 2013, 11:34 PM
westbev93 westbev93 is offline
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Plinko's point applies to all construction, and it is something that people ignore a lot with respect to commercial development and explains why even rehabbed historic retail buildings (like 7th Ave and McDowell) seems as ubiquitous as suburban commercial. Developers need financing (because few are foolish enough to risk their own capital when you can risk the bank's capital), but banks are reluctant to fund developments unless it looks like something they have seen a return on in the past. So houses look the same, and you get the same national tenants in every retail building.
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Old Posted Feb 14, 2013, 12:18 AM
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Are you talking about Loreto? It is a pretty cool project, although I must admit there are some social issues about building towns where the locals can't afford to live there and are made up by 99% foreign residents. But that is a whole different can of worms.
Yes, I was one (of many) Project Architects on several portions of that project: a hotel/ commercial node, an industrial 'artisan' area, as well as a few houses in the development. It was an interesting area to work in. I didn't have so much of an issue with the foreign issue as I did with the notion of being 'sustainable'. After living in Arizona for so many years my reaction to the place was simply 'if you want to be sustainable in THIS location, then you don't build anything at all'. Loreto is a place to go fishing or desert exploring and should be much less grandiose or touristy than places down the coast.

I found the town of Loreto itself to be generally much more interesting, but unfortunately all my trips down there were spent working and not much on the sight-seeing side.

But anyway...that's totally off-topic.

To add to Westbev's comment, I found this to be the case when I practiced in Arizona over a decade ago. The Cotton Center was held out to be the model for so many things it was sickening. As someone designing commercial buildings in Phoenix at the time, it was horrifying to have to listen to over and over. It had a huge affect on how I viewed the Valley and was one of the primary causes of my leaving (I decided that I wanted to design custom homes instead).

The fact that I still see Bizjournal articles that reference the Cotton Center (such as that new project along Rio Salado near Priest) just tells me that little has changed in the intervening decade.
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Old Posted Feb 14, 2013, 1:30 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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I had the same initial reaction when I saw Agritopia for hte first time, then they built Verrado and it was 100 x's better. Sometimes I go to a Saturday bike ride that ends up going through Verrado, up Verrado Way and then turns west on Main Street. It's my favorite place to blast through on a bike because I always feel like Marty McFly when he traveled back to Hill Valley in the 60's.
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Old Posted Feb 14, 2013, 3:01 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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I had the same initial reaction when I saw Agritopia for hte first time, then they built Verrado and it was 100 x's better. Sometimes I go to a Saturday bike ride that ends up going through Verrado, up Verrado Way and then turns west on Main Street. It's my favorite place to blast through on a bike because I always feel like Marty McFly when he traveled back to Hill Valley in the 60's.
For some reason I thought Verrado felt creepy, like this weird bubble and more like a movie set than Agritopia did, not sure why.
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Old Posted Feb 14, 2013, 3:04 AM
HX_Guy HX_Guy is offline
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^Notice I said a "contemporary continuation" of a home like that Haver Home. The home like you posted isn't really architecture, its just blah. Nothing about it is designed or built for Phoenix ,or the desert. Ralph Haver, Jimmy Nunn, Blane Drake and Al Beadler were creating thoughtful homes for the desert with open floor plans, plenty of windows, but also plenty of shade, proper orientation, etc. Sadly today thats not being done on a neighborhood wide scale anywhere in Arizona, its only done for expensive custom homes.

I could've also sited homes by Bruder or Eddie Jones but on a more affordable/mass produced scale as an example.

While the Haverhome I posted is from a different time, its not from a different place. The current garbage that KB Homes, TW Lewis, Pulte, Del Webb, etc are all building is entirely irrelevant to the desert in every way. Its only 'contemporary' in that its being built currently, not that its the best of whats being built currently.
Can you do all that stuff though and still compete in price with the builders that will still pump out the same old cookie cutter houses though? I mean I could see it on a more custom level or smaller speciality builder, which of course would mean higher costs.

On the architecture side, you may be surprised how many people not only like these "bleh" designs but actually prefer them. Why I wouldn't say I prefer them, I certainly don't hate them. I just think they need to have more of those features that Agritopia has.
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Old Posted Feb 14, 2013, 4:25 AM
Vicelord John Vicelord John is offline
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Wait.

Verrado felt creepy yet agritopia didn't feel like step ford?????
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  #20  
Old Posted Feb 14, 2013, 6:34 AM
MegaBass MegaBass is offline
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Gilbert Agritopia mixed-use business village in works

Quote:
Joe Johnston, a Gilbert man behind several popular restaurants and an award-winning residential community, plans to open a new mixed-use business village near Higley and Ray roads by October 2013.

Epicenter at Agritopia will consist of restaurants, retail shops, professional offices and residential lofts, Johnston told The Republic. The phased development will eventually cover about 20 acres within the master-planned community.

Although many grocery-anchored shopping centers struggle with vacancies and foreclosure, Johnston wants Epicenter to stand out as a unique destination for residents Valley-wide and even tourists, he said.

"We plan for this to be a nationally known place," Johnston said. "When you come to Phoenix, this is one of the places you'll want to visit."

A handful of Johnston's business ventures have already earned national recognition.

Joe's Farm Grill, built in the former Johnston family homestead, was featured on the Food Network's "Diners, Drive-Ins and Dives." The next-door coffee shop has been featured on the same network's show, "Cupcake Wars."

Johnston's restaurants remain popular with local crowds. He owns Joe's Real BBQ and Liberty Market, and both restaurants draw steady lunch and dinner crowds to downtown Gilbert.

The new business center will feature another Johnston restaurant as well as hand-picked companies from other local entrepreneurs.

"If you go to a typical mall, you'll be hard-pressed to find someone really passionate about their business," Johnston said. "A lot of them are not committed to quality; they're committed to the bottom line."

The businesses at Epicenter have to be different, Johnston said. He'll look for entrepreneurs who are passionate, know their craft and are committed to quality. They'll also need a solid business plan and the right personality, he said.

"We are betting on a person, whereas at most shopping centers you're betting on a balance sheet," Johnston said.

Epicenter at Agritopia will likely feature independent businesses rather than chains, although Johnston said he's open to including certain chain restaurants, such as Houston's, if the California-based company were interested.

Along with shops and restaurants, the development will include second-floor office space and residential lofts. There will likely also be a fitness center and a wine bar or brewery, Johnston said.

The mixed-use element of Epicenter at Agritopia is something Johnston hopes will promote the same sense of community that already exists in the neighborhood.

The development's name is based on the concept of concentric rings emanating from the heart of Agritopia. Many of the business owners will live within or near the community.

"In a village, everybody knows everybody," Johnston said. "The idea of living and working together makes for us relying on each other in more ways than one. It makes for an integrated life that is more satisfying and stress-free."

Generating a unique collective identity rather than relying on a single large anchor will help the village avoid some of the issues that have plagued other retail centers, Johnston said.

"If (the anchor) goes away, it devastates the entire center," Johnston said. "So we decided not to go down that path."

Even though the projected opening date is still two years away, the business plan is already sparking excitement from Gilbert residents and business owners.

"We have more interested users than we can probably accommodate," Johnston said. Entrepreneurs interested in future phases can contact Johnston via e-mail at epicenter@agritopia.com, he said.

Funding for the project will come solely from private cash, not bank lending, Johnston said. He declined to disclose the sources of the private funds.
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