Western Expresso

[dennis]

Originally Posted by headhorse

you want more money for health care? drastically reduce the number of cops. reduce their pay. tax high income earners more. do you care about the livelihood of indigenous peoples? advocate for them. support their causes. stop letting corporations destroy the land and steal resources.

Bang on except for the last part. I would change the last part to "encourage corporations to sustainably mine our resources and reward those that employ more people with good wages."

[Cyro]

Let's keep the discussion civil going forward, if posters choose to continue in this vein.

I'm sure all posters are aware that if a comment is determined to be racist in nature in the opinion of a moderator, a suspension will be immediately implemented on said poster. So please use your best judgment before you click the submit button going forward with this line of discussion.

[1ajs]

aww riding with the cops gives u a scewed view... go volunteer with the bear clan patrol and walk the streets and be apart of the community through support meet the people rather then hang out with jaided police who get treated with distane by a people who feel crushed and fear.

last week i stoped and talked to 5 natives drinking in a lane yongest was 40 oldest was 65 4 women 1 guy

what i learned its easier to collect welfare pump babies out and drink all the time then it is to try climb the ladder to success with how they keeo getting pushed down u get crushed.... yea they made choices along the way to keep them there but is it a choice when u dont know anything els when ur mind is fogged in so much pain u strugle to function and burry urself with firewater and if u try and get through school go out there for work and get stuck nowhere fast and slip back into old patterns as u get depressed again.

we have a 3rd world country within our country in pockets time to stop putting them down time to reach out and make change from building a water plant with staff brought in from out of town and mentorship programs at the highschool for kids to come work there with training and certification if they stay and run the place cool if they move away u keep doing this creating an opertunity to learn and grow creating links and opening eyes to theres more then just drinking theres actualy things to do and can be done.

and if u think im nuts for the water issue u relize that an operator of the drinking water plant can make 40bucks an hr in wpg its also a realy dificult certification to pass people with engineering degrees and bio related degress struggle to pass it...

we need people to plow snow fix roads there another opertunity to train youth slowly they could grow people with these skills and they could go on and start their own business's and hire more youth ect and go out from the reserves even get contracts maintaining the roads to their remote communities even build them.......

the native people are our future with the fastest growing pop in the country do we want a damaged people or a healing people?

enough with the racist bs plz more love for our family we call canada cause we are and perhaps we need to get rid of the indian act as Douglas Cardinal said on the 16 at the walrus talks at the cmhr.


theres a red rising happening read thas magizine http://redrisingmagazine.ca/ see the future the hope that is being born befor u shoot down another geniration

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by dennis

Bang on except for the last part. I would change the last part to "encourage corporations to sustainably mine our resources and reward those that employ more people with good wages."

Taxing higher earners won't help. Winnipeg has to realize it isn't in the position to drive high contributors away... High earners have found it much easier to leave Winnipeg than BC, AB, ONT, etc, and we don't need to give them another reason.

Originally Posted by 1ajs

aww riding with the cops gives u a scewed view... go volunteer with the bear clan patrol and walk the streets and be apart of the community through support meet the people rather then hang out with jaided police who get treated with distane by a people who feel crushed and fear.

last week i stoped and talked to 5 natives drinking in a lane yongest was 40 oldest was 65 4 women 1 guy

what i learned its easier to collect welfare pump babies out and drink all the time then it is to try climb the ladder to success with how they keeo getting pushed down u get crushed.... yea they made choices along the way to keep them there but is it a choice when u dont know anything els when ur mind is fogged in so much pain u strugle to function and burry urself with firewater and if u try and get through school go out there for work and get stuck nowhere fast and slip back into old patterns as u get depressed again.

we have a 3rd world country within our country in pockets time to stop putting them down time to reach out and make change from building a water plant with staff brought in from out of town and mentorship programs at the highschool for kids to come work there with training and certification if they stay and run the place cool if they move away u keep doing this creating an opertunity to learn and grow creating links and opening eyes to theres more then just drinking theres actualy things to do and can be done.

and if u think im nuts for the water issue u relize that an operator of the drinking water plant can make 40bucks an hr in wpg its also a realy dificult certification to pass people with engineering degrees and bio related degress struggle to pass it...

we need people to plow snow fix roads there another opertunity to train youth slowly they could grow people with these skills and they could go on and start their own business's and hire more youth ect and go out from the reserves even get contracts maintaining the roads to their remote communities even build them.......

the native people are our future with the fastest growing pop in the country do we want a damaged people or a healing people?

enough with the racist bs plz more love for our family we call canada cause we are and perhaps we need to get rid of the indian act as Douglas Cardinal said on the 16 at the walrus talks at the cmhr.


theres a red rising happening read thas magizine http://redrisingmagazine.ca/ see the future the hope that is being born befor u shoot down another geniration

There certainly is a problem with the system, but we have to be careful that we do not simplify it based on capitalism or race.

Winnipeg is multicultural, no doubt, but most are white. There's no reason that the support and assistance networks for a struggling community cannot be improved. White people and capitalism are in the majority here, race itself, and capitalism itself, are not the limiting factors. It's just easy to blame this on race but other factors regardless of race contribute more.

There are gaps in our justice system and social programming that do not account for real problems. That said, I'm for smarter application of social dollars, not more.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

Not entirely, it's a poverty issue more than anything else. Despite the NDP regime's claims more in Winnipeg become poor during their reign. Programs that were supposed to help didn't and a lot of what they did had the opposite effect. Job creation and a strong economy do more for everyone than social programs!

I disagree and would put education, a social program, before opportunity, as the best way to ensure people can be contributors to society and the economy.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

I disagree and would put education, a social program, before opportunity, as the best way to ensure people can be contributors to society and the economy.

While technically correct, education is so big that it gets its own seperate category.

Nobody pro-economy or pro-business would suggest we suddenly all work at the steel factory or work in concrete.

None the less, not that people like work, but everyone hates school. You need a light at the end of the tunnel. A rich job market is a bright and shining light. Without that, education is treated with disregard by the end user, even if it's good education.

One comes before the other, no doubt, but you neeeeed both.

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

Taxing higher earners won't help. Winnipeg has to realize it isn't in the position to drive high contributors away... High earners have found it much easier to leave Winnipeg than BC, AB, ONT, etc, and we don't need to give them another reason.

If we are talking about income inequality, wealth redistribution is the best way to combat it according to the Conference Board of Canada ( ref 1, ref 2) and the OECD. You do make a point about driving high contributors away but we will never improve income inequality if we don't take a stand on our values (same goes for climate change and other moral dilemmas).

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

While technically correct, education is so big that it gets its own seperate category.

Nobody pro-economy or pro-business would suggest we suddenly all work at the steel factory or work in concrete.

None the less, not that people like work, but everyone hates school. You need a light at the end of the tunnel. A rich job market is a bright and shining light. Without that, education is treated with disregard by the end user, even if it's good education.

One comes before the other, no doubt, but you neeeeed both.

That mentality needs to change. Children (well, people) only hate something if they don't see the value in it. Both parents and educators need to be doing a better job at making education attractive to children. If you are an adult and are refusing to educate yourself with the skills necessary to contribute to society and the economy, well then I have no sympathy for you (unless, of course, it is due to circumstances beyond their control, such as cost, accessibility, etc.).

[HomeInMyShoes]

I love school. I don't like writing tests anymore, although I never did, but I still like learning new things and I need to for what I do.

I think we need to address social issues that cause bad learning environments and learning disabilities. Saskatchewan (and I'm probably right in thinking Manitoba as well) has one of the highest rates of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. This might not be solvable, but could certainly be limited more than it currently is through education and social support. It is hard to make progress if we start the next generation at a disadvantage again and again.

[OTA in Winnipeg]

Originally Posted by HomeInMyShoes

I love school. I don't like writing tests anymore, although I never did, but I still like learning new things and I need to for what I do.

I think we need to address social issues that cause bad learning environments and learning disabilities. Saskatchewan (and I'm probably right in thinking Manitoba as well) has one of the highest rates of Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. This might not be solvable, but could certainly be limited more than it currently is through education and social support. It is hard to make progress if we start the next generation at a disadvantage again and again.

This.

This is the elephant in the room. There are reserves across Manitoba with FASD rates at 40 to 50%. Some maybe higher than that and this damaged population is growing. It cannot be fixed either. And those FASD girls/women have a whole lot more of FASD kids. Those are the ones being seized, for the most part, at birth. Because we have to, not because we want to. These girls/women cannot take care of themselves and they certainly cannot take care of an infant or toddler. Then you take a look at Cross Lake for example. A population of 5,000 and 85% unemployment. How do you fix that?

[DirtWednesday]

With this

When reserves take back their lands they will prosper. Enough of this INAC babysitter crap. Can't even get Mike Holmes out to help reconstruct decent homes without Ottawa getting in the way.

[bomberjet]

Mike Holmes hahaha let's use a real contractor and start again. But yes.

Also, the Indian Act. Holy crap, 1900's much. Should maybe update the name at least.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

If we are talking about income inequality, wealth redistribution is the best way to combat it according to the Conference Board of Canada ( ref 1, ref 2) and the OECD. You do make a point about driving high contributors away but we will never improve income inequality if we don't take a stand on our values (same goes for climate change and other moral dilemmas).

You don't raise the poor up by trying to take the rich down.

If pile is larger than pile b, and you take from pile A and place it on pile B, technically the gap shrinks. If it was that simple then we would have less poverty right now.... but here we are...

As you already agreed, keep taking from pile A would ignore the fact that pile A has the means to maneuver or leave completely. Take its pile where it feels more appreciated.

A lot of people in Pile B keep yelling at Pile A to keep giving. When I harassed my parents for more money they told me to get a job. Except my parents, since I was lucky to have great ones, still loved me (and still didn't give to my pile B).

That emotional connection from Pile A to Pile B and vice versa doesn't exist, so how does forcing Pile A to continuously fork out money...
a) solve anything, if money isn't managed
b) mend anything, if Pile A is somehow always wrong, always at fault, always responsible, yet always well to do.

As far as taking a stand on values, correct, we should have ours, and stick to them. But we cannot pretend that we have the same values. I'm a generous person but absolutely not a socialist. Nor am I convinced about climate change yet, but I understand the great divide in opinion there.

However, I find it rich how we paint ourselves to be such a compassionate, generous bunch. "Taking a stand" for higher taxes on people not ourselves is not compassion, its tyrannical. "It's up to US to help others, so let's take their money, not ours."

Me going to a rich guy saying "hey you, give way more money (to a wasteful government that will misuse it), and here's my army of voters who share my opinion" is not compassion. That's me trying to force money from someone using numbers to my advantage. And of course I wouldn't be paying more... HE would. That's not compassionate, that's just ideological.

To me, generosity is directly helping people in need. Volunteering time, lending money to a struggling family, mentoring young people without guidance, and on a macro scale, not giving a generation a fish so they eat for a day, but teaching them to fish so they eat a lifetime. Ironically, it costs less to teach to fish than to buy one fish yet the reward is infinitely greater.

It sounds cynical... but if we used even HALF the effort expended towards getting money out of the rich, and used that to mobilize people who do not realize their own potential, we'd be further ahead. Education is part of that, but education these days is coddling the mind, not pushing it. There has to be tough love, because as long as one is coddled, they'll feel safe enough to avoid effort/pain/rejection and cozy up to the fire until the check runs out.

And since socialist thinking often lines up liberal ideas in terms of climate, etc.... take some of that climate money and help the poor.

Let the compassion be proven by taking from one's OWN ideological pile. Then I'll believe the left's compassion.

We need to create jobs and skills AND education. Education is for math, science, english, etc... to facilitate the capacity to produce, think, innovate, connect.

The reason to make something of oneself will not come from school alone. It comes from a goal, a light at the end of the tunnel, it comes from positive relationships (which CAN happen within school through inspiring teachers, but they are educators before they are motivational speakers). I know a few people who made something of themselves by shovelling a lot of dirt and bringing that money home to the family. We need to find a way to easily connect those in need with a means to produce. We need education, but we also need to put shovels in people's hands and show them that work is rewarded. We TALK a lot about the former, and sure as hell don't do the latter.

I must stress that none of my post is actually condemning those in a bad spot. It's my opposition to how we're going about the problem.

Originally Posted by djforsberg

That mentality needs to change. Children (well, people) only hate something if they don't see the value in it. Both parents and educators need to be doing a better job at making education attractive to children. If you are an adult and are refusing to educate yourself with the skills necessary to contribute to society and the economy, well then I have no sympathy for you (unless, of course, it is due to circumstances beyond their control, such as cost, accessibility, etc.).

I'm not disagreeing, but we have to admit that there is only so much fun that can be found in school compared to whatever other leisures children endeavor. It is unrealistic to expect a majority of children to like school. ALthough I'm not saying we cannot try.

[headhorse]

wealth is derived from resources and labour, if the few people who make the most money leave because of higher taxes the basis for their wealth can still exist... because it's resources and labour. we have more than enough capital, resources and technology for everyone to work 20-25 hour work weeks and spend the rest of their time exercising, taking care of their families and loved ones, and furthering their studies, all of which would ease financial pressures on health care and social services. people just need to stop believing the lies that the rich feed them.

[1ajs]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

Mike Holmes hahaha let's use a real contractor and start again. But yes.

Also, the Indian Act. Holy crap, 1900's much. Should maybe update the name at least.

indian act is 1860's

witch bans prarie plants

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by headhorse

wealth is derived from resources and labour, if the few people who make the most money leave because of higher taxes the basis for their wealth can still exist... because it's resources and labour. we have more than enough capital, resources and technology for everyone to work 20-25 hour work weeks and spend the rest of their time exercising, taking care of their families and loved ones, and furthering their studies, all of which would ease financial pressures on health care and social services. people just need to stop believing the lies that the rich feed them.

I agree with some parts underline.

The bolded is the most stereotypical bullshit of all time. How can you tell people "not to believe the lies" and then pander out the most generic excuse anyone could think of?

The rich don't want anyone, and certainly not the native community, to be down. A strong economy is better for the rich man and the poor man, and everyone in between. And a rich man knows how to double his efforts and triple his results in a good economy.

If the rich leave, so do these two things:

1) the investment and economic contribution
2) the talent

Here's the other reality: The rich did not wake up rich. They all started somewhere. While many are born into the middle class, you have to fight and scrap to get rich. Maybe for some they started out poor a generation or two back, but every day they get up and work like they're poor, because they've seen what it takes to not only create, but maintain and grow wealth. The assumption that some just have it and it's simply off-limits to others is quite the fallacy, and that thinking keeps people from envisioning their own potential. One cannot discount the TALENT of the rich guy.

All these "overpaid" CEO's did not set their salary... a board chose it for them. A board decided that this person's talent and leadership is worth 5M annually. This takes decades of study, work, and exceptional results, and the strong majority who can match that effort won't come close. Talent, natural or learned, is real.

Productivity does not simply fill a vacuum when talent leaves. If Ford/GM/Chrysler all shut down overnight or moved out of state, you cannot assume that any random joe car comnpany can waltz in and pick up where they left off. Detroit won't keep going without them (not that it's really going). To think that "the rich can just leave" and we'll be fine is comical. Because wherever they seem to go, those places seem to grow. Rhyming unintentional.

[Riverman]

Originally Posted by headhorse

people just need to stop believing the lies that the rich feed them.

But they do.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opi...?device=mobile

[djforsberg]

Originally Posted by Wolf13

I agree with some parts underline.

The bolded is the most stereotypical bullshit of all time. How can you tell people "not to believe the lies" and then pander out the most generic excuse anyone could think of?

The rich don't want anyone, and certainly not the native community, to be down. A strong economy is better for the rich man and the poor man, and everyone in between. And a rich man knows how to double his efforts and triple his results in a good economy.

If the rich leave, so do these two things:

1) the investment and economic contribution
2) the talent

Here's the other reality: The rich did not wake up rich. They all started somewhere. While many are born into the middle class, you have to fight and scrap to get rich. Maybe for some they started out poor a generation or two back, but every day they get up and work like they're poor, because they've seen what it takes to not only create, but maintain and grow wealth. The assumption that some just have it and it's simply off-limits to others is quite the fallacy, and that thinking keeps people from envisioning their own potential. One cannot discount the TALENT of the rich guy.

All these "overpaid" CEO's did not set their salary... a board chose it for them. A board decided that this person's talent and leadership is worth 5M annually. This takes decades of study, work, and exceptional results, and the strong majority who can match that effort won't come close. Talent, natural or learned, is real.

Productivity does not simply fill a vacuum when talent leaves. If Ford/GM/Chrysler all shut down overnight or moved out of state, you cannot assume that any random joe car comnpany can waltz in and pick up where they left off. Detroit won't keep going without them (not that it's really going). To think that "the rich can just leave" and we'll be fine is comical. Because wherever they seem to go, those places seem to grow. Rhyming unintentional.

You seem sure that asking the "rich" to pay a little more to improve economic inequality is going to cause all of them to disappear. That simple is not true. Even if it was, I'm sorry but anyone who needs to pay below-poverty wages or low and regressive taxes to stay in business do not deserve to be doing business in our country. The rich will do just fine after contributing a little more to ensure this country remains stable and equal. I'm not the only one arguing this... please refer to what the experts say in the links I provided. Respectfully, for your next argument, please quote these experts and use facts and examples instead of quoting the messenger (me) and using wild assumptions and predictions based on ideology that is lacking any substantial evidence.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

You seem sure that asking the "rich" to pay a little more to improve economic inequality is going to cause all of them to disappear. That simple is not true. Even if it was, I'm sorry but anyone who needs to pay below-poverty wages or low and regressive taxes to stay in business do not deserve to be doing business in our country. The rich will do just fine after contributing a little more to ensure this country remains stable and equal. I'm not the only one arguing this... please refer to what the experts say in the links I provided. Respectfully, for your next argument, please quote these experts and use facts and examples instead of quoting the messenger (me) and using wild assumptions and predictions based on ideology that is lacking any substantial evidence.

lol what??? How can you say that his arguments lack substantial evidence. Look no further than the offshore holdings of the mega rich in Switzerland or the cayman islands to see what happens when you put the squeeze on those who drive the economy.

You wanna help people? Raise the minimum wage and cut the corporate tax rate.

[Wolf13]

Originally Posted by djforsberg

You seem sure that asking the "rich" to pay a little more to improve economic inequality is going to cause all of them to disappear. That simple is not true. Even if it was, I'm sorry but anyone who needs to pay below-poverty wages or low and regressive taxes to stay in business do not deserve to be doing business in our country. The rich will do just fine after contributing a little more to ensure this country remains stable and equal. I'm not the only one arguing this... please refer to what the experts say in the links I provided. Respectfully, for your next argument, please quote these experts and use facts and examples instead of quoting the messenger (me) and using wild assumptions and predictions based on ideology that is lacking any substantial evidence.

I will kindly say I may get to reading all that, as it is a decent amount of information, later.

I cannot speak directly to your claim that "I'm sorry but anyone who needs to pay below-poverty wages or low and regressive taxes to stay in business do not deserve to be doing business in our country" because that too sounds like ideology, but on the other hand I place value in people as well. I do not believe in underpaying people, I believe in paying people what they deserve and providing incentive to grow one's capacity to contribute...

...but I also believe in earning your money, not expecting your money. This is a difficult factor to accurately assess these days... who is working and underpaid, who isn't working but is pretending they are, who will emerge from poverty if helped and who will stay there. I'm not judge, jury, and executioner on this subject at all, as I don't want to decide peoples' fates. However, I want to hear more about what the government can do for its people rather than what it needs from its people.

There are of course, experts who may not agree. I might do some digging.

My personal experience that I'm speaking from is literally talking to those who left, personally knowing those who left, and knowing those who couldn't be convinced to come here. Talking to landlords and developers who cannot attract headquartered national tenants in Winnipeg, so for me it's from the horse's mouth.

Maybe addressing inequality could spur economic activity, but in Winnipeg we have built up a wall to some of these ideas because we've seen money thrown at problems for decades, and haven't gotten far. We've seen our attempts at socialism fall flat on their face much like the NDP after 16 years of power. Additionally, we have a native population struggling with poverty, and many of these problems stem from historical trauma. That's a deeper issue than merely diverting money, which Manitoba has already done.

You can take that with a grain of salt if you wish but these are not wild assumptions, these are professional casualties to a welfare mindset, their tales as told to myself, and likely to others on this board.

The other consideration is as follows: If corporation A is deciding between Winnipeg and Vancouver, and all economic motivators being equal, they will choose Vancouver, because it's Vancouver and not Winnipeg. We need to offer MORE advantages and not less to be competitive.

I'll get around to reading those links and deciphering their findings, and might find some of my own as well in the future.