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  #61  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 3:29 PM
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phil235 phil235 is offline
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
Hybrid seems to be the way to go. Some in person working days is important to connect with colleagues, form personal relationships and for company culture, but forcing people to return 100% can be problematic for morale and may no longer make financial sense.
Agreed. I think everyone is for more flexibility and the the ability to do some work from home. 100% is unlikely for lots of jobs. That said, I think the magic number for most organizations will end up being something north of 50% - maybe 3 days a week to make sure employees actually overlap in the office and you don't end up with a bunch of sub-groups that never see each other.

Those government departments that are still not getting employees back into the office regularly are basically saying a) we don't have a workplace culture that is worth protecting and b) we are afraid to actually manage our employees. Neither are great looks.

But to Mille Sabords' point, I actually think that every employer in the city has a responsibility to contribute to a vital urban core.
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  #62  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 3:39 PM
Marshsparrow Marshsparrow is offline
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Agreed. I think everyone is for more flexibility and the the ability to do some work from home. 100% is unlikely for lots of jobs. That said, I think the magic number for most organizations will end up being something north of 50% - maybe 3 days a week to make sure employees actually overlap in the office and you don't end up with a bunch of sub-groups that never see each other.

Those government departments that are still not getting employees back into the office regularly are basically saying a) we don't have a workplace culture that is worth protecting and b) we are afraid to actually manage our employees. Neither are great looks.

But to Mille Sabords' point, I actually think that every employer in the city has a responsibility to contribute to a vital urban core.
The pandemic actually showed that these jobs could be done ANYWHERE across Canada - do we have a Cdn government that serves the country or just downtown Ottawa?

The reasons to get fed gov employees into offices is for collaboration and socializing - but there is no $$$ for these activities.

Kanata employers are not responsible for making downtown Ottawa vibrant.
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  #63  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by phil235 View Post
Agreed. I think everyone is for more flexibility and the the ability to do some work from home. 100% is unlikely for lots of jobs. That said, I think the magic number for most organizations will end up being something north of 50% - maybe 3 days a week to make sure employees actually overlap in the office and you don't end up with a bunch of sub-groups that never see each other.

Those government departments that are still not getting employees back into the office regularly are basically saying a) we don't have a workplace culture that is worth protecting and b) we are afraid to actually manage our employees. Neither are great looks.

But to Mille Sabords' point, I actually think that every employer in the city has a responsibility to contribute to a vital urban core.
Get your flack jacket for that last sentence. I made that exact argument some time ago and people were none too happy.

Hybrid always existed for those who wanted it. Now it’s not hybrid enough for them. And considering TBS has evaded mandating anything specific, ditto for senior management across departments, we’re ending up with tonnes of groups going into the office once every couple of weeks or month and calling it “hybrid”.
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  #64  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 3:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Marshsparrow View Post
The pandemic actually showed that these jobs could be done ANYWHERE across Canada - do we have a Cdn government that serves the country or just downtown Ottawa?

The reasons to get fed gov employees into offices is for collaboration and socializing - but there is no $$$ for these activities.

Kanata employers are not responsible for making downtown Ottawa vibrant.
Disagree on Kanata employers having no responsibility to downtown Ottawa. I see that as a responsibility of all residents of the city, including corporate residents, as we all have an interest (even if you just look at economic interests - do you really think Kanata itself has any particular appeal to new recruits that puts it ahead of Waterloo or Markham or any other suburb? ). Same principle applies to Canadians having a responsibility to the capital of the country.

I'm also not sure of the basis for your other statements. The fallout of the pandemic is still being studied, so it's pretty tough to be definitive as to whether all jobs worked as well remotely. Common sense alone would suggest that can't be true.

I think the fact that established organizations could carry on for a limited period of time fully remotely is different from making that a permanent state of affairs. To me it's pretty obvious that in person work has many benefits beyond socializing. If you have tried to onboard a new employee in this environment it would become very apparent. Same thing with retention of trained employees - if work from home is so good for morale, then we wouldn't be seeing so many people leaving their jobs.
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  #65  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 4:03 PM
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Get your flack jacket for that last sentence. I made that exact argument some time ago and people were none too happy.
Thanks for the warning. Full admit that there is a generational gap at play here - I get the sense that there are some younger workers that would be happier to essentially never interact in person with anyone at work if they can avoid it. Not sure that means it is a good idea for employers. (I've also seen surveys indicating that young people entering the workforce are very dissatisfied with online onboarding and integration into the organization.) And regardless, you can't forget that there is a large cohort of mid career and late career people in the workforce for whom fully remote isn't working very well, and they are the ones transferring the knowledge.

As an aside, I think that there is a larger societal issue at play here. Workplaces were one place that people had to get out of their online echo chambers and actually interact in person with people who have different backgrounds and views. Remote work reduces those interactions. I can see that leading to more extreme and intransigent views as time goes on. But I'm no sociologist.
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  #66  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 4:58 PM
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In terms of donors, probably. Even support to a degree. But yesterday I saw something quite surprising, which was an endorsement of Sutcliffe by well known and respected Liberal Yasir Naqvi. Maybe it’s a one-off…but if he pulls even modest support from that “sphere” it bodes very well for him.
I'd be curious I think some of that is a more politically active central core and Sutcliffe's heatmap might be similar.

The Liberal party is for sure split in general so no surprise here. I'm surprised at Naqvi thought he was towards the left edge of the party though maaybe just the riding he's in.
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  #67  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 5:35 PM
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I’m pulling back this thread because there seems to be a lot of discussion about the future of Ottawa’s downtown and it is taking over the 2022 Ottawa Municipal Election thread. I thought that this might be a more appropriate place for all those comments.

Ottawa’s core has developed over the last 190+ years. In general, it began as the place where the military set up its barracks, with ‘preferred’ housing close by. The main retail (market) was located in the ‘lower town’ area until more up-scale retailers started taking space around Barracks Hill. Retail and services provided the bulk of the jobs for the general population.

Because almost all of the work and amenities were located in the city’s core, living on its fringe was the preferred area for many. Living further out meant that commuting to work was a necessity. However, as the city grew, two things happened: The land nearer the core got even more expensive; and better methods of commuting were developed. For example, the electric streetcars enabled people to more easily travel from newly developed ‘sub-urban’ areas into their jobs in the core.

Gradually, people moved their homes further out from the tight core of the city. This gave them cheaper accommodations. Less expensive housing allowed them to either get more house and land (if they were fortunate enough to earn a decent wage), or to at least to keep a roof over their head (if they were not earning much money or were trying to save up). However, the ‘up-town’ / ‘down-town’ area was still the primary area for jobs and retail.

Why have I described something that, probably, everyone on this forum already knows? Because it seems that some are not taking the history of Ottawa’s development into account when they declare what they think should be done – and it should be done immediately.

As the core developed and grew, the city’s population also grew, but was still quite small. Public amenities were not as ‘necessary’ as they are today. (For example, folks could simply walk down to the river to go swimming on a hot day – so there was no real need to use scarce public funds for a public ‘swimming pool’.)

FAST-FORWARD to 1990: There are still a tremendous number of jobs clustered in the city’s core, but many are to support the government. The bulk of the buildings there are office towers, which clear out after the work-day ends – leaving a sparce population downtown in the evenings. Most of the retail and services has followed the movement of people out into the suburbs. Commuting is still, relatively, easy since buses travel directly from the suburbs to the core.

Because the office area of the downtown has grown from a few blocks to cover many blocks, the ‘dead’ area in the evening has also grown. Without activities in the area, there is no real incentive for people to travel to the downtown except for their daily office job. There was no reason at all to spend much public money to develop public facilities in the area. Some of the small parks that supported the few people who lived on the fringe of the original core might have been maintained, or they might have been developed for new office space.

In short (I know, too late for that!); Ottawa’s downtown has developed over many, many years as a place where people go to work for the day but then return to their home in the suburbs. Most retail and services remaining in the downtown have evolved to support that function. It is in the suburbs, near their homes, that people access the needed retail, services, and recreational facilities for everything else.

FAST-FORWARD to 2019: There has been a push to develop residential towers in and near the core of the city. There has also been a movement to ‘decentralize’ the offices, with government departments being moves out of the core, and into some suburbs. The goal of these changes is to make neighbourhoods more ‘complete’, allowing people to stay closer to their homes for all of their needs, including going to work.

Unfortunately, the downtown evolved over many years to be the ‘work hub’, and to change it into being just a densely-populated ‘suburb-like’ area over such a short time is difficult, to say the least. Public amenities that are enjoyed out in the suburbs, like parkland and public pools, have had to be provided by the builders of the residential towers – but those are private features, like in-building pools, exercise rooms, and roof-top terraces. Not that private facilities can’t be even nicer that public ones, but they are a cost that must be borne by only the residents of the specific building, and not the population of the city. This reinforces the cost difference between living in the downtown ‘suburb’ compared to living out in a true suburb.

As well, it is difficult to quickly pivot the retail and service landscape form what has developed, support for daily commuter activities, to what is needed for a ‘complete’ neighbourhood. When a ‘big-box’ store can buy cheap land in a suburb and begin turning a profit after two years, why would it want to spend considerably more to build a store for a downtown population? Those living downtown almost all have cars and have been willing to drive out to the suburbs to do their shopping. Most ‘downtowners’ do not seem to be willing to spend considerably more to buy their food in a downtown store. Thus, any downtown stores must be in areas of maximum density of less-mobile populations – like along Rideau Street, which has many residential towers housing university students.

Just as the Crisis of Climate Change is not that the climate is changing (it is the rate of that change), the ‘crisis’ of the core dying due to Work Form Home (WFH) is due to the rate of the change. If, all of a sudden, the majority of the commuters is removed from downtown, the economic environment that has developed over many years could fail. Just as with the climate, where there are calls to slow the climate change so that ‘normal’ environmental changes can keep up, there are calls to slow the removal of commuters. That call back from WFH does not need to be a permanent thing for all workers. There has already been a concerted effort to get more residential spaces in the core, and that will continue. As that happens, the economic environment downtown will become less dependent on commuters.

We can’t expect to suddenly change an environment that has developed over 190+ years. If we want to make drastic changes – without creating a ‘crisis’ - then those changes must be done over a longer period of time.
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  #68  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 6:00 PM
originalmuffins originalmuffins is offline
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My point was that condos don't solve all of downtown's problems and zoom meetings are not the ideal solution in all cases.

Both are beneficial, but as I said, Zoom does not really create community.

In a previous post, I mentioned that I did WFH and I saw its benefits, but I saw the benefits also of collaborating with coworkers and volunteers in person as well.

So, please don't pigeon hole me.
Which is what you tried doing with my stance, because I mentioned we need more than just condos. I mentioned hybrid for the sectors that actually need it or hybrid offices for those that do want to go in. There needs to be amenities, and reasons for the average person who doesn't work there to go there (shopping, things to do, and so on). Increasing the density is a good start. We don't need to strawman then react negatively when it's returned. WFH is the present and the future, and reality is: it's widespread worldwide, so let's not try to live in the past and we need to hope for plans to modernize the city for things that actually solve the problem instead of "we need to go back to our old ways".
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  #69  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 6:04 PM
originalmuffins originalmuffins is offline
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Originally Posted by Marshsparrow View Post
The pandemic actually showed that these jobs could be done ANYWHERE across Canada - do we have a Cdn government that serves the country or just downtown Ottawa?

The reasons to get fed gov employees into offices is for collaboration and socializing - but there is no $$$ for these activities.

Kanata employers are not responsible for making downtown Ottawa vibrant.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But these are the same people who complain about wasted tax dollars. I'd much rather have the same amount of employees working remotely and save the CDN government more money on real estate expenses for things that would be more beneficial aka YOW fund aka downtown loop to gatineau aka creating destinations within DT Ottawa.
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  #70  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 6:32 PM
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As well, it is difficult to quickly pivot the retail and service landscape form what has developed, support for daily commuter activities, to what is needed for a ‘complete’ neighbourhood. When a ‘big-box’ store can buy cheap land in a suburb and begin turning a profit after two years, why would it want to spend considerably more to build a store for a downtown population? Those living downtown almost all have cars and have been willing to drive out to the suburbs to do their shopping. Most ‘downtowners’ do not seem to be willing to spend considerably more to buy their food in a downtown store. Thus, any downtown stores must be in areas of maximum density of less-mobile populations – like along Rideau Street, which has many residential towers housing university students.
I was with you until this paragraph. It's not true that those living downtown almost all have cars. According to this data (https://www.ottawainsights.ca/themes...ransportation/), even in 2011 there were 42% of households who didn't have cars. The idea that people downtown are willing and able to drive to the suburbs isn't accurate. The fact that even city services have moved to the suburbs, forcing people to drive out of the city for basic needs, is a massive policy failure.

Likewise in the case of big box stores. If we actually taxed them on the land they use for massive one-storey buildings and huge parking lots, along with the true cost of the stroads that they are on, smaller urban stores could be very competitive on price. We have made policy choices that have lead to the current state of affairs.

It's not that there isn't a significant population downtown, or that amenities like the NAC or the Convention Centre or the Market aren't big draws, it's that there is a bigger population in the suburbs and that population dominates city policy. I'd love for a borough system to be implemented, with equal capital spending on amenities like parks and pools and arenas, and see what that would do for our urban core.

Last edited by phil235; Oct 11, 2022 at 6:43 PM.
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  #71  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 6:41 PM
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But these are the same people who complain about wasted tax dollars. I'd much rather have the same amount of employees working remotely and save the CDN government more money on real estate expenses for things that would be more beneficial aka YOW fund aka downtown loop to gatineau aka creating destinations within DT Ottawa.
Speaking of strawmen, when exactly did I complain about wasted tax dollars?

I actually don't think that you are saving anything with a fully remote workforce, nor is there any evidence that I have seen showing that it is more effective when done wholesale. What you might save on real estate, you are losing in terms of hiring and retention and general ineffectiveness of a less cohesive workforce. Corporate culture is really important to how an organization functions.
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  #72  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 6:44 PM
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Originally Posted by phil235
I was with you until this paragraph. It's not true that those living downtown almost all have cars. According to this data (https://www.ottawainsights.ca/themes...ransportation/), even in 2011 there were 42% of households who didn't have cars. The idea that people downtown are willing and able to drive to the suburbs isn't accurate. The fact that even city services have moved to the suburbs, forcing people to drive out of the city for basic needs, is a massive policy failure.
Indeed. People living in Centretown/Downtown/Sandy Hill will stay in those areas as much as possible if they can and avoid having to make trips to places like Billings or Trainyards if they can avoid it, to say nothing of further-afar places like Orleans, Kanata, or even Nepean.
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  #73  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 7:19 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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Just as the Crisis of Climate Change is not that the climate is changing (it is the rate of that change), the ‘crisis’ of the core dying due to Work Form Home (WFH) is due to the rate of the change. If, all of a sudden, the majority of the commuters is removed from downtown, the economic environment that has developed over many years could fail. Just as with the climate, where there are calls to slow the climate change so that ‘normal’ environmental changes can keep up, there are calls to slow the removal of commuters. That call back from WFH does not need to be a permanent thing for all workers. There has already been a concerted effort to get more residential spaces in the core, and that will continue. As that happens, the economic environment downtown will become less dependent on commuters.
This is a very insightful comment. And a good analogy. I am happy to see the climate warming it's in aggregate good for Canada but the rate of change could be devastating and I think I and others underestimate this risk and factor.

Conversely many are happy to see employment leave the core and employment take place in the suburban paradises the vast majority of Canadians desire and see this as clearly positive in the aggregate. Like many of you who might disagree with my aggregate climate estimate I might disagree with this sentiment but even if I am wrong the pace it is happening now is clearly dangerous. I understand that US WFH rates are high because of large corporate polices and blue state policies. In the rest of the world they have moved on from Covid almost completely. I would argue actually Canada and the above mentioned US factors are in many ways a reaction to the unprecedent presence of Covid isn't real factors in North America. All that to say. This last winter wave where I believe we don't implement any restrictions where even public servants will continue their 50-50 ish work habits may be the last gasp and we will look more rationally at what works and what doesn't.

Traffic patterns are interesting. I have been commuting from my home to Gatineau the past few weeks and looking at the morning traffic I believe it is worse than 2019 ever was. Are these 2-3 day a week Public Servants now driving wheras before they used Transit. Did they move further away or am I just wrong?
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  #74  
Old Posted Oct 11, 2022, 9:10 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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“Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics” Yes, statistics can be produced to prove anything that you want.

On the ‘42% of households in the Central and Inner Area don’t own a personal vehicle’ stat that you used; that area is made up, in a big part, by the two biggest universities that are in Ottawa. And, pulling more numbers from that Website, 48% of households earning under $30,000 per year have no vehicle. Most university students would, likely, fall into this ‘low-earner’ category. Ergo, I would certainly expect students to tilt the statistics. That is why I said that grocery stores exist along Rideau Street – because there is a high density of (more or less) captive customers.

Now for the other side of the stat: if 42% of households within the area do not own a vehicle, then 58% DO own at least one vehicle. However, I was talking about the downtown area, of course, not the area that you brought forth the statistic for. Your area extends down to Heron Road, between Prince of Wales and the Rideau River, so, again, the number is skewed in favour of non-ownership because of the student population of Carleton U. being included. I suspect that if students from the two universities were removed, the statistic would look very different.

That said, perhaps I over-stated things when I said that “almost all” living downtown have a car. I’m willing to modify my statement, with input from your ‘correction’, to ‘MOST households in downtown have access to at least one vehicle’.

As for people in Centretown/Downtown/Sandy Hill preferring to stay in their neighbourhood, I would agree with that. Most people, even suburbanites, would, likely, prefer to stay in their neighbourhood also – if they could get everything they wanted from within the area. That is not surprising. HOWEVER, it is obvious that people living in the core currently DO leave their neighbourhood for the necessities of life. For example, there is no Costco downtown for those Re residents to go to – they must drive to a suburban location to get their 48-pk of toilet paper.

If it were economically advantageous for a ‘big box’ store to open downtown, it would have happened. As long as people from that area are willing to travel to an area outside of their neighbourhood, corporations will take advantage of that and built the biggest, cheapest, ‘box’ that they can and simply have their customers travel to it.
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  #75  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2022, 1:01 AM
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Why have so many types of retail left the downtown area? I can remember multiple hardware and furniture stores downtown, and of course, multiple movie theatres. There was even a Canadian Tire right downtown until fairly recently.

The departures have in part been because they cannot compete with suburban superstores or megaplex theatres, and because of increasing urban rent, and high property values have made repurposing the locations into offices and more recently condos more advantageous.

It may be possible to get an urban Walmart or Ikea, but this requires enormous population densities likely not achievable in a mid-sized city like Ottawa. I wouldn't count on this possibility.

The farmer's market portion of the Byward Market has failed big time during the pandemic. This is part of long-term trend over decades. My family had a stall at the market at one time. Grocery retail distribution to make supermarkets and more recently superstores as profitable as possible have gradually locked out local farmers, so most have quit over time. There is almost no market gardeners around the fringe of the city anymore. The city not so long ago was surrounded by orchards, vegetable growers and greenhouses bringing the freshest produce to the market. No more. People have been trained well to consider price over quality. Tasteless tomatoes or apples are better. But the pandemic was the last nail in the coffin. No more workers to pick up produce at lunch or on the way home. So, how could there possibly be a successful business plan as a result for those who must make their income over a fairly short season.

I spoke to one of the few remaining growers who gave up their stall when the market became a no-go zone and a ghost town during the pandemic. He told me that while it became impossible to conduct business in the Byward Market, sales were booming at his suburban location. Will he go back? I doubt it.

How do we revitalize downtown? That is a complex issue. There have been long-term trends working against downtown, which will be difficult to reverse. The WFH issue has made a further dramatic shift of business to the suburbs.

It is going to be difficult to reverse this and there will be a lot business leaving downtown. We need to find ways to make downtown a place to go. Of course, more people need to live there, but that is not enough. There have to be more reasons to go downtown, new reasons. We need to make it easier to get downtown as well. While we continue to close streets downtown to traffic, our alternative, the Confederation Line has been a dramatic failure so far. Nevertheless, it can never be enough, one route to downtown is not enough. That is not how great European cities work, even those the size of Ottawa.
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  #76  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2022, 1:29 AM
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“Lies, Damned Lies, and Statistics” Yes, statistics can be produced to prove anything that you want.

On the ‘42% of households in the Central and Inner Area don’t own a personal vehicle’ stat that you used; that area is made up, in a big part, by the two biggest universities that are in Ottawa. And, pulling more numbers from that Website, 48% of households earning under $30,000 per year have no vehicle. Most university students would, likely, fall into this ‘low-earner’ category. Ergo, I would certainly expect students to tilt the statistics. That is why I said that grocery stores exist along Rideau Street – because there is a high density of (more or less) captive customers.

Now for the other side of the stat: if 42% of households within the area do not own a vehicle, then 58% DO own at least one vehicle. However, I was talking about the downtown area, of course, not the area that you brought forth the statistic for. Your area extends down to Heron Road, between Prince of Wales and the Rideau River, so, again, the number is skewed in favour of non-ownership because of the student population of Carleton U. being included. I suspect that if students from the two universities were removed, the statistic would look very different.

That said, perhaps I over-stated things when I said that “almost all” living downtown have a car. I’m willing to modify my statement, with input from your ‘correction’, to ‘MOST households in downtown have access to at least one vehicle’.

As for people in Centretown/Downtown/Sandy Hill preferring to stay in their neighbourhood, I would agree with that. Most people, even suburbanites, would, likely, prefer to stay in their neighbourhood also – if they could get everything they wanted from within the area. That is not surprising. HOWEVER, it is obvious that people living in the core currently DO leave their neighbourhood for the necessities of life. For example, there is no Costco downtown for those Re residents to go to – they must drive to a suburban location to get their 48-pk of toilet paper.

If it were economically advantageous for a ‘big box’ store to open downtown, it would have happened. As long as people from that area are willing to travel to an area outside of their neighbourhood, corporations will take advantage of that and built the biggest, cheapest, ‘box’ that they can and simply have their customers travel to it.
I'm not sure that university students actually count as "households" in the census data, but I can't find anything definitive. In any event, I'm not sure why university students without cars wouldn't count as people who need to access services nearby.

As someone who lives in a core neighbourhood and doesn't go to Costco (because Costco and smaller homes don't really mix), I can assure you that lots of people do not leave the neighbourhood regularly to head to the suburbs for groceries etc., either because they can't or won't on principle (me). My non-scientific estimate would be that a large majority shop locally.

You are absolutely right that it isn't economically viable to build a big box store downtown, but land value is only part of the reason for that. Not insignificant is a tax system that encourages land-intensive development in far-flung locations, and partly due to the fact that we spend an exorbitant amount of public money building and maintaining the massive road infrastructure that is required for those stores. Change the policies that create those factors and I think that the equation changes enough to make downtown stores competitive.

In no world are we a better city because urban residents have to drive (or gulp, take transit) to the suburbs for basic needs. We should be doing everything we can to stop that from happening. The idea that everyone prefers to shop in a big box store and give up a bunch of their time to save $5.00 doesn't make sense to me. Though admittedly I am basically terrified of Costco.
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  #77  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2022, 1:35 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

But these are the same people who complain about wasted tax dollars. I'd much rather have the same amount of employees working remotely and save the CDN government more money on real estate expenses for things that would be more beneficial aka YOW fund aka downtown loop to gatineau aka creating destinations within DT Ottawa.
With a ghost-town downtown, there is no value in building a downtown LRT loop.

As it stands, the Confederation Line has become a dead weight on city finances and the transit system. It is mostly a fixed cost when travel patterns have substantially changed.

Maybe the feds save money on office space, but what about the city?

I don't know where the money comes from for the destinations that you refer to.

In any event, re-purposing downtown office buildings, or building new destinations will take years.
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  #78  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2022, 1:50 AM
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We have all seen the outcome from students having classes at home. It works for some, it has been a disaster for others. The political pressure to re-open schools, colleges and universities for in-person classes has been incredible. And what happened? They re-opened. I have directly spoken to students whose experiences with classes at home was terrible. Some quit university as a result. Hopefully, they return and this does not damage their life-long future.

But I guess students are a different species from adults in the workforce.

Now, before everybody gets on my back again. I said that I see value in Zoom conferences and WFH to some extent, but I go back to my original comment some months ago, that I found it shocking that 48% of PS workers were still 'exclusively' working from home. Hopefully, that has since changed.
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  #79  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2022, 2:04 AM
YOWetal YOWetal is online now
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,751
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
We have all seen the outcome from students having classes at home. It works for some, it has been a disaster for others. The political pressure to re-open schools, colleges and universities for in-person classes has been incredible. And what happened? They re-opened. I have directly spoken to students whose experiences with classes at home was terrible. Some quit university as a result. Hopefully, they return and this does not damage their life-long future.

But I guess students are a different species from adults in the workforce.

Now, before everybody gets on my back again. I said that I see value in Zoom conferences and WFH to some extent, but I go back to my original comment some months ago, that I found it shocking that 48% of PS workers were still 'exclusively' working from home. Hopefully, that has since changed.
I agree WFH is horrible except for a few maybe some solitary activities and/or work done by mostly introverted people and/or who are highly motivated.

All that said University is about the experience for many whereas work is still about the output at least for the employer. I don't care if my passport worker or CRA employee have water cooler breaks I just want them to get results.
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  #80  
Old Posted Oct 12, 2022, 2:32 AM
originalmuffins originalmuffins is offline
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Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Ottawa
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Lol what a ridiculous and useless consistent regurgitation of the same things. Same people constantly griping about WFH and the modern workplace daily.

Daily.

Regardless of information or viewpoints presented, the same conversations take place. It comes up on multiple threads with the same garbage rhetoric with zero back up and the dumb perception of just federal workers demanding this (FYI, it's private sector as well). It's getting supremely annoying to hear so I'm going to be taking a break. Have fun.

I'm sure the dream of Ottawa continuing to stay in the past will stay as long as everyone wants.
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