Glendale/West Valley Development Thread

[Vicelord John]

I was talking to myself when I yelled READ!

[HX_Guy]

I would love for a casino to go in around the stadium...it would be so much closer then the other casinos!

The argument that it's too close to residential is crap...isn't the casino on 101 and Indian Bend close to residential as well?

[kaneui]

If this casino/resort gets built, it would certainly add more weight to the argument of running LRT around that whole area. Added to the new spring training facilities and other major development proposals nearby, the area could be both a major employment center as well as a sports and entertainment district. However, the tribe admits it has yet to find financing for the project, and judging from Las Vegas's problems, it may not be easy to secure anytime soon.

Here are a few project renders from the Tucson Citizen:


Outdoor rendering of the planned Tohono O'odham casino-resort hotel near Glendale



Rendering of hotel atrium for Tohono O'odham casino-resort hotel proposed near Glendale
(renders: Hnedak Bobo Group)

[Vicelord John]

Another observation I can make being so ingrained into the industry, is people in general do not want to stay in Glendale. If it isn't in Scottsdale, or near Scottsdale, people don't want it.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by Vicelord John

Another observation I can make being so ingrained into the industry, is people in general do not want to stay in Glendale. If it isn't in Scottsdale, or near Scottsdale, people don't want it.

Thats right now though because there's nothing in Glendale, it could change. Also, I think you may have a slanted view since you work in the high end sector of the hotel industry. Folks who are traveling in from San Diego to see a Chargers game at UofP for instance would probably love to stay close to the stadium and near a casino. Imagine how convenient it would be for them to have everything they could wan't/need within a mile and a half radius, and all accessible by LRT, it would be nice.

Heck a big complaint w/ the Valley hosting the Superbowl was how spread out things were, this would help that too. It would mean more activities and hotel space near the stadium.

[Vicelord John]

yeah, I suppose those people would like to stay there, but those are not the type of people that are spending big money.

I was in a bill today and saw a nightly room rate for $3,300 so yeah, I'm a bit slanted in my view, but when you look at the types of people the area is trying to harness in, it is that group.

It is proven so far (admittedly things may change) that westside resorts and high end hotels are likely to struggle. Wigwam is seeing record low occupancy and is scared like crazy. Renaissance is still having a hard time. They barely sold out for Super Bowl, and the Cibola Vistar Resort in Peoria... I don't know what they are doing, but they are in some deep shit. It just seems like another big resort on that side of town would only exacerbate the situation for the more established properties. There isn't much to do over there either. An overwhelming majority of the high end golf courses, shopping districts, scenery, and other amenities are in the east part of town. If someone is planning a vacation, they want to be close to that, and won't even entertain a place 40+ minutes away.

Not to mention travel agents, concierge, and other industry people give out a bad stigma about it, which further drives the idea that you don't want to stay there.

3 or 4 years from now when the economy picks back up, they will probably get some business, but like you said, it will be from locals/california people, or people with a specific reason to be on the westside... not tourists. Perhaps someone for spring training on the westside, or football, or family reasons. Maybe developers looking at the Arrowhead area for a new power center, etc. It will be a few decades, if ever, before west Phoenix ever becomes a tourist destination, despite what they say or build, simply because of the stigma.

[CANUC]

I’m calling BS on that! I don’t get this fear people seem to have of the west valley morphing beyond what their own personal stigmas of what the west valley should be. Remember when the Cardinals stadium was picked up by Glendale? Remember the chorus of nay sayers proclaiming what a huge mistake it was and that no one would drive out to the games because most of the fans were in the east valley? Um, yeah right. Remember when Westgate was announced and many were so sure it wouldn’t succeed? Now Glendale might very well be in a position to add something that very few other cities have been able to do and that’s place a major casino within its border and very close to a major entertainment district. The reality is that most of the major resort casinos are in fact in the east valley and one might as well be considered to be in Scottsdale. I bet money that if this thing has legs the major opposition isn’t going to come from local residents but interest groups with connections to east valley douche bags, “injuns” included.

[glynnjamin]

^Um, it was a mistake to build the damn stadium out there. It was a huge mistake. Not for Glendale, but for the Cards, the state of AZ, and the cities of Phoenix, Tempe, Gilbert, Mesa, etc. It was a huge freakin mistake!

And really, before this year, it's not like they were selling out the games left and right. Shit, they barely sold out the first post season game. I live downtown and I refuse to go over there for hockey. I will just watch the Road Runners.

Westgate is a freakin failure if you ask me. I've never seen a more BORING place to be. On top of that, people are getting shot in the parking lot. The restaurants are limited and none of them are upscale and none of them are cheap either. It's like going to the airport but with a movie theater attached. The shops sucks, the bars are okay, the restaurants suck, the glendale arena is soon to be vacant, the football stadium is too far away and divided from Westgate by a street with no crosswalks, and there is nothing else around for miles (with the exception of the new Camelback Ranch).

They could and should have build all of that junk in place of the fairgrounds.

[CANUC]

^Um, it was a mistake to build the damn stadium out there. It was a huge mistake. Not for Glendale, but for the Cards, the state of AZ, and the cities of Phoenix, Tempe, Gilbert, Mesa, etc. It was a huge freakin mistake!

And really, before this year, it's not like they were selling out the games left and right. Shit, they barely sold out the first post season game. I live downtown and I refuse to go over there for hockey. I will just watch the Road Runners.

Well squeal as much as you like but the fact is that they did sell out their games, they did sell out there post season game. People do drive out there to tailgate and watch the Cardinals and the fact still remains that they now have higher attendance than they had at ASU so again the naysayers were proven wrong.

Westgate is a freakin failure if you ask me. I've never seen a more BORING place to be. On top of that, people are getting shot in the parking lot.

I wasn’t asking you if you “thought” it was a failure I was stating that in fact it is not a failure. I’ve been to several of the bars on the weekends the place is far from empty or boring shocking as it may be and yes idiots exist everywhere even in Scottsdale parking lots, um any ASU football players come to mind?

The restaurants are limited and none of them are upscale and none of them are cheap either. It's like going to the airport but with a movie theater attached. The shops sucks, the bars are okay, the restaurants suck, the glendale arena is soon to be vacant, the football stadium is too far away and divided from Westgate by a street with no crosswalks, and there is nothing else around for miles (with the exception of the new Camelback Ranch).

They could and should have build all of that junk in place of the fairgrounds.

My point exactly, I remember the tag line several companies were using years ago, what was it? Oh yes, ‘critical mass’, what the area needs and could get with the addition of a resort casino. You could take a shat on it for what is currently is or could have or were it should have been built, yadda, yadda, yadda. The fact remains it is there it is growing and wining about the woulda’ coulda’ shoulda’ is a moot point.

[glynnjamin]

^So being 22nd in average attendance and 20th in overall attendance is a success? Just because it is better than ASU? That's stupid. You cannot compare it to Sun Devil Stadium because, the fact remains, more people would go to a new stadium no matter what product was on the field. But as soon as the newness wears off, the team goes back to being a .500 team (which they really were this year anyways), the place will fall even farther on the list.

I also like how you forgot to mention the bankrupt Coyotes playing in an arena that already lost one of their pro franchises. So for 8 weeks of the year, there are people at Westgate. Every other night, especially during the week, the place is a ghost town and is bleeding money. Compare it to Tempe Marketplace which is busy year round, week days and week nights, doing it all without a stadium or concert draw.

Finally, don't call out the naysayers and then, when they show you that they were right, say "it's already built - stop whining". Either engage the argument or don't bring it up.

[Vicelord John]

While I don't like the westside either, and I don't think it is going to turn fancy in my lifetime, I've noticed glynnjamin uses his personal opinion to evaluate the functionality of things.

[CANUC]

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

^So being 22nd in average attendance and 20th in overall attendance is a success? Just because it is better than ASU? That's stupid. You cannot compare it to Sun Devil Stadium because, the fact remains, more people would go to a new stadium no matter what product was on the field. But as soon as the newness wears off, the team goes back to being a .500 team (which they really were this year anyways), the place will fall even farther on the list.

I also like how you forgot to mention the bankrupt Coyotes playing in an arena that already lost one of their pro franchises. So for 8 weeks of the year, there are people at Westgate. Every other night, especially during the week, the place is a ghost town and is bleeding money. Compare it to Tempe Marketplace which is busy year round, week days and week nights, doing it all without a stadium or concert draw.

Finally, don't call out the naysayers and then, when they show you that they were right, say "it's already built - stop whining". Either engage the argument or don't bring it up.

I did call out the naysayer’s and they are still wrong and so are you. First, the Cardinals were a .500 team last season, this season they ended there record 9 and 7. Let me repeat that 9 and 7 not 8 and 8, that was the Eagles. Anyways if that’s the way your going to skew facts then there’s no point in discussing it with you since facts don’t seem to matter to you.

Your arguments are contradictory. How do you know the place is boring and a ghost town if you claim to “refuse to go out there”? How do you know its bleeding money? Are you privy to the financials of every restaurant, bar and club located there? Your comments simply ring hollow. You want to talk about the Coyotes Ok, they are part of one of the most unimpressive professional sports in this country. NHL hockey is one level above professional soccer or excuse me ‘futbol’ in terms of popularity in this country. Am I surprised the Coyotes with their miserable record are going belly up, no. I’m surprised they ever located here in the first place. Sorry, hockey is for Canadian’s and other people that only get to go outside for three months a year.

You say Tempe Market Place, well I couldn’t compare since I don’t go there and wouldn’t claim to know the popularity or claim to know the foot traffic of a place I don’t visit. What I do know is that much like Westgate its nothing more than a gussied up strip mall. Which takes me back to my original stance, if Glendale lands a resort casino just a mile north of Westgate it will be a huge shot for the area both in terms of tourist and locally generated revenue.

[PHX NATIVE 929]

The Cardinals have sold out all 32 home games they've played in 3 years at UofP Stadium (preseason and playoffs games included).

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929

The Cardinals have sold out all 32 home games they've played in 3 years at UofP Stadium (preseason and playoffs games included).

Yea I was wondering how can they be 20th in attendance if they have sold every game available for the last 3 years? Unless they compare number of people...and if there are a bunch more stadiums with higher number of seats, then there is not much that can be done to rank higher.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Yea I was wondering how can they be 20th in attendance if they have sold every game available for the last 3 years? Unless they compare number of people...and if there are a bunch more stadiums with higher number of seats, then there is not much that can be done to rank higher.

Ding ding ding, you figured it out. UofP holds like 63K, which is middle/lowish for NFL stadiums, but can be expanded to around 73K for big events like playoffs, Fiesta Bowl, and Super Bowls.

Since moving to UofP attendance has been a non issue for the Cards.

[glynnjamin]

Originally Posted by CANUC

I did call out the naysayer’s and they are still wrong and so are you. First, the Cardinals were a .500 team last season, this season they ended there record 9 and 7. Let me repeat that 9 and 7 not 8 and 8, that was the Eagles. Anyways if that’s the way your going to skew facts then there’s no point in discussing it with you since facts don’t seem to matter to you.

Talk about a cut and paste job. I acknowledged that they were above .500 by stating "go back to being a .500 team" and then a qualified that 9-7 is pretty much .500 anyways because it is only a one win difference. It sounds great to say 9-7 but that is one lucky game difference...so ya, they really were a .500 team.

Your arguments are contradictory. How do you know the place is boring and a ghost town if you claim to “refuse to go out there”?

I said I refuse to go there for hockey games...not "in general".

How do you know its bleeding money? Are you privy to the financials of every restaurant, bar and club located there? Your comments simply ring hollow.

I never said the restaurants/bars were bleeding money, I said Westgate was bleeding money when there is nothing going on. How is that not true? You think those lights, water fountains, giant LCD screens, etc all pay for themselves? The place is a ghost town and there is no money being made. Sure, it may make some of it back when a big game happens, but the only game is 8 times a year during a short part of the year. Try reading next time instead of just chopping up what I said and trying to make it into some illogical argument.

[CANUC]

The only thing illogical is your method of rationalizing your arguments. You have been proven wrong on every argument you have made and your only response is to regurgitate the same falsities that have already been disproved. You make blanket statements with no evidence to back them up, for example:

So for 8 weeks of the year, there are people at Westgate. Every other night, especially during the week, the place is a ghost town and is bleeding money.

...and when it is pointed out to you that indeed the restaurants and bars are patronized regardless of events your response is simply

I never said the restaurants/bars were bleeding money, I said Westgate was bleeding money when there is nothing going on

...huh? I don’t get it, are you trying to separate the structure from the business’ it houses in order to explain your argument? How old are you? And what’s with this 8 week crap? Do you really think UofP or the Coyote arena sit idol simply waiting for the next game? Really, are you that naïve?

I acknowledged that they were above .500 by stating "go back to being a .500 team" and then a qualified that 9-7 is pretty much .500 anyways because it is only a one win difference. It sounds great to say 9-7 but that is one lucky game difference...so ya, they really were a .500 team.

Sorry I don’t play make believe. If I did I could as easily say had they not closed up shop after clinching their division they could have ended the season 11 and 5, see skewing reality is easy. By the way I like the way you ignore the fact that their standings in attendance had nothing to do with actual tickets sales but the size of the venue. Oh but why be bothered by such trivial things like facts, right?

I said I refuse to go there for hockey games...not "in general".

More contradictory statements, so what is it? Do you go to this boring place with terrible restaurants to torture yourself but won’t go during an NHL game? If its so bad why do you go there “generally”?

I guess I don’t understand your response to what was an innocuous post. I don’t have a dog in this fight and could care less what far flung “lifestyle” center is more popular. I just find it amusing that you have such a visceral response to an article about a freaking casino possibly going up by Westgate. The protest start Monday I’ll send you a sign up sheet.

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

Talk about a cut and paste job. I acknowledged that they were above .500 by stating "go back to being a .500 team" and then a qualified that 9-7 is pretty much .500 anyways because it is only a one win difference. It sounds great to say 9-7 but that is one lucky game difference...so ya, they really were a .500 team.

Sound to me like you have more of a problem with the Cardinals themselves then anything else.

Could I say that they are a 10-6 team...because, you know, it's only one win away from 9-7?

[glynnjamin]

^You're right, you could. Football is a ridiculous sport in that sense. They play too few games for the true good teams to shine and the mediocre teams to fail. It is all about luck. A 16 game sample size is so small and, when compared amongst others, it fails to reveal who the good and bad teams really are. Over a longer season, you would actually be able to determine who is a good, mediocre, or bad team. Over 16 games, you can't say much. Then you get into the playoff situation and you leave every game up to chance with a one-and-done format. In a best of three series, would the Cardinals have proven to be a better team? Maybe. Does the entire season come down to one interception that was run back for 100 yard touch down? Yes. That is the flaw with football.

As far Westgate goes, I'll try and explain it better since you can't seem to comprehend prepositional phrases when they act as qualifiers.

Westgate is a complex. It is a strip mall-like structure housing restaurants and a few shops. It costs money to run all of the pretty little things that make up Westgate. When the shops aren't busy, the incidental stuff is being wasted. Why do you need some mall to collect these places and take a cut of their rent and use it for lights and signs and water that dances to music? Doesn't 83rd Ave at Bell Rd have more restaurants and more shops than Westgate but doesn't have the overhead? They have a stadium that is used for only a month (although there are Rookie League games played almost year-round) and there are always people at the restaurant. My evidence is anecdotal, sure, but that is because the places don't release individual store data and I have to go on what I see. I go out to Westgate and meet friends who live in that area. Sometimes we go Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday. I have been to every restaurant over there and in every shop. I have been to games at both places and movies at the theater. I suppose I understand that the burden is on me to prove that the shops there are not packed all of the time but I have yet to see anything that shows the businesses ARE successful during the week.
As far as I know, most of those condos around Westgate are sitting empty.
From looking at the Univ.of Phx Stadium calendar, it does go unused on non-game days. The weekends are usually occupied but again, I am talking about Westgate losing money during the week. Look at October of last year. Nothing. In November, the naturalization ceremony was the only non-game thing to happen during the week. Looking at it this year, seems like "Northwest Valley BootCamp" is the only thing that happens during the week. That is probably not enough to impact Westgate significantly.
The Coyotes' attendance numbers actually seem to be up over last year but the team continues to lose money.
The Jobbing.Com Arena is also rarely used when there isn't a game. There was ONE event in June last year. 2 in July. 6 in August. So over 100 days, the place was used 9 times.
I'll admit that I didn't know the Cards' stadium was the smallest in the NFL. Even the Lions had 83% capacity this year with their terrible record. But I don't see how 8 days of popularity can make an impact on Westgate. Could you have built a bigger stadium in central Phoenix and still had sell-out games? Could you have built a 93K-seat stadium in Glendale and seen sellouts 10 years after it was built? Coyotes have suffered because of the the strike but they have also suffered because of their location. The east valley has strong sports supporters and I stand by my statement that the Cards/Yotes would have been better places in the center of the city.

[shawneriksmith]

Originally Posted by glynnjamin

^You're right, you could. Football is a ridiculous sport in that sense. They play too few games for the true good teams to shine and the mediocre teams to fail. It is all about luck. A 16 game sample size is so small and, when compared amongst others, it fails to reveal who the good and bad teams really are. Over a longer season, you would actually be able to determine who is a good, mediocre, or bad team. Over 16 games, you can't say much. Then you get into the playoff situation and you leave every game up to chance with a one-and-done format. In a best of three series, would the Cardinals have proven to be a better team? Maybe. Does the entire season come down to one interception that was run back for 100 yard touch down? Yes. That is the flaw with football.

As far Westgate goes, I'll try and explain it better since you can't seem to comprehend prepositional phrases when they act as qualifiers.

Westgate is a complex. It is a strip mall-like structure housing restaurants and a few shops. It costs money to run all of the pretty little things that make up Westgate. When the shops aren't busy, the incidental stuff is being wasted. Why do you need some mall to collect these places and take a cut of their rent and use it for lights and signs and water that dances to music? Doesn't 83rd Ave at Bell Rd have more restaurants and more shops than Westgate but doesn't have the overhead? They have a stadium that is used for only a month (although there are Rookie League games played almost year-round) and there are always people at the restaurant. My evidence is anecdotal, sure, but that is because the places don't release individual store data and I have to go on what I see. I go out to Westgate and meet friends who live in that area. Sometimes we go Tuesday, Thursday, or Saturday. I have been to every restaurant over there and in every shop. I have been to games at both places and movies at the theater. I suppose I understand that the burden is on me to prove that the shops there are not packed all of the time but I have yet to see anything that shows the businesses ARE successful during the week.
As far as I know, most of those condos around Westgate are sitting empty.
From looking at the Univ.of Phx Stadium calendar, it does go unused on non-game days. The weekends are usually occupied but again, I am talking about Westgate losing money during the week. Look at October of last year. Nothing. In November, the naturalization ceremony was the only non-game thing to happen during the week. Looking at it this year, seems like "Northwest Valley BootCamp" is the only thing that happens during the week. That is probably not enough to impact Westgate significantly.
The Coyotes' attendance numbers actually seem to be up over last year but the team continues to lose money.
The Jobbing.Com Arena is also rarely used when there isn't a game. There was ONE event in June last year. 2 in July. 6 in August. So over 100 days, the place was used 9 times.
I'll admit that I didn't know the Cards' stadium was the smallest in the NFL. Even the Lions had 83% capacity this year with their terrible record. But I don't see how 8 days of popularity can make an impact on Westgate. Could you have built a bigger stadium in central Phoenix and still had sell-out games? Could you have built a 93K-seat stadium in Glendale and seen sellouts 10 years after it was built? Coyotes have suffered because of the the strike but they have also suffered because of their location. The east valley has strong sports supporters and I stand by my statement that the Cards/Yotes would have been better places in the center of the city.

Here is a link to the UoP stadium event calendar:
http://www.universityofphoenixstadiu...ction=calendar

Not that I'm saying the stadium is used every single day, but on November 6 of last year there was the Southwest Landscape & Nursery Expo in addition to the Naturalization Ceremony on Nov 19. And, this year, is pretty packed...consider in January there were only 6 weekdays that the stadium was not being used and in February there are 5 weekdays of no use. There is also Jobing.com arena which has several concerts each month as well. So, although Westgate is in the West Valley, it does have a lot of things going for it...yes, a lot of the condos are empty but so are the condos in Phoenix/Tempe/Scottsdale. That's a Phoenix metro / nationwide problem; not Westgate.

Although, I do think it would have been better to have the stadium built in the East Valley, preferably near the current Tempe light rail, but the East Valley cities didn't want to accomodate. So, considering the stadium has only been open for 2 years now, I would consider Westgate a success considering how many other projects have either been cancelled or not fully built at all.