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  #9001  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2014, 2:55 PM
GeneW GeneW is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Yeah, that building came out surprisingly nasty. One of my bus friends who is an architect was complaining they did an odd mix of expensive things (like having an articulated facade) and cheap things (using inexpensive cladding). My wife believes they originally had a much higher design and the construction manager "value engineered" the cool stuff out of it.

As for the colors, they look pretty awful, but it could have been worse. Look at the Children's Hospital!
Those townhouses are an odd mish-mash of styles but I love Childrens. It's one of my favorite buildings in the city.
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  #9002  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2014, 3:11 PM
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These turned out surprisingly weird. I initially thought they would be attractive brick-facade buildings... but the brick element is a minority. I was really shocked and nauseated the first time I saw the seemingly random rainbow color scheme.
Yup, they are pretty horribly ugly, but at least they add some density. Architects these days are fucking morons, and have no sense of style. Why couldnt they have made the entire building brick? Why add that stupid looking gray thing on to with the horrble cheap cladding and whats with the super tacky rainbow color things, makes it look like a childs toy. For other projects, please for the love of God stop it with the horrible tacky corrugated metal siding, its sickening.
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Last edited by photoLith; Jul 18, 2014 at 3:21 PM.
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  #9003  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2014, 3:26 PM
TBone7281 TBone7281 is offline
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Those townhouses are an odd mish-mash of styles but I love Childrens. It's one of my favorite buildings in the city.
Yup, agreed. The crazy colors of Children's were obviously made to make going to the hospital not seem quite as scary.
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  #9004  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2014, 3:53 PM
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Just wait until they transfer the building to the "WE BUY GOLD" division.
Speaking of corporate signage, was anything ever resolved for the replacement of the digital Bayer sign on Mt. Washington? I walk my dog past there on Grandview often and that stretch of the road is embarrassing to have tourists on. But the spot where the sign is has one of the best views up there. I wonder if Bayer could be talked into adding some sort of public viewing deck over the sign in return for the city making the concessions they want for the replacement. It would really do a lot to help make the walk from the Duquesne Incline to the George Washington statue more presentable and would really add to the little parklet there.
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  #9005  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2014, 4:52 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Yup, they are pretty horribly ugly, but at least they add some density. Architects these days are fucking morons, and have no sense of style. Why couldnt they have made the entire building brick? Why add that stupid looking gray thing on to with the horrble cheap cladding and whats with the super tacky rainbow color things, makes it look like a childs toy. For other projects, please for the love of God stop it with the horrible tacky corrugated metal siding, its sickening.
I'm married to an architect, and talk with various ones quite often. I've concluded that the vast majority of architecture schools basically indoctrinate students so they think designing anything but modernist style is bad. I've heard numerous people tell me that while they like historic styles, it's just wrong in the modern era to make a building with detailed ornament. Which I've never understood - if architecture is an art form, than it's equally valid to work in traditional and modern styles - the same way that folk and electronic music are both equally valid.

Much of the blame, however, does not fall on architects, but on building engineers and general contractors more broadly. Architects often have rather high design ideas which they are promptly told are too expensive for a given project. This usually results in the original massing of a building remaining similar to when it was designed, but the various finishes being progressively cheapened. Thus you end up with cheap metal paneling on everything, crappy lighting fixtures, windows subtly altered, etc.
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  #9006  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2014, 5:02 PM
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I don't necessarily pine for faux-historicism... especially considering today's low quality of materials, disappearance of artisans and suburban-esque zoning often makes attempts at recreating the past look ridiculous.

The problem with so much modernism, however, is there is no regard for context. Every building seems to be designed in a vacuum... lacking cohesion with the surrounding urban fabric... or the ability to connect with humans.
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  #9007  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2014, 6:01 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Those townhouses are an odd mish-mash of styles but I love Childrens. It's one of my favorite buildings in the city.
I like Children's too. I particularly like it when seen from afar, like down in the Strip.
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  #9008  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2014, 8:59 PM
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Classical Architecture is definitely making a small but significant comeback. Part of the problem is, as Evergrey mentioned, a lack of skilled artisans to do the type of work with natural materials that was so common for, oh, the past couple thousand years and the cost of those materials

On the other hand, there are modern construction and manufacturing techniques that now make high quality finishes more economical than at any other time in the post war era. There are also now a few architectural schools (Notre Dame for instance) that focus on traditional and classical architecture and a small but growing cadre of prominent architects (Robert Stern-sort of-but many other lesser known and more orthodox ones) that are properly schooled in classical and traditional architecture. Ironically some of the best classical architects and recent examples are in the US.

Stuff like Bakery Sq residential and the townhouses in L-Ville truly do have a relatively short shelf life. In the east end residents far prefer pre-war residential units or new construction, both which command a premium. The least popular were constructed between 1940-1980 which often bring in the lowest rents per Sq. Ft. in general (though this of course is highly dependent on other variables particularly sub-location)

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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I'm married to an architect, and talk with various ones quite often. I've concluded that the vast majority of architecture schools basically indoctrinate students so they think designing anything but modernist style is bad. I've heard numerous people tell me that while they like historic styles, it's just wrong in the modern era to make a building with detailed ornament. Which I've never understood - if architecture is an art form, than it's equally valid to work in traditional and modern styles - the same way that folk and electronic music are both equally valid.

Much of the blame, however, does not fall on architects, but on building engineers and general contractors more broadly. Architects often have rather high design ideas which they are promptly told are too expensive for a given project. This usually results in the original massing of a building remaining similar to when it was designed, but the various finishes being progressively cheapened. Thus you end up with cheap metal paneling on everything, crappy lighting fixtures, windows subtly altered, etc.
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  #9009  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2014, 9:30 PM
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SkyPittsburgh SkyPittsburgh is offline
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Aside: It appears on the Bakery Square Cam http://bakerysquare.no-ip.biz:8080/v...x.shtml?id=355 and in person that only half of the office building is being constructed in a half and half way. This seems a little peculiar, or were the plans changed from what we saw earlier?


EDIT: It appears that according to the plans, there is a cut through that will require some extra maneuvering with the steel. It will take some time in order to move the steel in order to make this cut through possible.

Last edited by SkyPittsburgh; Jul 18, 2014 at 9:43 PM. Reason: Solved my own question.
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  #9010  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2014, 10:09 PM
DKNewYork DKNewYork is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I'm married to an architect, and talk with various ones quite often. I've concluded that the vast majority of architecture schools basically indoctrinate students so they think designing anything but modernist style is bad. I've heard numerous people tell me that while they like historic styles, it's just wrong in the modern era to make a building with detailed ornament. Which I've never understood - if architecture is an art form, than it's equally valid to work in traditional and modern styles - the same way that folk and electronic music are both equally valid.

Much of the blame, however, does not fall on architects, but on building engineers and general contractors more broadly. Architects often have rather high design ideas which they are promptly told are too expensive for a given project. This usually results in the original massing of a building remaining similar to when it was designed, but the various finishes being progressively cheapened. Thus you end up with cheap metal paneling on everything, crappy lighting fixtures, windows subtly altered, etc.
Good points, particularly about the "indoctrination" received at many of the country architectural schools. Someone else mentioned the classical orientation at Notre Dame, which has been in place for about 20+ years and still garners a good amount of commentary and press--I guess proving that the notion is still considered fairly revolutionary.

Not to say that faux-historical is necessarily good architecture. It can be awfully cheesy. And when contemporary architecture is done really well (admittedly not often), it can be stellar (CMU's Gates Center, for example).

Even more than the engineers and GCs, the clients are to blame for much of the current state of architecture. They are ultimately driving the process. If clients demanded superb design detail, they would get it. Their architects would be thrilled and the engineers and contractors would have to deliver.

Just curious---how often does your wife need to re-do a great design in order to adhere to the client's wishes or budget?
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  #9011  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2014, 10:29 PM
ladsnine ladsnine is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I'm married to an architect, and talk with various ones quite often. I've concluded that the vast majority of architecture schools basically indoctrinate students so they think designing anything but modernist style is bad. I've heard numerous people tell me that while they like historic styles, it's just wrong in the modern era to make a building with detailed ornament. Which I've never understood - if architecture is an art form, than it's equally valid to work in traditional and modern styles - the same way that folk and electronic music are both equally valid.

Much of the blame, however, does not fall on architects, but on building engineers and general contractors more broadly. Architects often have rather high design ideas which they are promptly told are too expensive for a given project. This usually results in the original massing of a building remaining similar to when it was designed, but the various finishes being progressively cheapened. Thus you end up with cheap metal paneling on everything, crappy lighting fixtures, windows subtly altered, etc.
There are some bad architects out there, but many of them are very good. Architects try very hard to make great buildings, but the reality is that the aesthetic side of things is only like 5% of the profession. 95% of it is meeting various codes and standards, working with clients, ensuring enough space around desks and in bathrooms, planning parking spaces, etc., as well as generally managing the construction project, since architects are the ones ultimately responsible for the building standing up and being functional. While the design is important, developers generally aren't willing to pay for good (or even decent) design, so architects work within the constraints they have and use the highest-quality materials they can afford. And as mentioned above, the budget often gets decreased or consumed by functional requirements (or inflation) as a project moves forward, so the nicer "unnecessary" stuff gets value-engineered out and in the end only a few, or none, of the nice finishes get built. Another reality of the profession is that architects are not well-paid. They often get about 5% of the construction cost to design a building and manage its construction, which is about the same as what a realtor gets paid for selling a building. As a result, there often just isn't time available in the fee to work out the nitty-gritty details of something very unique and complex and still make a profit. Certainly not tons of unique details per building.

As for historical ornament, it's true that many architecture schools tend to indoctrinate their students to modernism. Notre Dame is a notable exception. However, even if you want to make something classical or ornamental, the reality is that it is impossibly expensive to do with modern materials and labor costs. A hundred years ago, ornamental stone and brick and terra cotta pieces were made by hand by Polish or Irish laborers paid pennies and erected by low-paid laborers as well. Nowadays, workers in the construction trades are paid quite well and there are only a handful of companies in the United States that still make ornament. For example, there are only two terra cotta factories in the whole country. In 1900, every city had several. Robert AM Stern does classical buildings. Many people think he is very good at it, though I don't agree. Anyway, in 2008 he completed a new classical high-rise called 15 Central Park West in NYC meant to emulate pre-war highrises in materials and aesthetic. It cost over $1000/SF to build. In contrast, your typical mid-rise apartment building not in NYC has a budget of about $150-250/SF. The result, for the few projects that try to emulate classicism is precast concrete in the place of limestone, with very simplified details that look really corny, and bland modern brick. Chicago had an architect that tried to do classicism during the last condo boom, Lucien Lagrange, but it always came out looking like bad Post-modernism, not actual classicism. Rich people gobbled it up anyway, but for people with actual style sense, it was pretty hideous. That said, I have high hopes that with the rise of 3D-printing and cheap laser cutting, making sheets of cheap ornamental material may be possible again soon, either for use with classicism or perhaps completely new ornamental styles of architecture.

As for lack of contextualness, that is a valid criticism of architects. Most are really bad at it. Architecture schools teach their students that each building is a unique work of art by its designer, and I think a lot of architects never get out of that mindset, even when they are creating a background building. Why be contextual with what's already there? I'm creating something COMPLETELY NEW!! That said, contextual design has nothing to do with style. Historical styles can be badly out-of-scale just as much as modernism can. There are subtle things architects can do like lining up floors and taking color cues from surrounding buildings that do a lot to subtly show context and often don't even cost more, but many architects don't do it.
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  #9012  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2014, 3:46 AM
designer3d712 designer3d712 is offline
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There are some bad architects out there, but many of them are very good. Architects try very hard to make great buildings, but the reality is that the aesthetic side of things is only like 5% of the profession. 95% of it is meeting various codes and standards, working with clients, ensuring enough space around desks and in bathrooms, planning parking spaces, etc., as well as generally managing the construction project, since architects are the ones ultimately responsible for the building standing up and being functional. While the design is important, developers generally aren't willing to pay for good (or even decent) design, so architects work within the constraints they have and use the highest-quality materials they can afford. And as mentioned above, the budget often gets decreased or consumed by functional requirements (or inflation) as a project moves forward, so the nicer "unnecessary" stuff gets value-engineered out and in the end only a few, or none, of the nice finishes get built. Another reality of the profession is that architects are not well-paid. They often get about 5% of the construction cost to design a building and manage its construction, which is about the same as what a realtor gets paid for selling a building. As a result, there often just isn't time available in the fee to work out the nitty-gritty details of something very unique and complex and still make a profit. Certainly not tons of unique details per building.

As for historical ornament, it's true that many architecture schools tend to indoctrinate their students to modernism. Notre Dame is a notable exception. However, even if you want to make something classical or ornamental, the reality is that it is impossibly expensive to do with modern materials and labor costs. A hundred years ago, ornamental stone and brick and terra cotta pieces were made by hand by Polish or Irish laborers paid pennies and erected by low-paid laborers as well. Nowadays, workers in the construction trades are paid quite well and there are only a handful of companies in the United States that still make ornament. For example, there are only two terra cotta factories in the whole country. In 1900, every city had several. Robert AM Stern does classical buildings. Many people think he is very good at it, though I don't agree. Anyway, in 2008 he completed a new classical high-rise called 15 Central Park West in NYC meant to emulate pre-war highrises in materials and aesthetic. It cost over $1000/SF to build. In contrast, your typical mid-rise apartment building not in NYC has a budget of about $150-250/SF. The result, for the few projects that try to emulate classicism is precast concrete in the place of limestone, with very simplified details that look really corny, and bland modern brick. Chicago had an architect that tried to do classicism during the last condo boom, Lucien Lagrange, but it always came out looking like bad Post-modernism, not actual classicism. Rich people gobbled it up anyway, but for people with actual style sense, it was pretty hideous. That said, I have high hopes that with the rise of 3D-printing and cheap laser cutting, making sheets of cheap ornamental material may be possible again soon, either for use with classicism or perhaps completely new ornamental styles of architecture.

As for lack of contextualness, that is a valid criticism of architects. Most are really bad at it. Architecture schools teach their students that each building is a unique work of art by its designer, and I think a lot of architects never get out of that mindset, even when they are creating a background building. Why be contextual with what's already there? I'm creating something COMPLETELY NEW!! That said, contextual design has nothing to do with style. Historical styles can be badly out-of-scale just as much as modernism can. There are subtle things architects can do like lining up floors and taking color cues from surrounding buildings that do a lot to subtly show context and often don't even cost more, but many architects don't do it.
Well said... It's mostly the Client and the Fee. My company works primarily for Universities, and we were awarded a job about six months ago from an Aviation College (They have the money). We went in with a fee of 5%, and after getting the job, they wanted to drop our fee to 2.5%. We ended up losing the job. Most Architects want to design the best buildings they can, but most of the time the client doesn't want to pay for it.
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  #9013  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2014, 1:25 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Amazon coming to Crafton:

http://buildingpittsburgh.com/2014/07/18/amazon-lands/

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Online retailer Amazon has apparently selected the former Roomful Express warehouse in Crafton for its fulfillment & distribution center in Pittsburgh. The deal is reported to be for 300,000 sq. ft.

Amazon’s decision to move to Pittsburgh doesn’t mean a ton of jobs but it puts the industry leader in online sales in this region. With online shopping expanding into all retail segments, the trend is for more regional fulfillment centers. Amazon’s CEO Mark Bezos plans to sell “everything to everyone” and is aggressively moving to one-day or same-day fulfillment. That he chose Pittsburgh is likely a sign that competitors will view this region as an expansion site.
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  #9014  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2014, 1:27 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Intriguing note:

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These offices complement the spec construction at Southpointe Town Center by Horizon Properties, Elmurst’s Schenley Gardens in Oakland, Millcraft’s Gardens project downtown and the Three Crossings and 350 Fifth Avenue projects that Oxford is planning. Expect to hear more about the latter in August, along with possible news about the ALMONO site from Oxford and Millcraft.
350 Fifth is the project that may be either a renovation or a new skyscraper. So news on that in August is a very interesting possibility.
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  #9015  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2014, 3:01 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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The design of the apartments in Lawrenceville and Bakery Square is purely the work of architects.

Building engineers and general contractors did not select the bizarre rainbow theme nor the odd burnt orange and grey color schemes, they did not select the multiple brickwork colors and patterns, and they certainly did not make the decision on the checkerboard metal paneling.

Let's not let architects off the hook with these examples -- it is poor design which will age terribly.
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  #9016  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2014, 3:04 PM
GeneW GeneW is offline
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I'm happy to see some color and texture being introduced into Pittsburgh architecture. Not everything has to be red-brick.
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  #9017  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2014, 3:05 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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I'm happy to see some color and texture being introduced into Pittsburgh architecture. Not everything has to be red-brick.
I'm all for color and variety... these are bush league examples of both.
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  #9018  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2014, 3:50 PM
ladsnine ladsnine is offline
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I like it. The use of cheap materials isn't good and is a separate problem, but using different colors and textures is great. Architecture is a record of the time/era in which it is built. This is not unlike that cream and baby blue brick that was so popular in the 60s that we love to hate now, but will be considered historic in 20 years and not that different than all those googie ice cream stands from the 50s. As a less flamboyant example, Art Deco was considered crazy and off the deep end when it was built - now we kind of think of it as a conservative style for things, so perceptions change. All in all, I don't buy the "timeless" argument. If society had followed that forever, all our buildings would look really similar and boring and, from a commercial standpoint, there would be nothing to set buildings apart in order to project a personality to help rent/sell units. Aging badly is sometimes part of the natural cycle of cities, and that's totally fine.
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  #9019  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2014, 4:30 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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I like it. The use of cheap materials isn't good and is a separate problem, but using different colors and textures is great. Architecture is a record of the time/era in which it is built. This is not unlike that cream and baby blue brick that was so popular in the 60s that we love to hate now, but will be considered historic in 20 years and not that different than all those googie ice cream stands from the 50s. As a less flamboyant example, Art Deco was considered crazy and off the deep end when it was built - now we kind of think of it as a conservative style for things, so perceptions change. All in all, I don't buy the "timeless" argument. If society had followed that forever, all our buildings would look really similar and boring and, from a commercial standpoint, there would be nothing to set buildings apart in order to project a personality to help rent/sell units. Aging badly is sometimes part of the natural cycle of cities, and that's totally fine.
Again, I'm all for different colors and textures. However, when you combine a variety of colors and textures with cheap materials... the result is almost always something that seems very out of place in a true urban environment to me... like something that better belongs in one of those new "walkable" suburban shopping center developments. I'm expecting these:

to have a megaplex movie theater across the street echoing the garish colors and patterns.

If this:

was the actual built result, then no problem at all.

However, architects need to practice with the solid understanding of budget constraints and context (I agree fully with what Evergrey said regarding context in the neighborhood) and realize that their attempts at creativity will most likely end up looking like crap, given the materials that will actually be used. Designing something great within those financial and contextual constraints is what good architecture should be about in developments like these.
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  #9020  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2014, 5:39 PM
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That building would have looked fine without that fourth floor thing, thats what makes it look like complete cheap crap garbage. But no doubt theyve already rented/sold all the rooms so developers will be like, well obviously people like this crap so theyll keep building modern garbage like it. Im going to find out who the architect is for this thing and tell them to fuck off. Architects should build things to be aesthetically pleasing, modern architecture these days just has no rhyme or reason, nothing is built to be a cohesive piece of art like pre-war architecture was. Modern schlock like this looks like someone just put something together in 20 minutes on google sketch up.

DSC_3313 by photolitherland, on Flickr

Why cant architects design things like this anymore? Its gorgeous and things are centered and are cohesive. That new apartment thing makes no sense, theres no beauty to it or order. Architecture should have order and make sense. It shouldnt just be a random amalgamation of random objects and tin clad siding.
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Last edited by photoLith; Jul 19, 2014 at 5:53 PM.
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