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  #81  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 2:17 AM
lio45 lio45 is offline
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Originally Posted by niwell View Post
Let me tell you, the stretches of streets in Johannesburg when the streetlights are out can get extremely terrifying.
Yeah, I'm a bit skeptical of those studies that say a pitch black street is "just as safe" as a well-lit one.

I mean, sure, if you tasked me with producing such a study, I'd do what we discussed earlier in this very thread and use data from empty streets in urban prairie neighborhoods where there's no one at all (and therefore the city has turned lighting off), compared to data from populated 'hoods with street lights, and I could easily show that, when using the existing real world data, on a strictly per-mile basis, dark streets are actually safer.
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  #82  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 2:20 AM
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Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007 View Post
It would just return things to a more natural state of affairs. Night is supposed to be dark.
A more natural state of affairs is that night is dark, and that the "strong"/opportunist/unscrupulous are gladly preying on the "weak"/victims/people who were at the wrong place at the wrong time. You would likely get your wish of both, in urban neighborhoods.
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  #83  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 2:36 AM
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Well, that didn't take long. Today they switched over the lights on our stree to LEDs to match those that went in the alley last week.

The orange is now gone from my little corner of chicago forever. The whole city is supposed to be done by 2021.

Farewell, orange friend.
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  #84  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 5:03 AM
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Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007 View Post
Were they restricting freedom before street lights were invented? It would just return things to a more natural state of affairs. Night is supposed to be dark.

There are still rural areas that have few, if any, street lights. Are people's freedom being restricted there?
Nobody's walking anywhere in rural areas. People do want/need to walk at night in urban/suburban areas, and they deserve to feel safe while they do so, and not be faced with the choice of having to hide indoors as soon as it's dark. Not to mention that it gets dark at like 4:00pm in the winter. Are people supposed to just not do anything after?

Also, what lio said^. Night being dark might be more natural, but getting jumped out on the street is natural too.
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  #85  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 1:04 PM
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Nobody's walking anywhere in rural areas.
That's not true. Lots of people in rural areas go for walks out at night.

Quote:
People do want/need to walk at night in urban/suburban areas, and they deserve to feel safe while they do so, and not be faced with the choice of having to hide indoors as soon as it's dark. Not to mention that it gets dark at like 4:00pm in the winter. Are people supposed to just not do anything after?

Also, what lio said^. Night being dark might be more natural, but getting jumped out on the street is natural too.
Didn't we already show that experience in the UK has demonstrated that crime does not increase when they turn the streets lights off at night?

Yes we did. One last time: Turning street lights off at night does not increase crime. See post #53 for details.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, once again, if we did my suggestion, since lights would not go off until, say, 10 or 11 at night, that is plenty of time for people to walk their dogs, go for a walk or whatnot. So the women who might be afraid of being jumped in the dark need not worry about that as long as they go out and do whatever they want to do before 10 or 11.

I'm not suggesting eliminating street lights altogether, as I said, I'm only suggesting turning them off after a certain time at night. At least on Sunday-Thursday nights, most people are in bed by 10 or 11 anyway.
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  #86  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 1:07 PM
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Historically it seems that in many larger cities people just shut themselves inside once it got dark out. Being outside at night could be a dangerous proposition. If we want to talk about a natural state of affairs I don't think large cities would really exist - we'd all be living in rural areas or at most small towns. Street lighting arose tackle a real issue.

There are probably lower density areas that could do well with some of the street lights (maybe not all) turned off after a certain time. Traffic is also a consideration, of course.
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  #87  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 1:14 PM
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Rome, Tenochtitlan and other ancient cities reached hundreds of thousands of people long before street lighting became a thing. That has nothing to do with why cities exist.
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  #88  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 1:33 PM
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Ancient Rome (and Greece) did have a form of street lighting - though it was primarily individual oil lamps outside of private dwellings. The wealthy also had dedicated slaves with lamps and security to guide them to their destination in the off chance they were out at night. While records aren't great with specifics, by all accounts it was considered to be very dangerous outside after dark - for the most part you locked yourself inside at sunset. City gates were closed off and the majority of commerce stopped.

I can't speak to the situation in other large ancient cities - it may have been different in Asia or Central America. The start of modern, municipally mandated street lighting began in Paris in the 1600s, IIRC.
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  #89  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 1:45 PM
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Also, if you absolutely needed to walk around after 10 or 11, you could always bring a flashlight.
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  #90  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 2:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007 View Post
That's not true. Lots of people in rural areas go for walks out at night.


Didn't we already show that experience in the UK has demonstrated that crime does not increase when they turn the streets lights off at night?

Yes we did. One last time: Turning street lights off at night does not increase crime. See post #53 for details.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, once again, if we did my suggestion, since lights would not go off until, say, 10 or 11 at night, that is plenty of time for people to walk their dogs, go for a walk or whatnot. So the women who might be afraid of being jumped in the dark need not worry about that as long as they go out and do whatever they want to do before 10 or 11.

I'm not suggesting eliminating street lights altogether, as I said, I'm only suggesting turning them off after a certain time at night. At least on Sunday-Thursday nights, most people are in bed by 10 or 11 anyway.
From what I've read, those studies aren't incompatible with the idea that crime rates per person who's out there (instead of just per capita in the neighborhood) are much higher when the streets are dark, because they don't seem to account for the fact that many people might then just stay inside instead of venturing out in the dark.

Example:

Before: 1% of people who get out at night (in lit streets) get mugged. There are 10,000 people in the neighborhood. 1,000 of them get out at night. That's 10 crimes per night.

After: the streets are now dark, and 100% of people who get out at night (in dark streets) now get gruesomely killed. There are still the same 10,000 people in the neighborhood. 9,995 of them stay home at night now, because they aren't crazy. The remaining 5 venture out in the dark and get killed.

The cold hard data on paper will say that turning off the street lighting has reduced the crime rate by half. Meanwhile the reality is that the streets are now much more dangerous than back when they were lit at night.
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  #91  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 3:11 PM
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the issue of turning off streetlights is moot.

a city like chicago is not going to be turning its street lights off.

the new LEDs chicago is putting in apparently allow the lights to be dimmed, which they might possibly be after a certain hour, but the city is not going to turn the lights off altogether.

and no amount of studies will ever change that.

if streetlights bother you, buy some black-out shades for your bedroom windows.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 21, 2019 at 3:25 PM.
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  #92  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 3:14 PM
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Here is a link to the study in Encolplus' article. It doesn't sound like that's what they're talking about:
https://jech.bmj.com/content/69/11/1...jech_ahead_tab

People who are complaining that crime rates might actually increase even if gross numbers decrease seem to be assuming that criminals aren't affected by the lack of lighting, whereas other citizens are. If 20% of non-criminals reduce their activities after the lights go out because they cannot see very well anymore, there's no reason to believe that criminals won't be similarly affected. Criminals have to see things to commit crimes, just as much as ordinary citizens have to see to walk their dogs.
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  #93  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 4:01 PM
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imho proper street/sidewalk lighting is a nonnegotiable public service. everything from trip hazards to seeing people crossing the street to psychological comfort. proper street lighting is also often a life or death situation re: policing...we really don't need to give police any more reasons to shoot.
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  #94  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 4:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007 View Post
So the women who might be afraid of being jumped in the dark need not worry about that as long as they go out and do whatever they want to do before 10 or 11.

So essentially, a curfew.



If nothing else, having lived through a few blackouts in my time - as I'm sure most of us have - having to navigate dark streets by flashlight is inconvenient at best, dangerous at work.
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  #95  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 4:27 PM
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Have they been imposing curfews in those British and German towns? Do they have curfews in rural areas with no street lights?

I don't think so.

You can still go out at night, it's just that it would be darker. Nobody would be forcing you to do anything.
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  #96  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 4:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007 View Post
Have they been imposing curfews in those British and German towns? Do they have curfews in rural areas with no street lights?

I don't think so.

You can still go out at night, it's just that it would be darker. Nobody would be forcing you to do anything.

Do those British and German towns have the traffic volumes and crime rates in line with big cities? Do they have millions of people who go out or work at night? What might work out okay for a small commuter town in Essex isn't going to work for Chicago.
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  #97  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 4:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin View Post
What might work out okay for a small commuter town in Essex isn't going to work for Chicago.
and even if it did work for chicago, it's an entirely moot point because it's

not.

gonna.

happen.
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  #98  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 5:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Centropolis View Post
imho proper street/sidewalk lighting is a nonnegotiable public service. everything from trip hazards to seeing people crossing the street to psychological comfort. proper street lighting is also often a life or death situation re: policing...we really don't need to give police any more reasons to shoot.
Yeah I'm not so much worried about crime but it is quite difficult to walk around at night without proper lights. I was walking around poorly lit neighborhood in Bucharest the other night and I had to use my phone flashlight to make sure I wasn't about to trip on a broken sidewalk or step in dog shit. Also, I already don't like biking in the dark and it would be a lot worse without street lights.
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  #99  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 6:04 PM
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There was a physics chapter in high school which covered this basic stuff peeps.

It was probably mentioned already, but... lighting color temperature has nothing to do with whether a lamp is LED (or compact or linear fluorescent).

LED lamps come in basically ALL color temperatures from around 2000K (warm; orange) to 6000K (cool; bluish)

The fact that Chicago chose those very bright white, "daylight" 4000-5000 Kelvin LED streetlamps must have been a conscious choice for one reason or another. Probably nighttime vision/safety and cost concerns.

LEDs are NOT exclusively bright white.

There are LED lamps for ALL lighting fixtures, including streetlamps, which glow in a color exactly the same as incandescent or sodium vapor or metal halide, etc.

This is a VERY basic lighting color temperature depiction of the most common CCT values.

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  #100  
Old Posted May 21, 2019, 6:37 PM
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The fact that Chicago chose those very bright white, "daylight" 4000-5000 Kelvin LED streetlamps must have been a conscious choice for one reason or another.
for like the 3rd time now, chicago's new LED streetlights are 3000K.

they are still very noticeably whiter than the old 2200K HP sodium lamps they are replacing.

my neighborhood is no longer orange at night, and i miss that.
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Last edited by Steely Dan; May 21, 2019 at 7:14 PM.
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