Chaos on commercial streets: For fans of gritty, cluttered stores and restaurants.

[Segun]

^ It really doesn't strike me as that invasive, only because the street is so narrow. It's not the best urban practice, but based on the pictures you posted, I'd still go.

In a bizarre 6 degrees of seperation way, it reminds me of some of the newer roads in Ghana.

https://goo.gl/maps/uMDshzxrbqt


Speaking of Ghana, that's on a whole different level. Visiting a place like Accra, sometimes you're reminded that the majority of the World doesn't drive.

https://goo.gl/maps/zXPPAVbiBTC2

https://goo.gl/maps/g9W466nrXts

Great shots by everyone!

[mhays]

Originally Posted by BnaBreaker

Well, yeah, like I said, I was posting pics of the closest Nashville could come which was meant to imply that I was well aware that some of those examples did not meet all the criteria. Anyway, oddly enough, those two or three areas you singled out were designed like that from the beginning in the thirties or forties, where instead of a sidewalk between the buildings and the street there was a single strip of parking. Must be a southern thing, because I've seen that in other places too.

There's also a regular sidewalk that's been completely blocked by a car.

My city isn't perfect on this, but that wouldn't happen in a walkable district.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

I rarely find that a single grocery store or even 2 meets my desires if not my needs. I'll buy basic canned goods from Safeway but I much prefer CostCo for things I will buy in larger quantities like dishwasher soap, toilet paper, paper towels etc. But then I prefer organic veggies and antibiotic-free meat so that means Whole Foods or an independent and there's a particular store that sells the Tartine bread I crave.

Finally we agree on something, and this is really the point I was trying to make. If one has to settle for what the single grocery store around the corner does/doesn't offer just because it's the only option within comfortable walking distance, then that's a reduction in quality of life IMO. To me, car-free living at its best doesn't constrain one's options and make you feel like you're stranded on an island being forced to make do with less or sacrifice things you otherwise wouldn't want to. If travel (foot, personal car, Uber/Lyft, bike, bus, train) beyond a half-mile radius is required to meet the majority of one's needs and desires, and/or greatly expands one's options of basic amenities, then their neighborhood isn't great for car-free living *IMO*.

And this is just amenities. Transit connectivity, urban design, and safety are also important factors in evaluating car-free potential.

[badrunner]

^ Half mile radius is about a hundred city blocks so it's theoretically possible. But in reality there are very few neighborhoods with the density of amenities and retail where you could meet all your needs just by walking. You know, it's possible to be a car-loving urban enthusiast.

[badrunner]

Some of the images in this thread are the opposite of what I would call gritty and cluttered. They're picture perfect postcard images of immaculately clean and orderly city streets.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by badrunner

^ Half mile radius is about a hundred city blocks so it's theoretically possible. But in reality there are very few neighborhoods with the density of amenities and retail where you could meet all your needs just by walking. You know, it's possible to be a car-loving urban enthusiast.

Precisely.

And it’s here that I will once again point out that car-free living in much of the traditional “urban” cities is a reflection of car ownership being too much of an inconvenience, rather than the actual built environment being a great place to walk. Wide streets, narrow sidewalks, sparse/spotty commercial strips, safety issues, and lack of quality transit options are all things that detract from the pedestrian experience.

[Leveled]

Isnt car ownership a result of the inconvenience of not owning a car?

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Quixote

Precisely.

And it’s here that I will once again point out that car-free living in much of the traditional “urban” cities is a reflection of car ownership being too much of an inconvenience, rather than the actual built environment being a great place to walk. Wide streets, narrow sidewalks, sparse/spotty commercial strips, safety issues, and lack of quality transit options are all things that detract from the pedestrian experience.

Not at all. People don't own cars because they don't need them in traditional "urban" cities. I don't own a car because it would collect dust and parking tickets for 99% of the time.

[Quixote]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Not at all. People don't own cars because they don't need them in traditional "urban" cities. I don't own a car because it would collect dust and parking tickets for 99% of the time.

There’s a distinction between being car-unfriendly (which you just touched on) and being genuinely pedestrian-friendly. Is it not true that vast swaths of the traditional urban cities (sans New York) suffer from several of the conditions I mentioned?

[Quixote]

Households without vehicles, as of 2016:

NYC (54.4%)
DC (37.3%)
Boston (33.8%)
SF (29.9%)
Philadelphia (29.5%)
Chicago (27.5%)

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/ca...-city-map.html

The numbers support my point. Transit has the highest mode share in terms of commuting to work, but basically 2/3 households own a car. “Car-lite” living is a more appropriate characterization.

[muertecaza]

Originally Posted by llamaorama

A sad thing about Houston is that it has virtually ZERO areas like this. There are definitely immigrant heavy areas with "chaotic" businesses but they are in suburban strip malls. If you are looking for fruit markets or elote as described above, they would be in outlying areas, also either in strip malls or as food trucks or stands in the parking lots of dead ones.

There is a vanishingly small number of sidewalk-facing commercial districts. A few blocks of downtown, a few blocks in the Heights, Rice Village, and a scattering of intersections all over the city. None of them are relevant to anything, a few are gentrified most are deader than dead. A lot of neighborhoods have a couple of buildings which still come up all the way to the street, but they are abandoned. The areas with the greatest potential are the most blighted, like off N. Main in the near Northside or all along Harrisburg in the East End. For some reason the city's homeless shelters are always close to whatever skeleton of a historic commercial district still exist.

The greatest opportunity for pedestrian urbanism in this city lies with new development IMO.

Same with Phoenix. The urban commercial streets are some of the things I like most about other cities, and one of the things that is most lacking in Phoenix. I can't think of a single street that would really fit OP's description. Most distinct suburbs have one sidewalk-facing commercial district in their little downtowns (Tempe, Mesa, Scottsdale, Gilbert, etc.), but I wouldn't describe any of those as "gritty." And Phoenix proper doesn't really even have that. McDowell road (just north of downtown has some pock-marked old street-facing commercial buildings left. But the examples I can think of have either been rehabbed on a limited basis (like, for half a block) and are populated by chain restaurants:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4658...7i16384!8i8192

Or are vacant:

https://www.google.com/maps/@33.4656...7i16384!8i8192

And McDowell road itself is a six-lane mini-freeway anyway that could never give you the feeling of the really outstanding commercial streets in this thread.

There is a just-about-to-gentrify area just east of downtown in Phoenix that I've thought could possibly in a best case scenario become something like Alberta in Portland--a mix of single-family-cum-commercial buildings, small multifamily buildings and purpose built commercial buildings. But I doubt you could recreate something like Alberta inorganically. There was also a lot of hullabaloo, planning sessions, expensive consultants etc. a few years back geared toward turning the few remaining historic warehouse buildings just south of downtown into a commercial/entertainment district, but predictably nothing came of it.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Quixote

There’s a distinction between being car-unfriendly (which you just touched on) and being genuinely pedestrian-friendly. Is it not true that vast swaths of the traditional urban cities (sans New York) suffer from several of the conditions I mentioned?

If you're saying that people live in places that are not convenient to live without a car, but don't own one because it's not convenient to own a car... It's possible, but I'm skeptical that there are a meaningful number of people who live in an environment that fits both criteria.

On the other hand, I know a few people that live in areas that are way more car-friendly than where I live in Brooklyn, but choose to go without one because they don't need it. I think there are more people who opt out of car ownership than are deprived of it.

[ChrisLA]

Originally Posted by Segun

Yep. One of my favorite strips is Ventura as it goes through the valley, there's some real affluent spots, but much of it has a mix of walkup businesses, and strip malls with 20 stores in them. Its one of those drives where you see how endlessly big and Blue Collar LA is.....

https://goo.gl/maps/JdGo31F5c162

Although this particular spot is on Ventura is rather bland and uninteresting, I can assure you this neighborhood certainly isn’t blue collar. This is on the western edge of Woodland Hills which is some middle, and more so upper middle class to wealthy.

I live about an 1/2 mile from this stretch of Ventura Blvd and pass it every day. If you go a few blocks east, you will have your Whole Foods, Trader Joe’s, Sprouts, Starbucks, Coffee Beans, Lexus, Porche, Lamborghini dealerships and just about any type of fancy restaurant, and bar/lounges you can think of from every ethnic background. It is really only a small stretch thats like this, there is a lot of money in the mist of this spot.

I will admit for Woodland Hills to be such an exclusive area, the portion of Ventura Blvd running through here is rather ugly. By the way I live near those highrise buildings to the left in that scene. That’s the Warner Center which is a major business district in the west valley.

[Pedestrian]

^^That's like in San Francisco where the Lamborghini, Bentley and Tesla dealerships are about a block from the edge of the Tenderloin.

[ChrisLA]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

^^That's like in San Francisco where the Lamborghini, Bentley and Tesla dealerships are about a block from the edge of the Tenderloin.

Believe me Woodland Hills is not like the Tenderloin, it’s more so like Brentwood but in the San Fernando Valley. Just a block over from this spot are luxury apartments going up.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Crawford

These are interesting.

Having never been to Copenhagen, I assumed it would vaguely feel like Hamburg or Amsterdam. It looks like a much more modest Vienna, actually. Almost Central European.

Those areas are mainly in the neighborhoods beyond the old gates of Østerport, Nørreport and Vesterport. They were built very quickly in a flurry of 19th century greenfield construction following a royal decree, so they resemble cities that were built over in that era much more than they do the largely 18th century centre of town.

https://goo.gl/maps/W1AA4z7awUP2

https://goo.gl/maps/3CEXCWbcF9t

[proghousehead]

Hillside Avenue in Queens fits the bill. It is an overwhlmingly Bengali neighborhood and at times it is hard to imagine you are still in the USA. Very cool street with some great cheap eats.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7111...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7106...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7098...7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7076...7i16384!8i8192

[Leveled]

Not actually a street, but you got the grit and the clutter.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8537...!7i7200!8i3600

[UrbanNebraska]

South 24th St is Omaha's on real street to fit the bill.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2107...=en&authuser=0

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2099...=en&authuser=0

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2096...=en&authuser=0

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2089...=en&authuser=0

[ChrisLA]

Sherman Way in Canoga Park, Los Angeles San Fernando Valley

https://goo.gl/maps/Wta8rdFmsTD2


Owensmouth Avenue, Canoga Park
https://goo.gl/maps/MbY7RQZEKDv

Sherman Way, Canoga Park
https://goo.gl/maps/S4wYPRVtweT2