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  #961  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2018, 11:34 PM
City Wide City Wide is offline
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Originally Posted by JohnIII View Post
I like Independence Hall; haven't been there is so long.

"So many people in Philly fight against tall buildings it seems"
I'm just guessing but IMO maybe 1 in 5 or 6 proposed high rise buildings get some organized push back, and often its not the height of building that's in question but rather its the development, such as the Toll proposal on Jewelers Row. In other cases, such as 1911 Walnut, I don't think the public ever really knew what was being talked about behind closed doors. And in some situations, like 19th. & Chestnut, the height was issue. Maybe I'm reading too much into your use of "tall".
Other people sometimes say the same thing and I generally don't get that vibe. Philly certainly isn't Houston where anything can be built anyplace (but even that is changing) but I don't get the sense that generally the city is against building tall.
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  #962  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2018, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by JohnIII View Post
I like Independence Hall; haven't been there is so long.

If they ever slate the land north between Callowhill and Spring Garden Street for office towers or highrise condos; say 500' and up; will people mind that when it comes to the view on the Mall. So many people in Philly fight against tall buildings it seems
But, there shouldn't be if zoned CMX-4 with the bonus or CMX-5. I feel like many times the developers don't take advantage to develop to the max height due to economics alone, unless there's already an arrangement like the FMC situation.
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  #963  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2018, 2:41 AM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by McBane View Post
Beyond marketing, someone please tell me the tangible benefits of being a World Heritage City. Can anyone tell me one company that has relocated here b/c of that? Are we expecting a huge uptick in tourism b/c of this designation? Who here has even heard of the World Heritage City designation prior to Philadelphia being added to this list? Can anyone name another World Heritage City? Keep in mind this designation is not the same as UNESCO's World Heritage Site program, which most people have heard of.
It's a feather in the cap, nothing more. I've heard of World Heritage Cities before Philadelphia became one, though I'm under no allusion that it will lead to any massive economic windfall in and of itself.

It's the type of thing that is as valuable as you make it. If you don't do anything with it, it's valueless. But you can certainly leverage it as a marketing tool. Philadelphia is a city that has long brought in tourists through advertising its history, the title of WHC is sort of like an international stamp of approval that says: "yes, this is indeed a really important historic city, a whole group of people dedicated to this topic from across the world have agreed to this fact."

There are many cities on this earth, and a minuscule percentage of them are World Heritage Cities. If nothing else it is exclusivity, which can be valuable to perception. I totally disagree with jsbrook's contention that there would be more World Heritage Cities in the US but the OWHC simply hasn't gotten around to naming them. A city like Boston is a great city filled with history that has been instrumental in the founding of the US, but has anything happened there that is of great significance to the whole of the human race? Because that's the standard we're talking about here. That's the standard Independence Hall has met due the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution.

The average person likely knows nothing about the OWHC, but it's not like it's a difficult concept to grasp, it's essence could be summed up in a sentence or two in marketing copy. It's not going to bring tourists or businesses here on it's own, but used properly it could be that extra bit of flair that pushes us over the top. How many international tourists come to the east coast and decide between Philly and Boston for a leg of their trip? It's just another bit ammunition to win that fight.
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  #964  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2018, 5:48 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnIII View Post
I like Independence Hall; haven't been there is so long.

If they ever slate the land north between Callowhill and Spring Garden Street for office towers or highrise condos; say 500' and up; will people mind that when it comes to the view on the Mall. So many people in Philly fight against tall buildings it seems
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9505...2!8i6656?hl=en

vs.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9505...2!8i6656?hl=en

I definitely would choose #1
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  #965  
Old Posted Apr 6, 2018, 6:50 PM
jsbrook jsbrook is offline
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
It's a feather in the cap, nothing more. I've heard of World Heritage Cities before Philadelphia became one, though I'm under no allusion that it will lead to any massive economic windfall in and of itself.

It's the type of thing that is as valuable as you make it. If you don't do anything with it, it's valueless. But you can certainly leverage it as a marketing tool. Philadelphia is a city that has long brought in tourists through advertising its history, the title of WHC is sort of like an international stamp of approval that says: "yes, this is indeed a really important historic city, a whole group of people dedicated to this topic from across the world have agreed to this fact."

There are many cities on this earth, and a minuscule percentage of them are World Heritage Cities. If nothing else it is exclusivity, which can be valuable to perception. I totally disagree with jsbrook's contention that there would be more World Heritage Cities in the US but the OWHC simply hasn't gotten around to naming them. A city like Boston is a great city filled with history that has been instrumental in the founding of the US, but has anything happened there that is of great significance to the whole of the human race? Because that's the standard we're talking about here. That's the standard Independence Hall has met due the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution.

The average person likely knows nothing about the OWHC, but it's not like it's a difficult concept to grasp, it's essence could be summed up in a sentence or two in marketing copy. It's not going to bring tourists or businesses here on it's own, but used properly it could be that extra bit of flair that pushes us over the top. How many international tourists come to the east coast and decide between Philly and Boston for a leg of their trip? It's just another bit ammunition to win that fight.
New York and Boston don't have Independence Hall, and I would say we otherwise edge them out. But they are just as significant as scores of cities OWHC has named as World Heritage cities in other countries. Otherwise agree.
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  #966  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2018, 12:45 AM
Inquizative Inquizative is offline
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All big cities have their NIMBY contingent. The skittish group who fear our man-made mountains will block out the sun, create wind and parking and just the imposing image of a 1000 ft behemoth. The acrophobic type that longs for nostalgic days of horse drawn carriages and quaint cottages with white picket fences. This culminates into the fear of the NYC style existence. Then there's us geeks, the folks who love development, and the image of city in which it's skyline can be seen many miles away. The beautiful nighttime glow of angular, engineering masterpieces that define who we are and say, we're here, we're strong and progressive, watch us shine. Philadelphia has a recognizable skyline (Liberty Place towers) that defines us. Put it on a t-shirt, and it says Philadelphia without words.

However we must not forget, skyscrapers above all serve a utility purpose. They are only going to be as tall as needed to bring a profit. If there is no businesses or residents to live in these engineering marvels, example, "The American Commerce Center," then they will be there for the sole purpose of trophy aesthetics and that will break the bank.

Our skyline will continue to grow, Philly will be that affordable niche, that pinnacle centerpoint between NYC and D.C., that businesses will find ideal to set up shop. Philadelphia is the easy access to the end points of the financial capital and the political capital... and the NIMBY's will always be around to moan and groan when something tall is in the blueprints.
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  #967  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2018, 12:54 AM
Inquizative Inquizative is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnIII View Post
I like Independence Hall; haven't been there is so long.

If they ever slate the land north between Callowhill and Spring Garden Street for office towers or highrise condos; say 500' and up; will people mind that when it comes to the view on the Mall. So many people in Philly fight against tall buildings it seems
=Inquizative;8146526]All big cities have their NIMBY contingent. The skittish group who fear our man-made mountains will block out the sun, create wind and parking and just the imposing image of a 1000 ft behemoth. The acrophobic type that longs for nostalgic days of horse drawn carriages and quaint cottages with white picket fences. This culminates into the fear of the NYC style existence. Then there's us geeks, the folks who love development, the taller the better. The image of city in which it's skyline can be seen many miles away. The beautiful nighttime glow of angular, engineering masterpieces that define who we are and say, we're here, we're strong and progressive, watch us shine. Philadelphia has a recognizable skyline (Liberty Place towers) that defines us. Put it on a t-shirt, and it says Philadelphia without words.

However we must not forget, skyscrapers above all serve a utility purpose. They are only going to be as tall as needed to bring a profit. If there is no businesses or residents to live in these engineering marvels, example, "The American Commerce Center," then they will be there for the sole purpose of trophy aesthetics and that will break the bank.

Our skyline will continue to grow, Philly will be that affordable niche, that pinnacle centerpoint between NYC and D.C., that businesses will find ideal to set up shop. Philadelphia is the easy access to the end points of the financial capital and the political capital... and the NIMBY's will always be around to moan and groan when something tall is in the blueprints.[/QUOTE]

Last edited by Inquizative; Apr 27, 2020 at 12:23 AM.
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  #968  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2018, 8:17 AM
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hammersklavier hammersklavier is offline
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
I think there's definitely something to be said about the idea that a two-block "mall" being ultimately the perfect way to show Independence Hall off. The whole section north of Market has never felt like it's ever really worked, and of course the section east of 5th has that problematic philosophy that the best way to show buildings off is shearing them from their contexts entirely. I mean, Carpenter's Hall was hidden in the middle of the goddamn block ... most of which was demolished in the interest of carving out this silly historical park!
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  #969  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2018, 5:45 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
I think there's definitely something to be said about the idea that a two-block "mall" being ultimately the perfect way to show Independence Hall off. The whole section north of Market has never felt like it's ever really worked, and of course the section east of 5th has that problematic philosophy that the best way to show buildings off is shearing them from their contexts entirely. I mean, Carpenter's Hall was hidden in the middle of the goddamn block ... most of which was demolished in the interest of carving out this silly historical park!
Yeah, always makes me sad seeing how it used to look. Kind of like old photos of NYC Penn station. I guess maybe it helps put value on a certain amount of preservation.
http://planphilly.com/eyesonthestree...ce-square-1927



Edit: smaller photo, bigger one is on planphily
http://planphilly.com/uploads/media_...s.original.png

Last edited by Skintreesnail; Apr 8, 2018 at 6:06 PM.
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  #970  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2018, 6:33 PM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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its a shame the perimeter spaces don't better activate though this is truly a special place in terms of preservation

something has to be done to better engage/activate the spaces north of market

maybe outdoor spaces for food trucks, music, art, farmers markets.

The Revolutionary war museum with street lined restaurants along 5th may have made more sense across from the visitor center and could have been built long and narrow to keep the open space and consolidated the museums. Maybe the Atwater kent and African American museum could move into the space. the site of the new revolutionary museum may have been better as a commercial or residential space. A moderate residential tower with ground floor retail could have worked well there.

Issue is that the federal park system and urban smarts don't always coexist


The Constitution center and federal buildings just make this area so bland

wonder if there would be anyway to get a decent hotel along the west side of 5th between Market and Arch, could have ground level stuff and roof lounge that would have stellar views. All while still leaving the center expanse open.

on the other side of the park below chestnut and south to 3rd they should allow some restaurants to intersperse etc. Its great space but as served today goes mostly unused


As an aside is there anything at all in the banks or old customs house? shame these places mostly sit vacant
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  #971  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2018, 6:42 PM
Skintreesnail Skintreesnail is offline
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As an aside is there anything at all in the banks or old customs house? shame these places mostly sit vacant
The second bank used to have a portrait gallery. I think the first bank is about to undergo renovation.
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  #972  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2018, 9:52 PM
Inquizative Inquizative is offline
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Wow, talk about density! Didn't know it actually looked better before, too much demolition of beautiful well made buildings.
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  #973  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2018, 2:22 AM
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Wow, talk about density! Didn't know it actually looked better before, too much demolition of beautiful well made buildings.
I've heard it used to be a pretty shit neighborhood actually.
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  #974  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2018, 6:20 AM
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What does any of this have to do with Schuylkill Yards?
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  #975  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2018, 1:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Skintreesnail View Post
The second bank used to have a portrait gallery. I think the first bank is about to undergo renovation.
The Second Bank still has a portrait gallery, and it's free. I'd actually recommend it. It's not very big, but it's interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JurassicPhilly View Post
I've heard it used to be a pretty shit neighborhood actually.
My 91 year old uncle told me that when he came back from WWII, there were adult bookstores across from Independence Hall.
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  #976  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2018, 2:33 PM
allovertown allovertown is offline
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Originally Posted by Kidphilly View Post
its a shame the perimeter spaces don't better activate though this is truly a special place in terms of preservation

something has to be done to better engage/activate the spaces north of market

maybe outdoor spaces for food trucks, music, art, farmers markets.

The Revolutionary war museum with street lined restaurants along 5th may have made more sense across from the visitor center and could have been built long and narrow to keep the open space and consolidated the museums. Maybe the Atwater kent and African American museum could move into the space. the site of the new revolutionary museum may have been better as a commercial or residential space. A moderate residential tower with ground floor retail could have worked well there.

Issue is that the federal park system and urban smarts don't always coexist


The Constitution center and federal buildings just make this area so bland

wonder if there would be anyway to get a decent hotel along the west side of 5th between Market and Arch, could have ground level stuff and roof lounge that would have stellar views. All while still leaving the center expanse open.

on the other side of the park below chestnut and south to 3rd they should allow some restaurants to intersperse etc. Its great space but as served today goes mostly unused


As an aside is there anything at all in the banks or old customs house? shame these places mostly sit vacant
Portrait Gallery is still in Second Bank. Merchant Exchange is National Park offices. First Bank is currently the only of those buildings empty. The last solid plan for the building was over a decade ago when they wanted to put the Civil War museum there. The recession killed that and I don't think there's a plan at the moment.

I disagree with the thought that more structures are needed on the mall. If we're going back in time, there's no way I'd destroy all those buildings, but now that it exists, there's no denying it can be an asset. The full expanse of the mall is rarely used, but when it is used it can be a special place. Even on a random Spring or Summer day, there is plenty of extra space, but to me this is an asset. There are regularly thousands of people in the area and the wide open space keep things from getting claustrophobic. Museum of the American Revolution is much better off where it is.

If anything I'd maybe make room for food trucks, add more temporary seating, etc. In the end though it would all be stuff that could be easily moved to clear space when needed for a big event.

I definitely would not do anything to the block bounded by chestnut, walnut, 5th and 6th as you suggest. That space has been open land throughout all of Philadelphia's history and is a great public space despite the restrictions inherent in being located next to a high security historic site.

That said, I totally agree the National Park has way too much open space. The two blocks bounded by chestnut and walnut, 5th and 3rd are filled with open space that unlike the mall is basically never used appropriately. A lot of it is also walled off from the street and is just incredibly unurban. Restaurants, retail, even residences. I think all can be considered there and they should fill in the vast majority of the open space in these two blocks.
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  #977  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2018, 3:14 PM
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What does any of this have to do with Schuylkill Yards?
What he said.
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  #978  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2018, 6:41 PM
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If we're going back in time, there's no way I'd destroy all those buildings, but now that it exists, there's no denying it can be an asset.
That's exactly how I see it as well.
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  #979  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2018, 7:06 PM
JurassicPhilly JurassicPhilly is offline
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Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64 View Post
The Second Bank still has a portrait gallery, and it's free. I'd actually recommend it. It's not very big, but it's interesting.



My 91 year old uncle told me that when he came back from WWII, there were adult bookstores across from Independence Hall.
Now that's freedom baby! Yeaaaaah! Franklin would have stopped in after the signing if it had been there in 1776. Of course Washington would have avoided such an ungentlemanly establishment at all costs.
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  #980  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2018, 10:58 PM
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Now that's freedom baby! Yeaaaaah! Franklin would have stopped in after the signing if it had been there in 1776. Of course Washington would have avoided such an ungentlemanly establishment at all costs.
Wrong. Washington would have used the back door. Or used Amazon to have his goodies delivered.
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