Columbus Is Firing On All Cylinders Demographically, Economically, & Culturally - Page 3

Centropolis · #41 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 5:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by goat314

Indy did the right thing unifying it's government like Nashville and Louisville. St. Louis is one of the only large midland metros that didn't do this and it's been to it's detriment. No doubt that St. Louis lost out to a lot of nearby metros because of it's corrupt government structure.

yes, another layer to this.

Steely Dan · #42 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 5:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

Indy basically made a gamble to put all of it's eggs in the downtown basket (really doesn't have the level of legacy institutions of other older nearby regions) and I think it was 100% the right move for Indy.

totally.

indy went all-in on downtown because, relative to its peers, that's all indy really had to work with from an urbanism standpoint, and it worked.

the bones of indy's neighborhood urbanism (to the limited extent that it exists) are the absolute weakest out of the midwest's large metros.

Crawford · #43 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 6:06 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by goat314

Indy did the right thing unifying it's government like Nashville and Louisville. St. Louis is one of the only large midland metros that didn't do this and it's been to it's detriment. No doubt that St. Louis lost out to a lot of nearby metros because of it's corrupt government structure.

I'm not sure if this is true. Memphis has consolidated schools and many services with its county, alongside huge annexation, yet is the poorest U.S. metro and totally stagnant. Indy metro is barely growing.

I think there's a general correlation/causation problem with consolidation success stories. They tend to be in the SE, which has generally had the fastest U.S. growth since Great Depression, so consolidation looks good.

St. Louis has tiny city limits, so gentrification may have a noticeable impact on city politics/demographics/land use planning over time. Part of the reason that Boston, DC and SF look so successful compared to say, Philly is because they have smaller boundaries, largely exempting the "dull grey zones" referenced by J. Jacobs.

Also, St. Louis isn't likely to get a Doug Ford-type mayorality; the aggrieved types are long gone.

Steely Dan · #44 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 6:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

Indy metro is barely growing.

huh?

relative to its midwest peers, metro indy has had pretty decent growth over the past 7 years.

2010-2017 MSA growth for midwest metros over 500,000:

des moines: 13.39% (SC)
columbus 9.29% (SC + FU)
madison: 8.06% (SC + FU)
omaha: 7.85%
twin cities: 7.52% (SC + FU)

indianapolis: 7.45% (SC)
grand rapids: 7.10%
kansas city: 5.95%
cincinnati: 3.05%
wichita: 2.33%

milwaukee: 1.31%
chicago: 0.76%
st. louis: 0.70%
dayton: 0.52%
detroit: 0.39%

akron: 0.04%
cleveland: -0.89%
toledo: -1.04%
youngstown: -4.21%

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...tistical_areas

Crawford · #45 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 6:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

huh?

relative to its midwest peers, metro indy has had pretty decent growth over the past 7 years.

But that growth has slowed down considerably in recent years.

Indy was growing quickly in the early part of this decade; now not so much. In contrast, Columbus has maintained growth.

aderwent · #46 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 7:12 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crawford

But that growth has slowed down considerably in recent years.

Indy was growing quickly in the early part of this decade; now not so much. In contrast, Columbus has maintained growth.

Columbus:

2011: +24,168
2012: +20,502
2013: +24,476
2014: +27,340
2015: +24,738
2016: +23,779
2017: +31,748

Indianapolis:

2011: +22,552
2012: +18,557
2013: +24,227
2014: +17,637
2015: +16,022
2016: +18,740
2017: +23,002

Columbus has been more steady, but hard to say Indianapolis has slowed down. They could go either way next year it seems. Columbus on the other hand seems to be underestimated. Some of their zip code and census tract estimates from ACSs are mind boggling. For instance, 43215, the downtown zip code, has been estimated to have gained only 1,532 residents from 2010-2017. This should easily be +4,000. I think the 2017 estimate of +31,748 might be due to them correcting their math for Columbus, but

toddguy · #47 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 8:16 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by aderwent

Columbus:

2011: +24,168
2012: +20,502
2013: +24,476
2014: +27,340
2015: +24,738
2016: +23,779
2017: +31,748

Indianapolis:

2011: +22,552
2012: +18,557
2013: +24,227
2014: +17,637
2015: +16,022
2016: +18,740
2017: +23,002

Columbus has been more steady, but hard to say Indianapolis has slowed down. They could go either way next year it seems. Columbus on the other hand seems to be underestimated. Some of their zip code and census tract estimates from ACSs are mind boggling. For instance, 43215, the downtown zip code, has been estimated to have gained only 1,532 residents from 2010-2017. This should easily be +4,000. I think the 2017 estimate of +31,748 might be due to them correcting their math for Columbus, but

Indy growth at the city/county level is what puzzles me.

1970 with consolidation at 361 square miles: 744,000
47 years later, at 361 square miles: 863,000

That is only a growth of less than 150,000, and at 361 square miles.

Columbus in 1970 with something like 170 square miles: 540,000
Columbus 47 years later, with about 217 square miles: 880,000

So Columbus has added over 300,000 people in the city limits, but with an area two thirds the size of Indy. I don't get why Indy does not have a larger population given it's area.

Did consolidation drive more of the growth out of Marion County? I don't really get it?

Steely Dan · #48 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 8:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by toddguy

I don't get why Indy does not have a larger population given it's area.

it's a remarkably low density city.

it might just be the least dense major city in the nation. it does not even contain a single census tract over 10,000ppsm.

while columbus isn't exactly a manhattan, or even a chicago, in the density game, it has a decidedly more dense housing pattern than indy. just about all major US cities do.

census tract density maps:

columbus:

indy:

JManc · #49 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 8:22 PM**

To me, Indy reminded me of a small Chicago...without a lake. Columbus, an Austin without Texas growing around it.

suburbanite · #50 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 8:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc

To me, Indy reminded me of a small Chicago...without a lake. Columbus, an Austin without Texas growing around it.

Agreed accept for the German village, which to me appears like it could be the most Northeastern-looking (specifically New England) neighbourhood in the entire Midwest.

Steely Dan · #51 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 8:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Agreed accept for the German village, which to me appears like it could be the most Northeastern-looking (specifically New England) neighbourhood in the entire Midwest.

i would vote OTR as the most NE-looking urban neighborhood in the midwest.

OTR is a national treasure.

but german village is super-cool and a pretty rare typology in the midwest.

Centropolis · #52 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 8:53 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by suburbanite

Agreed accept for the German village, which to me appears like it could be the most Northeastern-looking (specifically New England) neighbourhood in the entire Midwest.

The scale and materials look pretty first-wave (midland) midwestern:

Columbus:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9507...7i13312!8i6656

St. Louis:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6068...7i13312!8i6656

Northern Kentucky:
https://goo.gl/maps/snRrjQPFXSq

Vlajos · #53 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 8:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JManc

To me, Indy reminded me of a small Chicago...without a lake. Columbus, an Austin without Texas growing around it.

What about it? It has almost nothing in common other than it's flat. Most of Indy looks like suburban sprawl and it's downtown is tiny with little foot traffic.

JManc · #54 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 8:57 PM**

Houston's flat too. That doesn't mean it resembles either city. There were aspects of Indy that reminded me of Chicago. The downtown area, some of the neighborhoods and the vibe.

suburbanite · #55 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 9:26 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

The scale and materials look pretty first-wave (midland) midwestern:

Columbus:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9507...7i13312!8i6656

St. Louis:
https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6068...7i13312!8i6656

Northern Kentucky:
https://goo.gl/maps/snRrjQPFXSq

Ya architecturally or in terms of urban scale you wouldn't confuse it with Philadelphia or Beacon Hill. I think it was the cobbled streets that gave me that vibe. Never been though, just been browsing on google maps after reading this thread.

Centropolis · #56 Posted **Dec 20, 2018, 9:45 PM**

the landscaping and maintenance in german village appears to be spectacular compared to its counterparts in other midwestern cities.

James Bond Agent 007 · #57 Posted **Dec 21, 2018, 12:25 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Centropolis

At the same time, i'm not sure that i would want a combination like that leaching from KC and St. Louis, as those kinds of cities tend to draw heavily from statewide or semi-regionally. At least St. Louis is (barely) maintaining regional population growth right now..we shed enough people to KC and global Chicago as is.

Personally I think it would be cool if Missouri had 3 big cities instead of just 2. It would be more like Ohio.

Centropolis · #58 Posted **Dec 21, 2018, 2:27 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

Personally I think it would be cool if Missouri had 3 big cities instead of just 2. It would be more like Ohio.

springfield actually has a decent downtown with more congruous pre-war urban fabric than austin (i used to stop over there on my way to sxsw and watch bands that were also on their way). its also on a plateau like atlanta and is a bit cooler in summer and warmer in winter than st. louis and kc. always thought it had potential. it seems like it has sort of sputtered... i’d have thought the metro would be over a million by now.

James Bond Agent 007 · #59 Posted **Dec 21, 2018, 3:03 AM**

Well, if Columbia and Jefferson City were next to each other (or Mizzou were in JC), that would be like the Columbus.

St Louis would be sort-of like the Cleveland, and KC would be sort-of like the Cincinnati.

Springfield could be like the Toledo.

Centropolis · #60 Posted **Dec 21, 2018, 3:33 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Bond Agent 007

Well, if Columbia and Jefferson City were next to each other (or Mizzou were in JC), that would be like the Columbus.

St Louis would be sort-of like the Cleveland, and KC would be sort-of like the Cincinnati.

Springfield could be like the Toledo.

branson would be cincinnati i think

*drops mic*