44 W Monroe

[PHX31]

One isolated incident is completely different... those gang members eventually would be in jail and/or killed and would not be allowed to keep the house. ... and obviously I would feel the same way for those people as everyone else.

But that one incident is no where near survival of the fittest. If there were millions of gangs and gang members doing that, and that is what a society had become, and that way was able to change the course of history, then that's that. Nothing you could do about it (I'm sure in the mean time, everyone who didn't want to be like that society would try to prevent it though). (I think everyone sees the similarities of actual history... although I don't know if the white man raped every indian woman they came across as they were conquering or purchasing land.... and I don't know if dinosaurs raped other dinosaurs, etc..)

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Originally Posted by ForAteOh

So if someone on this board told you about a man who had his house broken into by a gang that raped and murdered his wife and forced the man out of his home, claiming it as their own, would you dismiss it saying "Oh well, that's life - it's unfortunate but it's survival of the fittest"? Or to use phx native 929's arguement, "Well, what should the gang have done? Claim that the couple had dibs on the house and leave the neighborhood never to return?"

Examples don't get more ludicrous than this one.

Let's be clear on the obvious here: Rape=bad. Murder=Bad.

My point is that if you expected these Europeans to turn around from this CONTINENT of seemingly unlimited resources in the 1400s-1700s, then you live in fantasy land. Criticizing CERTAIN forefathers of ours who were blatantly immoral is fine. Expecting them to have not settled here is a fairy tale. Don't ever forget that.

-PhxNative

[Sekkle]

I'm using the one incident as an analogy and did not mention what would have happened with the police because it is irrelevant to the fact that the incident happened. The couple was not fit enough to survive the gang's home invasion.

So if you don't like that analogy, consider that survival of the fittest was used to justify National Socialism in Germany. I'm not arguing against natural selection as a theory (and of course the Nazis were defeated). I'm saying there are moral problems with being so dismissive and using survival of the fittest as the basis of your attitude toward the slaughter of innocent human beings.

[Don B.]

A few pics showing 44 Monroe's impact on the skyline from today. It is noticeable:









--don

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Originally Posted by Daltnpapi4u

Now are we all trying to act like the Bush administration in here? lol

So is it wrong that the Mexicans/Central Americans that are slowing coming all over the U.S.A. illegally? I mean they are just doing what the current occupants did with the Native Americans. Slowly come in and make their presence known.




HILLARY for PRESIDENT!!!!!

Absurd. You think the current state of affairs then and now are comparable?

Remind me which laws the Europeans were breaking by sailing over and staying?

The illegal immigrant issue is a complex issue. Only by the grace of God was I born into such an amazing country (the USA). I'm the first to admit that if I was born in Mexico, I'd be the first in line trying to cross that border every day to find a better opportunity/way of life for my family. Now, that being said, once arrived, I'd go through the lengthy process of legalization. That's right, that means learning the language and paying taxes.

It's a burden on the rest of society to have illegals come in and fail to contribute to the tax system.

[Sekkle]

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929

My point is that if you expected these Europeans to turn around from this CONTINENT of seemingly unlimited resources in the 1400s-1700s, then you live in fantasy land. Criticizing CERTAIN forefathers of ours who were blatantly immoral is fine. Expecting them to have not settled here is a fairy tale. Don't ever forget that.

Where did I say I expected them not to settle here? Because I said "it was the only logical thing to do"? I was taking issue with the idea you seemed to be putting forth of "it was theirs for the taking." The moral implications of this type of thinking don't make me comfortable. But if I read you wrong, sorry. Also, the "don't ever forget that" was Don, not me. But I won't forget that it is a fairy tale to expect something that happened hundreds of years ago to not have happened. Thanks.

[Sekkle]

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929

Remind me which laws the Europeans were breaking by sailing over and staying?

So if only Native Americans had had laws on the books about citizenship, things would have been different.

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929

It's a burden on the rest of society to have illegals come in and fail to contribute to the tax system.

I know, I wonder why they only have sales tax for legal US citizens, and why do undocummented workers not have income tax deducted from their paychecks? That's weird.

[BA744PHX]

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929

Absurd. You think the current state of affairs then and now are comparable?

Remind me which laws the Europeans were breaking by sailing over and staying?

The illegal immigrant issue is a complex issue. Only by the grace of God was I born into such an amazing country (the USA). I'm the first to admit that if I was born in Mexico, I'd be the first in line trying to cross that border every day to find a better opportunity/way of life for my family. Now, that being said, once arrived, I'd go through the lengthy process of legalization. That's right, that means learning the language and paying taxes.

It's a burden on the rest of society to have illegals come in and fail to contribute to the tax system.

In which I know some personally that were in the process only to be held up by the Bush administration and lets face it Arpaio's ego doesnt help much of the situation. I am not for so many people coming here illegally. Doesn't matter who they are or where they are coming from.. but who are we to punish them for doing what your ancestors envisioned when coming here? They want a better life and will do what they can to get it... just like all Europeans when settlement started.... the only difference is the Native Americans and most of Latin America have something in common that the Europeans would never have... they are all Indians but different tribes... Also most of the illegals that are here do pay taxes if you go to azcentral.com you can browse threw articles about many of them saying they pay taxes only to hope it will help them get citizenship.

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Originally Posted by ForAteOh

So if only Native Americans had had laws on the books about citizenship, things would have been different.



I know, I wonder why they only have sales tax for legal US citizens, and why do undocummented workers not have income tax deducted from their paychecks? That's weird.

What about those paid with cash? What about social security taxes and a host of other issues? Again, I'd be the first trying to cross the border, but they MUST be required to go through the legalization process (no matter how lengthy and irritating our currently flawed system is). Do you not admit that illegal immigration contributes to major problems with: Health Care, Education, National Security, Identity Theft, Law Enforcement costs, and even Environmental issues??? Just to name a few.

Bottom line. Europeans should NOT have been expected to make a U-turn and never return. And if you think that the Native Americans would still peacefully be in control of "their own land" had the Europeans simply gone home for good, then I have some beachfront property in Ajo that I'd love to sell you.

[PHX31]

Love 44 Monroe, I can't wait until OCPE starts making an impact on the skyline as well... It's impact may be even bigger given its location.

[BA744PHX]

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929

What about those paid with cash? What about social security taxes and a host of other issues? Again, I'd be the first trying to cross the border, but they MUST be required to go through the legalization process (no matter how lengthy and irritating our currently flawed system is). Do you not admit that illegal immigration contributes to major problems with: Health Care, Education, National Security, Identity Theft, Law Enforcement costs, and even Environmental issues??? Just to name a few.

Bottom line. Europeans should NOT have been expected to make a U-turn and never return. And if you think that the Native Americans would still peacefully be in control of "their own land" had the Europeans simply gone home for good, then I have some beachfront property in Ajo that I'd love to sell you.

I bet your a Arpaio supporter arent you? enough said if you are lol

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Love 44 Monroe, I can't wait until OCPE starts making an impact on the skyline as well... It's impact may be even bigger given its location.

OCPE will have an awesome impact...just as good or maybe better as 44 Monroe. Both of them help to fill gaps int he perfect place...44 Monroe between US Bank and Chase and OCPE between Chase and Sheraton. It will really help bring the cluster of Sheraton/AZ Center buildings together with the rest of downtown...right now they are sort of isolated.

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Originally Posted by Daltnpapi4u

I bet your a Arpaio supporter arent you? enough said if you are lol

I mean, are you serious with a post like this?

Aside from your spelling errors, failed sentence structure, ignorant assumptions about my feelings on Arpaio, unwillingness to legitimately debate the issues, and your junior highish "lol" to wrap it up, that was a fantastic post. Way to keep it constructive.

[BA744PHX]

Originally Posted by PHX NATIVE 929

I mean, are you serious with a post like this?

Aside from your spelling errors, failed sentence structure, ignorant assumptions about my feelings on Arpaio, unwillingness to legitimately debate the issues, and your junior highish "lol" to wrap it up, that was a fantastic post. Way to keep it constructive.

This is a forum and I'am not obligated to speEElll right or to umpress you with mi inglish F** OFF!! LOL LOL LOL

but the most important thing is I am probably right about you.. go back to the midwest you white trash!!!!!

say hi to billy bob joe jane for me

oh gawd im sounding like JV now!!! no offense JV

[PHX31]

/\ Nice Ad Hominem, Daltn

[PHX NATIVE 929]

Originally Posted by Daltnpapi4u

This is a forum and I'am not obligated to speEElll right or to umpress you with mi inglish F** OFF!! LOL LOL LOL

but the most important thing is I am probably right about you.. go back to the midwest you white trash!!!!!

say hi to billy bob joe jane for me

oh gawd im sounding like JV now!!! no offense JV

It's so great when true colors are revealed. Your racism and cluelessness are astounding. Why am I not surprised you're voting for Hillary? You're banking on her raising my taxes to make up for your mediocrity.

[Vicelord John]

Originally Posted by Daltnpapi4u

This is a forum and I'am not obligated to speEElll right or to umpress you with mi inglish F** OFF!! LOL LOL LOL

but the most important thing is I am probably right about you.. go back to the midwest you white trash!!!!!

say hi to billy bob joe jane for me

oh gawd im sounding like JV now!!! no offense JV

nice usage of the trailer park references.

[Tfom]

I will gladly have a civil debate about the pro's and cons of illegal immigration (From what would be called a liberal viewpoint) with someone in pm. I have done my best to research the topic and would be glad to hear a different viewpoint.

[SunDevil]

Nice pics Don.

[Edifice]

For the guys fighting and name calling about politics, etc., this site is for discussions about skyscrapers. Keep that crap off this board!