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  #81  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2014, 4:01 AM
Derek Derek is offline
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If you value your parking so much, move to a building that has on site parking and pay for it, or move to the suburbs. Problem solved.
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  #82  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2014, 8:01 AM
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Originally Posted by maccoinnich View Post
Serious question: if you object to this proposal, why are you telling us about it, and not the Bureau of Development Services? I've just read the staff report [PDF, 3MB], which recommends approval, and at the time of publication no written comments had been received.


I haven't submitted any written comments, but I am planning on attending the Design Commission hearing on the 11th with a good number of stats surrounding the issue. As for the comment about moving to the Burbs or into a building with paid parking, I'll make the statement that I do pay for parking on the street, $80 a year for a Zone B pass.

I'll also make the statement that holding a belief that the parking impacts on a neighborhood are important to consider isn't innately reactionary or NIMBYism, and that immediately declaring that I need to move because I care about the impacts this specific project will bring is somewhat ridiculous. The kneejerk orthodoxy of no-parking development doesn't fit every site, and I think it's lazy design work to think otherwise. I support the carless approach to development in areas of the city where bicycling or walking are well supported, and I also support the various anti-car policies of the City of Portland, such as congestion as a method to reduce the desirability of driving, but there are times where the parkingless approach is flawed. I would argue that this is one of those times.

The limited onstreet parking on Jefferson and the side streets provide for four groups of people; The people living here in a number of fairly dense apartment buildings and converted multifamily houses, the Lincoln High students who otherwise only have a small parking lot that I believe is mainly available to staff, attendees of games at Jeld-Wen (or whatever its currently called), and a good number of PSU students that have illegally bought yearly parking passes to avoid the $400 a term PSU parking costs. All these groups are fighting over on street parking that doesn't extend more than a block off of Jefferson/Columbia and covers less than half of the street frontage.

The new development doesn't want to put in any parking, and even if only a quarter of the units (16 residents) had a car, that would still occupy almost every single zoned parking spot on Jefferson between 14th and 16th. How is this even remotely fair to the residents that are already here? As I said in my earlier post, the parking is already incredibly sparse on a good day and requires a multiblock walk whenever school is in session or there's a game at the stadium, which happens often. The site is well suited to an onsite parking solution, with an existing driveway at the lowest grade and a steep topography which would allow the units ground level entry from the sidewalk. It seems fairly clear that the developers are not including it because it complicates the design and initial sitework, but the impacts are too great to just take the easy route. And if the design doesn't pencil out, then perhaps the architect should rethink it.

Just as a last note, I wanted to mention that I'm pretty well versed in the urban design of Portland and I studied Architecture at PSU. I grew up in the city and have been on two Neighborhood Association boards, specifically dealing with design issues. The only reason I have a car is because I'm a small business owner and I have to drive all around the Metro area for deliveries. I'm commonly considered among those in my community as an advocate for mass transit, bicycling and a dense urban fabric. It's just the case that I feel like this specific development has a single important flaw in it, and it will have significant detrimental effects on the neighborhood's livability.
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  #83  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2014, 8:39 AM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is online now
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Originally Posted by GreenCity View Post
I support the carless approach to development in areas of the city where bicycling or walking are well supported
1450 SW Jefferson St is walking distance from PSU and Downtown. The street has a bike lane on it, and is served by TriMet lines 6, 45, 55, 58 and 68. It's a couple blocks walk to the nearest MAX station, which is served by the Blue and Red lines. The streetcar is a couple blocks walk in the other direction. If this is an inappropriate location for a building without parking, I don't know where in America an appropriate location would be.

You mention in your previous post that the site was zoned CXd in the 1980s, as if that was some kind of accident. It isn't. To be clear: this is exactly the kind of development the City encourages.

Also, if you studied architecture and familiar with how developments are approved in Portland, you should already know that the Bureau of Development Services / Design Commission can only review an application on the basis of the approval criteria set out in the Zoning Code. Parking is not one of the approval criteria for this project. Because the Zoning Code doesn't require parking they would actually be setting the city up for a lawsuit if they were to deny the project on the basis of a lack of parking.
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Last edited by maccoinnich; Dec 8, 2014 at 8:50 AM.
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  #84  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2014, 9:30 PM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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Interesting. TVA does pretty nice work, I have high hopes for it. Looks like they are taking design cues from some of the midcentury modern midrise apartment buildings in Goose Hollow. The ones that caused massive neighborhood backlash in the years after they were built. (ha)

The small footprint of the building would make parking challenging, I would think.
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  #85  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2014, 9:35 PM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is online now
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FWIW, I put up some images and floorplans of the building here.

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  #86  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2014, 10:11 PM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
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Originally Posted by maccoinnich View Post
1450 SW Jefferson St is walking distance from PSU and Downtown. The street has a bike lane on it, and is served by TriMet lines 6, 45, 55, 58 and 68. It's a couple blocks walk to the nearest MAX station, which is served by the Blue and Red lines. The streetcar is a couple blocks walk in the other direction. If this is an inappropriate location for a building without parking, I don't know where in America an appropriate location would be.

You mention in your previous post that the site was zoned CXd in the 1980s, as if that was some kind of accident. It isn't. To be clear: this is exactly the kind of development the City encourages.

Also, if you studied architecture and familiar with how developments are approved in Portland, you should already know that the Bureau of Development Services / Design Commission can only review an application on the basis of the approval criteria set out in the Zoning Code. Parking is not one of the approval criteria for this project. Because the Zoning Code doesn't require parking they would actually be setting the city up for a lawsuit if they were to deny the project on the basis of a lack of parking.
Thank you for this! I'm honestly pretty tired of the west hills and surrounds whining about density happening close to them. Your neighborhood is smack on downtown. This is exactly where this type of development should go. I love the way the building looks too.

Just a further comment, I think this is why we end up with stubby buildings and bland design in Portland. There is a very virulent undercurrent of influential money in Portland, and I think it really adheres to an old school thought process that has nothing to do with multimodality or transit oriented development. It's a mindset that is so entitled as to believe they possess parking and whatever commute route for their car they have declared theirs. I am always suspicious when I see too much open space in a design claiming to add density. Maybe, I've gotten hypervigilant, ha.
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  #87  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2014, 11:46 PM
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I didn't really expect this forum to create such an aggressive response to an opinion, especially since I feel like it was a fairly tempered one. I never said that the project should be denied, I very clearly stated that my only issue with it is that I feel there's going to be significant disruption due to this one aspect of design. There's already a pre-existing problem with parking in this area and this will do nothing but exasperate it. Do you feel like there shouldn't be any parking involved in any developments within the core downtown area? I believe that a dogmatic no-parking stance is an unfortunate choice in this location in specific, despite it being well served by other transportation options.

As for the statement "There is a very virulent undercurrent of influential money in Portland, and I think it really adheres to an old school thought process that has nothing to do with multimodality or transit oriented development.", I have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. What is the source of this powerful undercurrent of influential money? The Schnitzers? In what way are they interfering with the process of architectural design? Most of the big money in town now are modernist tech folk and developers. The main stop block for most of the more interesting design work is Design Review and the neighborhood associations, not some deep pocketed individual pulling strings. The foundation of Portland's successes in transit and planning have come in conjunction with those people, not despite them. Also, your statement about "too much open space" is ridiculous and dangerous. Most of the city desires a variance in streetscape and not an urban canyon anywhere you go. Different parts of the city have different character to them, and that should be taken into account with new buildings.

I'm sure this project will be built, and I'm generally happy about it. I do understand Design Reviews and how they function, and no, that wasn't a real point of curriculum at PSU. I'm going as a citizen who has been studying the historic development of Goose Hollow, which is not "The West Hills", and feel like I want to make my statement about a flaw in design for this development. Being familiar with the site, I'm positive that underground parking is possible, but I know it would increase construction costs. The overwhelming impression I'm getting is that this impact is being ignored by the developers, and I would feel remiss if I didn't at least make the statement.
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  #88  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2014, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by GreenCity View Post
Being familiar with the site, I'm positive that underground parking is possible, but I know it would increase construction costs.
It's also possible for Boeing to build planes that have room for vehicles so that you'd have your car when you travel, but it would increase the cost of flying to the point where no one could afford it, which is why no airlines would buy those planes in the first place.

Is it possible to include underground parking at this site in Goose Hollow? I'd assume so, but that's just an assumption. If underground parking were a requirement, it would increase costs to the point where this wouldn't be built. Most of these apartments are under 400 square feet. If they were building 2 bedroom condos, then yeah, there would be a need for parking. But 380 square foot studios are likely to attract car free urbanites.

Elliot Tower and Cornerstone Condominiums, which is diagonally across from the Elliot on Jefferson downtown, are perfect examples of one that needs underground parking and one that doesn't. This "Jefferson 14" is more like the Cornerstone Condos building.

We have to move past this idea that every apartment needs a parking space or two. In the suburbs, yes. Downtown or as close in as Goose Hollow? No.
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  #89  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2014, 2:30 PM
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We have to move past this idea that every apartment needs a parking space or two. In the suburbs, yes. Downtown or as close in as Goose Hollow? No.
Ditto. I've lived in and worked for cities where parking requirements result in awful designs centered around the parking requirement and not around making the development livable and respectful of it's urban design surroundings. I don't think anyone should expect to rely on street parking in the central city. Pay for it, or get used to the inconvenience.

I feel like this conversation of whether to provide parking is stale and has been covered already. Central city - hell no. Rest of Portland - maybe a little bit, but not necessarily.
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  #90  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2014, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GreenCity View Post
Being familiar with the site, I'm positive that underground parking is possible, but I know it would increase construction costs. The overwhelming impression I'm getting is that this impact is being ignored by the developers, and I would feel remiss if I didn't at least make the statement.
In a similar building I built within the last decade, pricing for underground parking was estimated to cost $40,000 per stall. This was the construction cost, and not the cost to tenants purchasing the spots. Underground parking is almost always possible, but I think that it would be easy to see that even if the developer provided one quarter of the residents with parking spots it would cost over $600,000. It haven't seen too many buildings with a 1:4 parking ratio, if parking is provided most provide much more.

On a project of this scale, margins can be thin and those dollars could make the difference.
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  #91  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2014, 11:47 PM
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In a similar building I built within the last decade, pricing for underground parking was estimated to cost $40,000 per stall. This was the construction cost, and not the cost to tenants purchasing the spots. Underground parking is almost always possible, but I think that it would be easy to see that even if the developer provided one quarter of the residents with parking spots it would cost over $600,000. It haven't seen too many buildings with a 1:4 parking ratio, if parking is provided most provide much more.

On a project of this scale, margins can be thin and those dollars could make the difference.
holy crap, batman! $40k per spot? last figures I've heard were around $24k, but that was pre-recession (2008-ish). I'm having serious difficulty believing that it has now doubled in cost. unless you're double dipping into the excavation that would have to happen (albeit considerably less) for the building foundation.
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  #92  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 12:46 AM
mmeade mmeade is offline
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Originally Posted by eric cantona View Post
holy crap, batman! $40k per spot? last figures I've heard were around $24k, but that was pre-recession (2008-ish). I'm having serious difficulty believing that it has now doubled in cost. unless you're double dipping into the excavation that would have to happen (albeit considerably less) for the building foundation.
I've seen estimates that say 30,000 per space in an above ground garage, and 50,000 for a below ground garage. My specific project paid about 40,000 per spot below ground. This was in 2008 or so.

It all depends on how you do it, and how efficient your space is. Extra costs can include extra elevator stops, extra excavation, extra ventilation, etc. No matter how you cut it though, underground parking comes with a serious price tag.
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  #93  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 6:16 AM
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Originally Posted by eric cantona View Post
holy crap, batman! $40k per spot? last figures I've heard were around $24k, but that was pre-recession (2008-ish). I'm having serious difficulty believing that it has now doubled in cost. unless you're double dipping into the excavation that would have to happen (albeit considerably less) for the building foundation.
Several architects I know have said that $30k-$40k per structured parking unit (basically part of the building, not a surface spot) is standard for an urban project. On the west coast due to earthquake rules it's usually on the higher end.

The $24k/spot I've usually seen in reference to surface parking spaces in a city center.

For my own opinion, I don't see why anyone has a right to on street parking. If you want convenient parking you should have bought/rented a place with parking. I've given up a parking spot that came with an apartment to save $90/mo in San Diego. I can walk a few blocks to save $90/mo for a place to leave my car. It's not a dog, I can leave a car outside in strange place for a night.

It's public parking. Are we going to start assigning parking rights like water rights? If having a parking spot is important then live in a place with adequate parking for your needs.
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  #94  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 6:00 PM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
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For my own opinion, I don't see why anyone has a right to on street parking. If you want convenient parking you should have bought/rented a place with parking. I've given up a parking spot that came with an apartment to save $90/mo in San Diego. I can walk a few blocks to save $90/mo for a place to leave my car. It's not a dog, I can leave a car outside in strange place for a night.

It's public parking. Are we going to start assigning parking rights like water rights? If having a parking spot is important then live in a place with adequate parking for your needs.
I could not agree with you more. We must divorce the idea that someone in a single family home neighborhood owns their street front. Or the air surrounding their house. It's about presumed and overstepped individual property rights causing actual harm and lack of development in a community.
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  #95  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 6:26 PM
mmeade mmeade is offline
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I could not agree with you more. We must divorce the idea that someone in a single family home neighborhood owns their street front. Or the air surrounding their house. It's about presumed and overstepped individual property rights causing actual harm and lack of development in a community.
I agree. In this situation, we have a resident with no parking complaining about adding additional residents with no parking. The mindset is, "I was here first, this parking is mine!"

The only way to control parking is to have it on your property.

I have a friend who lives near Division street. When I asked her thoughts on the additional parking woes, she told me that it wasn't a problem. She has a driveway, and her family only has one car. She does however feel bad for neighbors that do not have driveways because they suffer the same parking woes GreenCity fears.
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  #96  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 9:02 PM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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I agree. In this situation, we have a resident with no parking complaining about adding additional residents with no parking. The mindset is, "I was here first, this parking is mine!"

The only way to control parking is to have it on your property.

I have a friend who lives near Division street. When I asked her thoughts on the additional parking woes, she told me that it wasn't a problem. She has a driveway, and her family only has one car. She does however feel bad for neighbors that do not have driveways because they suffer the same parking woes GreenCity fears.
Yeah, thats the way to do it. Kind of like in Japan, where typically a tiny house may have a tiny driveway with a tiny car. Although they sometimes go crazy with robotic parking.


pic from some random dude on vacation in Japan [link]


This makes me feel that the pro-parking argument proponents haven't realized how truly ugly accommodating parking is.
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  #97  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 9:08 PM
PDXDENSITY PDXDENSITY is offline
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
Yeah, thats the way to do it. Kind of like in Japan, where typically a tiny house may have a tiny driveway with a tiny car. Although they sometimes go crazy with robotic parking.


pic from some random dude on vacation in Japan [link]


This makes me feel that the pro-parking argument proponents haven't realized how truly ugly accommodating parking is.
That is hideous, but the Japanese have a flare for spreading the ugly thinly enough that it seems like novelty. I'd sit there and watch that parking robot... I'm not ashamed to admit.

Anyway, the fact that a damn huge robot is needed should make it clear parking is an abject luxury in a city, not a right.
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  #98  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 10:19 PM
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Anyway, the fact that a damn huge robot is needed should make it clear parking is an abject luxury in a city, not a right.
THIS. The whole driving thing absolutely amazes me. People treat it like a right, not a privilege. And laws more or less back up that ridiculous mindset. How many times can someone be busted for drunk driving before permanently losing a driver's license? Please.
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  #99  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2014, 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by eric cantona View Post
holy crap, batman! $40k per spot? last figures I've heard were around $24k, but that was pre-recession (2008-ish). I'm having serious difficulty believing that it has now doubled in cost. unless you're double dipping into the excavation that would have to happen (albeit considerably less) for the building foundation.
$40K per stall today (while very high) in this specific development scenario is quite a real possibility, for a myriad of reasons related to site (it's complex and single sided) and is small in scope. (Of note, yes I have direct experience with this design issue and no I don't work for TVA or Vic Remmers) Beyond that, we are in a period where we are seeing 3-5% escalation in costs....MONTHLY. It's nuts. So I can certainly see $35-$40K a stall right now.

It appears by the floorplan, that they are targeting students. I can see why they opted to forego the parking. A more viable project, and a user group that may not drive much.

For those that have issues with projects that do exclude parking, often it's due strictly to cost, and what that does to the project viability in the eyes of the group providing the capital risk. If the developer can afford to include it...they are usually ALL FOR IT. It typically sells itself.

But, this isn't Vic Remmer's first foray into price point multifamily development without parking. At least he hired Bob Thompson again...

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/i...s_reaches.html
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  #100  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2014, 8:11 PM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is online now
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To be pedantic, the issue isn't whether a Central City Parking Review is required - it is - but if it can be done concurrently with the zoning change, or should happen after.

Quote:
Goose Hollow apartment project put on hold for another month

The Portland City Council last week delayed a decision on a proposed zone change for a new apartment building and parking lot in the Goose Hollow neighborhood near the Multnomah Athletic Club.

The project, being put forward by Mill Creek Residential Trust and the MAC club, would build a 260-unit apartment building with 16 guest suites for club members. The project would include 191 parking spaces for residents and an additional 225 underground parking spaces for the MAC club, which would connect to the parking via an underground tunnel.

Neighbors in the Goose Hollow Foothills League neighborhood association have voted to oppose the project, which would require the rezoning of Block 7 from residential to commercial.

According to a release from GHFL, city commissioners were hesitant to approve the zone change before a Central City Parking Review had been completed. Certain parking projects in the city require the review to assess parking needs, though it wasn't entirely clear if such a review was needed for this proposal.
...continues at the Portland Business Journal.
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