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  #141  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:14 PM
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Donald Trump endorses Hillary Clinton:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R6JaeNduyFY
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  #142  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:15 PM
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Of course Trump is a flawed candidate. Perhaps the most flawed in a generation. But people support him because they believe he gets the major things correct.
More condescending BS from the Master.

Trump hasn't a plan; all he offers is anger and hatred. He hasn't any solution, except to say that only he can fix the problem. The fact that you willfully overlook his supreme arrogance and utter lack of substance is disingenuous to the highest order.

You really believe that I don't empathize with the casualties of globalization? You are way fucking out of line to imply this.

You still think that Trump is a "Breath of Fresh Air?" Or is it your inability to deal with the cognitive dissonance created by your earlier stance in the wake of all the disgusting nonsense that has spilled from the mouth of the Donald? Take your sanctimonious hectoring and shove it. You want to support a vile asshole like Trump? You deserve nothing but my scorn in return.
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  #143  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:16 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
Great post.
wow man. just wow. all that space wasted with nothing but hot air. Wait a minute: sounds just like Trump's platform.
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  #144  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
I imagine this is a pretty common sentiment, and what is striking to me is how it lacks empathy or any attempt whatsoever to see things from the other side of the aisle. It is an endemic attitude that is becoming more and more pervasive among politics, and reminds me heavily of the attitudes towards Stephen Harper. Chants of "there is no possible reason in the entire world to vote for this monster!", "if you support Harper you should be ashamed of yourself!", and similar sentiments trying to vilify even the thought of anyone having a political point of view different than your own.

Now, I don't expect many Canadians to be all that well educated on Trump, especially as most get their perspective on him through the eyes of the media. Many people outside America just like to point and laugh at American policies, spend very little time actually critically thinking about things, and can't wait to jump on the "those ridiculous Americans, look how stupid they are for voting for this guy!" bandwagon.

An important point is that people don't vote for a candidate for their flaws. Clinton, Harper, Trudeau, Trump. They are all flawed candidates. People vote for the candidate who gets the major things right.

People don't vote for Clinton because she used an email server and her campaign colluded to sabotage Sanders in the primaries. They vote for her because they generally want to see a continuation of Obama's policies.

People don't vote for Trudeau because of nepotism. They vote for him because they agreed with his platform.

That said, if people are actually interested in why Trump is so popular, I will try to explain in three reasons.

The biggest reason, I believe, is that this election is a referendum on free trade. It's important to note that Sanders was also loudly criticizing free trade, so Sanders and Trump actually have more in common than people like to pretend. For many, this is the number one economic issue and everything else is background noise. Economies in several states have been devastated by expanding trade, including notably Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, but it has affected every state in the country. Corporations, both large and small, have exploited lopsided trade deals to erode salaries, erode jobs, and have hung the sword of Damocles over state governments to operate virtually tax free by threatening to cut even more jobs.

Along with that, the massive outsourcing of labor to jurisdictions which have no minimum wage, low minimum wage, no worker protections, no unions, no health care has fueled unprecedented income inequality, such that the only individuals actually benefiting from these schemes are the owners of the companies, the executives who receive large bonuses for saving money by killing American jobs and outsourcing, and the people with enough money to invest in the stocks of these companies that continually outsource.

People are tired of it and desperately want to have a national conversation about free trade. It is also what made Sanders so popular. For many people, this is the signature issue of the election, and everything else is just background noise.

Another large reason I think Trump appeals to people is his foreign policy perspective. He talks in large strokes about this, but people are really tired of America's interventionist foreign policy, spending trillions of dollars on a myriad of wars. Foreign policy has been directed by Bush and Clinton administrations since 1988. People are desperate for a change of direction and Trump represents that change. This is an incredibly important aspect of the presidency that gets overlooked for sensationalized media distractions.

Finally, another large part of his appeal is that Trump represents being a political outsider. People may forget, but in 2008 Obama was largely elected on the platform of bringing change to government and being himself distanced from the establishment. Americans have been signalling for a long time they are tired of the status quo, and want a politician to stand up to corruption. Obama didn't really deliver that, but the popularity of both Sanders and Trump shows how much Americans desperately want to see this kind of change.

Of course Trump is a flawed candidate. Perhaps the most flawed in a generation. But people support him because they believe he gets the major things correct. And having this attitude that people who disagree with you should be ashamed of themselves, and trying to paint Trump as some incorrigible monster who would literally burn America to the ground is not only adding fuel to the fire of modern highly partisan political divisions, it is incredibly disrespectful to almost half the entire country that simply has a different political opinion than you.

Empathy. It's what is lacking in modern political conversations.
I don't agree with all of it but this is a thought-provoking post.

It's still really hard to see Trump as the standard-bearer for the "little guy" who's been dealt a raw deal by the post-modern world. (Who make up a large share of his supporters.)

I mean, he's such a maverick that I don't see him quipping "some people call you the élite, but I call you my base" to monied crowds in DC and NYC like W Bush did.

But it's still hard to believe he stands for a more just society that will benefit the people attending his rallies.

I mean... it's hard to tell just what he stands for.

His speeches are mostly filled with facile statements and solutions, peppered with angry outbursts - all of it designed to give frustrated or scared people exactly what they want to hear.
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  #145  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kwoldtimer View Post
I wondered about that the other day. On the other hand, Clinton supporters could have good reason to be discrete about their preference in some parts of the country. Overall, however, I think this is more likely to be a net benefit for Trump, if in fact it's real.
Especially since discreet Trump supporters are likely more educated, élite class people who are sensitive to what others would think of them if they know how they were voting.
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  #146  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:29 PM
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One fun aside - I forget which comedian said it, sorry, but: whoever wins tomorrow, the youngest generation of Americans are going to get their first white president.
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  #147  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geotag277 View Post
I imagine this is a pretty common sentiment, and what is striking to me is how it lacks empathy or any attempt whatsoever to see things from the other side of the aisle. It is an endemic attitude that is becoming more and more pervasive among politics, and reminds me heavily of the attitudes towards Stephen Harper. Chants of "there is no possible reason in the entire world to vote for this monster!", "if you support Harper you should be ashamed of yourself!", and similar sentiments trying to vilify even the thought of anyone having a political point of view different than your own.

Now, I don't expect many Canadians to be all that well educated on Trump, especially as most get their perspective on him through the eyes of the media. Many people outside America just like to point and laugh at American policies, spend very little time actually critically thinking about things, and can't wait to jump on the "those ridiculous Americans, look how stupid they are for voting for this guy!" bandwagon.

An important point is that people don't vote for a candidate for their flaws. Clinton, Harper, Trudeau, Trump. They are all flawed candidates. People vote for the candidate who gets the major things right.

People don't vote for Clinton because she used an email server and her campaign colluded to sabotage Sanders in the primaries. They vote for her because they generally want to see a continuation of Obama's policies.

People don't vote for Trudeau because of nepotism. They vote for him because they agreed with his platform.

That said, if people are actually interested in why Trump is so popular, I will try to explain in three reasons.

The biggest reason, I believe, is that this election is a referendum on free trade. It's important to note that Sanders was also loudly criticizing free trade, so Sanders and Trump actually have more in common than people like to pretend. For many, this is the number one economic issue and everything else is background noise. Economies in several states have been devastated by expanding trade, including notably Michigan, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, but it has affected every state in the country. Corporations, both large and small, have exploited lopsided trade deals to erode salaries, erode jobs, and have hung the sword of Damocles over state governments to operate virtually tax free by threatening to cut even more jobs.

Along with that, the massive outsourcing of labor to jurisdictions which have no minimum wage, low minimum wage, no worker protections, no unions, no health care has fueled unprecedented income inequality, such that the only individuals actually benefiting from these schemes are the owners of the companies, the executives who receive large bonuses for saving money by killing American jobs and outsourcing, and the people with enough money to invest in the stocks of these companies that continually outsource.

People are tired of it and desperately want to have a national conversation about free trade. It is also what made Sanders so popular. For many people, this is the signature issue of the election, and everything else is just background noise.

Another large reason I think Trump appeals to people is his foreign policy perspective. He talks in large strokes about this, but people are really tired of America's interventionist foreign policy, spending trillions of dollars on a myriad of wars. Foreign policy has been directed by Bush and Clinton administrations since 1988. People are desperate for a change of direction and Trump represents that change. This is an incredibly important aspect of the presidency that gets overlooked for sensationalized media distractions.

Finally, another large part of his appeal is that Trump represents being a political outsider. People may forget, but in 2008 Obama was largely elected on the platform of bringing change to government and being himself distanced from the establishment. Americans have been signalling for a long time they are tired of the status quo, and want a politician to stand up to corruption. Obama didn't really deliver that, but the popularity of both Sanders and Trump shows how much Americans desperately want to see this kind of change.

Of course Trump is a flawed candidate. Perhaps the most flawed in a generation. But people support him because they believe he gets the major things correct. And having this attitude that people who disagree with you should be ashamed of themselves, and trying to paint Trump as some incorrigible monster who would literally burn America to the ground is not only adding fuel to the fire of modern highly partisan political divisions, it is incredibly disrespectful to almost half the entire country that simply has a different political opinion than you.

Empathy. It's what is lacking in modern political conversations.

It may be lacking, and I agree that the condescension toward some Trump supporters by some Trump opponents has been unedifying, but it is hardly the only thing lacking in the political conversation. To talk about free trade without also discussing changing technology, global and national demographics, and broader geopolitical objectives would be a stunted discussion. More facts and figures, and fewer anecdotes, would also help the discussion. The political class has largely failed in addressing the changes that are taking place. The media seem to have abandoned education for entertainment.

As for foreign policy, the USA has drifted back and forth between engagement and isolationism since it was founded. Nothing new there, really, although the current choice seems more stark and abrupt than usual.
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  #148  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:32 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
wow man. just wow. all that space wasted with nothing but hot air. Wait a minute: sounds just like Trump's platform.
Well, obviously he could have been more concise, but the core point (which can be summed up as "there are enough people tired of the status quo that they'll vote for anti-establishment candidates even if those are really flawed") is very real.

Trump is merely a symptom, and even if he loses (which he very likely will), the cause is not going away.
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  #149  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
More condescending BS from the Master.

Trump hasn't a plan; all he offers is anger and hatred. He hasn't any solution, except to say that only he can fix the problem. The fact that you willfully overlook his supreme arrogance and utter lack of substance is disingenuous to the highest order.

You really believe that I don't empathize with the casualties of globalization? You are way fucking out of line to imply this.

You still think that Trump is a "Breath of Fresh Air?" Or is it your inability to deal with the cognitive dissonance created by your earlier stance in the wake of all the disgusting nonsense that has spilled from the mouth of the Donald? Take your sanctimonious hectoring and shove it. You want to support a vile asshole like Trump? You deserve nothing but my scorn in return.
Actually, he has policies, some of which are defensible. I agree that he has not spoken about them in adequate detail in the campaign. If he were a policy wonk and not whatever the heck he is, we might have seen a rather different campaign.
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  #150  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
It's still really hard to see Trump as the standard-bearer for the "little guy" who's been dealt a raw deal by the post-modern world. (Who make up a large share of his supporters.)
Yeah, as a billionaire himself, it's true he's definitely an unlikely standard-bearer. As I said though, I think anyone can be it, as long as you're anti-establishment enough.

Trump's big mistake was that he went too far to please his "base" of "deplorables". A more moderate approach would probably have served him (and the anti-trade, anti-intervention, etc. crowd) better.

Now, of course, some mistakes were eleven years in the making and couldn't be corrected, such as that leaked video of him not exactly being Presidential -- though, come to think of it, I'm not sure ex-President Bill would disagree, but that's another can of worms
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  #151  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:43 PM
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Yeah, as a billionaire himself, it's true he's definitely an unlikely standard-bearer. As I said though, I think anyone can be it, as long as you're anti-establishment enough.

Trump's big mistake was that he went too far to please his "base" of "deplorables". A more moderate approach would probably have served him (and the anti-trade, anti-intervention, etc. crowd) better.

Now, of course, some mistakes were eleven years in the making and couldn't be corrected, such as that leaked video of him not exactly being Presidential -- though, come to think of it, I'm not sure ex-President Bill would disagree, but that's another can of worms
The irony being not only that he's (allegedly, at the moment) a billionaire, but that he's the son of privilege who spent his entire life striving, not very successfully, to be accepted by the Establishment. I sometimes wonder whether his failure in that regard doesn't account for the resentments that seem to underpin much of what he says.

By the way, his children, or at least Ivanka, seem to be full-fledged members of the Establishment, so I guess the American Dream lives on!
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  #152  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 5:57 PM
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Al Jazeera is explaining in which states voters are allowed to take a ballot selfie.
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  #153  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 6:21 PM
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Now, of course, some mistakes were eleven years in the making and couldn't be corrected, such as that leaked video of him not exactly being Presidential -- though, come to think of it, I'm not sure ex-President Bill would disagree, but that's another can of worms

Personally I think things like throwing a tantrum on twitter in the middle of the night over any perceived insult are more telling of his mindset. He simply can't handle being wrong. Then there was the failed mission to Mexico where he wasn't even able to articulate one of his largest original promises (both literally and figuratively).
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  #154  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 6:32 PM
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The war with Donald Trump, according to Jon Stewart:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEEgplXwNWk
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  #155  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 6:41 PM
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Came here to say I am disturbed how biased the media has become. That is the bringer of instability, a broken media and the sheep that follow it.

Just came here to say that. As for the US, the person who was chosen to win will win. They had their black guy and now they get a women and then at some point they will get someone with a Hispanic back ground etc.. Politics and democracy is a game.

https://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/pdf/...n_english_.pdf
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  #156  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 7:22 PM
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Three ignominious, embarrassing, frightening names trace the downward trajectory of the right wing in the U.S.:

George Bush. Sarah Palin. Donald Trump.

A large faction of the U.S. population has descended into insanity, and Trump represents the last gasp of a psychotic constituency with no future in light of the new demographic and economic reality of the country. The boil will be lanced, and the fallout won't be pleasant as the Republican party either disintegrates or at least tries to restructure itself in an attempt to stay relevant.

I think the most fascinating aspect of the election is that social media is on trial here. Can it be trusted as an accurate bellwether and/or influencer of an electorate, or is it mostly just the white noise of the loudest, most hysterical voices? I think it's the former, ominously enough. Yes, the smartphone Facebook-users posting their memes of choice really do represent the majority. There are 200 million people on Facebook in the U.S.

Win the memes and you win the election.
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  #157  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 10:09 PM
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All the live streams are starting. VICE and Al Jazeera are particularly good if you're curious where to go.

There's a shitload of them listed here. Don't necessarily click the top one (PBS), there are many more displayed below:

http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/presid...on-states-won/

Here's the VICE one. Their coverage when it's on is excellent but they take extended breaks (no commercials or anything, just exit polls along the bottom and music). I'm hoping that won't continue once the results start coming in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBwGlqrP1-E
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  #158  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 10:12 PM
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Also, the New York Times has dropped its paywall for tonight's election-related stories:

http://www.nytimes.com/pages/politic...pan-abc-region
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  #159  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Three ignominious, embarrassing, frightening names trace the downward trajectory of the right wing in the U.S.:

George Bush. Sarah Palin. Donald Trump.

A large faction of the U.S. population has descended into insanity, and Trump represents the last gasp of a psychotic constituency with no future in light of the new demographic and economic reality of the country. The boil will be lanced, and the fallout won't be pleasant as the Republican party either disintegrates or at least tries to restructure itself in an attempt to stay relevant.

I think the most fascinating aspect of the election is that social media is on trial here. Can it be trusted as an accurate bellwether and/or influencer of an electorate, or is it mostly just the white noise of the loudest, most hysterical voices? I think it's the former, ominously enough. Yes, the smartphone Facebook-users posting their memes of choice really do represent the majority. There are 200 million people on Facebook in the U.S.

Win the memes and you win the election.
Has it ever been? If so, why?
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  #160  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2016, 10:25 PM
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O.K., VICE is gone now as their actual news is starting on HBO. They'll just have results displayed on their Youtube stream.

Before they went off, they tallied their final numbers.

They divided the U.S. up into Swing, Trump Base, and Clinton Base. Today, Trump Base voters are turning up 10% higher than Clinton Base voters. However, Clinton has the lead in early voting. If these numbers turn out to be the overall averages for the day, it'll end with Clinton getting slightly over 51% of the vote.
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