HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #2941  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 2:09 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
I haven't heard "take a decision" either.
I gather it may be a calque from French: "prendre une décision".

Again, this is another one that might cut both ways. In French you sometimes hear "faire une décision" which is incorrect and an obvious borrowing from English.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2942  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 2:37 PM
begratto's Avatar
begratto begratto is offline
Explorateur urbain
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Verdun > Montréal > Québec > Canada
Posts: 1,047
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
This definitely happens although I didn't realize how much intuition English-speaking Canadians normally have when it comes to reading French until I saw some Americans with zero knowledge of French attempt to do the same thing. American renditions of French names tend to be really strange.
(...)
Very true! But I'd say it's more of an Ontario vs rest-of-the-continent thing. My name is very French and contains sounds that don't exist in English.

As part of my work, I deal with people in the Maritimes, Ontario, Western Canada and sometimes in the USA. The people who manage to pronounce my name almost correctly are usually in Ontario. Maybe Ontarians have more exposure to French and Quebec generally? Or better French teachers? People in the Maritimes and Western Canada usually butcher my name until I tell them how to pronounce it. And even then...
__________________
Venit ad oppidum!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2943  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 4:18 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by begratto View Post
Very true! But I'd say it's more of an Ontario vs rest-of-the-continent thing. My name is very French and contains sounds that don't exist in English.

As part of my work, I deal with people in the Maritimes, Ontario, Western Canada and sometimes in the USA. The people who manage to pronounce my name almost correctly are usually in Ontario. Maybe Ontarians have more exposure to French and Quebec generally? Or better French teachers? People in the Maritimes and Western Canada usually butcher my name until I tell them how to pronounce it. And even then...
I am always shocked to meet Canadians who don't know that "eau" in French makes an "o" sound. Many (maybe most) people do know this but it's surprising there are still a lot who don't.

In the U.S. outside of a good chunk of New England and Louisiana it's pretty systematic that people will think "eau" is pronounced similar to "yew" (or something).
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2944  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 4:38 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,677
Quote:
Originally Posted by begratto View Post
Very true! But I'd say it's more of an Ontario vs rest-of-the-continent thing. My name is very French and contains sounds that don't exist in English.

As part of my work, I deal with people in the Maritimes, Ontario, Western Canada and sometimes in the USA. The people who manage to pronounce my name almost correctly are usually in Ontario. Maybe Ontarians have more exposure to French and Quebec generally? Or better French teachers? People in the Maritimes and Western Canada usually butcher my name until I tell them how to pronounce it. And even then...
Maybe people in Ontario just happen to encounter your name more frequently. Or maybe they don't encounter somebody else who has your name and pronounces it differently (some names have many variants). It seems unlikely that people in Ontario have on average more exposure to French than people in say New Brunswick.

You're sort of damned if you don't and damned if you do with names. Even if somebody hypothetically has an obviously French name and you pronounce it in an obviously correct French way that person might want you to pronounce it differently. And it is their name so it is really up to them. All you can do is ask somebody how they want their name to be pronounced if you are not sure.

I have two somewhat uncommon though not difficult last names that are hyphenated together. They give a lot of people trouble and a lot of computer systems can't handle something as exotic as a hyphen. I also have/had two middle names on some documents.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2945  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 6:16 PM
Nashe's Avatar
Nashe Nashe is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Moncton, NB
Posts: 2,471
I don't get too bent out of shape about pronunciation in general. For example, when talking to someone from "Kebek", I answer to "ood-suhn" without missing a beat, despite the fact that there's a giant bay right next to them with the same name (and a small town, too, if I remember correctly... I wonder how they pronounce that?).

There's a strong tendency to focus on the words themselves and not try to grok the intended meaning. We do it here a lot. Not naming names, though, we all do it. It's the internet.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2946  
Old Posted Dec 15, 2017, 9:13 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sin Jaaawnz, Newf'nland
Posts: 34,658
Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I think Newfoundland, Singapore and Hong Kong must be the only three places in the world where people normally end their sentences with "luh"
Is theirs like this?

https://www.facebook.com/MummersFest...0638159350440/
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2947  
Old Posted Dec 16, 2017, 12:37 AM
Loco101's Avatar
Loco101 Loco101 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Timmins, Northern Ontario
Posts: 7,649
Many francophone Canadians end theirs sentences with "là" which sounds pretty much the same. A lot of francophones in Timmins will end their sentences with "there" (English translation of that word) when speaking English.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2948  
Old Posted Dec 18, 2017, 2:42 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loco101 View Post
Many francophone Canadians end theirs sentences with "là" which sounds pretty much the same. A lot of francophones in Timmins will end their sentences with "there" (English translation of that word) when speaking English.
Or "dair, dair".

"Dat's a nice car dair dair!"
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2949  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 12:11 AM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is offline
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 8,116
Sable Island resident who assisted a dolphin washed up on the shore interviewed on As It Happens tonight had the closest thing to a West Country accent I've ever heard in Canada.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/...tion-1.4474747

Not quite as strong as the remnants of West Country remaining along the Atlantic Coast in the U.S. like here:

Video Link


But not far off.

Fascinating. I'd always thought Nova Scotia had a stronger Scottish legacy than anything else, but there's nothing Scottish in the accent there. Rather, the "ker" for "car" that you get in the Maritimes (Rick Mercer, etc.) is clearly a West Country thing.

We're all speaking West Country descended Shakespearean English with hard rhotic Rs on this side of the Atlantic, as, like all colonies, we were conservative and preservative while the motherland evolved away from those Rs to the current British Rs, but it's really interesting how there are small pockets of speakers who sound closer to the modern-day West Country accent than the rest of us.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2950  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 12:51 AM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 2,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Maybe people in Ontario just happen to encounter your name more frequently. Or maybe they don't encounter somebody else who has your name and pronounces it differently (some names have many variants). It seems unlikely that people in Ontario have on average more exposure to French than people in say New Brunswick.

You're sort of damned if you don't and damned if you do with names. Even if somebody hypothetically has an obviously French name and you pronounce it in an obviously correct French way that person might want you to pronounce it differently. And it is their name so it is really up to them. All you can do is ask somebody how they want their name to be pronounced if you are not sure.

I have two somewhat uncommon though not difficult last names that are hyphenated together. They give a lot of people trouble and a lot of computer systems can't handle something as exotic as a hyphen. I also have/had two middle names on some documents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
In the U.S. outside of a good chunk of New England and Louisiana it's pretty systematic that people will think "eau" is pronounced similar to "yew" (or something).
Some people pronounce their own names like that, if they don't speak French. It's funny to pronounce someone's name in a way you thought would be "authentic" and thus respectful, only to have it corrected to the anglicized way the bearer of the name wanted it.

It's also interesting how in the US, there's more attempt or at least it's assumed to be normal to pronounce Spanish names (either by the bearer of the name or by others) "authentically" but not so much French names. It's common for American towns, say in the Midwest, with French names to be more anglicized (or pronounced as they're spelled in English) than say Californian cities with Spanish names.

Last edited by Capsicum; Jan 6, 2018 at 1:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2951  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 1:14 AM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 2,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
Maybe people in Ontario just happen to encounter your name more frequently. Or maybe they don't encounter somebody else who has your name and pronounces it differently (some names have many variants). It seems unlikely that people in Ontario have on average more exposure to French than people in say New Brunswick.

You're sort of damned if you don't and damned if you do with names. Even if somebody hypothetically has an obviously French name and you pronounce it in an obviously correct French way that person might want you to pronounce it differently. And it is their name so it is really up to them. All you can do is ask somebody how they want their name to be pronounced if you are not sure.

I have two somewhat uncommon though not difficult last names that are hyphenated together. They give a lot of people trouble and a lot of computer systems can't handle something as exotic as a hyphen. I also have/had two middle names on some documents.
What's your default expectation for pronouncing a French name if you're talking in an obviously Anglophone context but don't have the chance to ask ahead of time how he or she would like it pronounced (eg. I'd like to speak to Mr./Ms. X)?

In Canada, since most people at least have some exposure to French through elementary school (even if it's really basic, at the very least the phonology wouldn't be totally foreign), I'd expect the French pronunciation would be the "default".

People probably have higher expectation of French surnames, geographical place names and other name pronunciation not being anglicized, that they would not have with say Polish or Korean surnames or something, because of French's familiarity in Canada. Also, though indirect exposure if they live in a place without a large Spanish-speaking demographic (often via the US), most Canadians probably pick up how some Spanish names and words are (for instance the Spanish "j").
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2952  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 1:41 AM
TorontoDrew's Avatar
TorontoDrew TorontoDrew is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 9,775
I never really noticed it until this trio. So many people who grew up in the Sunshine Coast have that typical stereotype Canadian accent you find in only small towns across this country or in Minnesota.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2953  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 1:46 AM
GlassCity's Avatar
GlassCity GlassCity is offline
Rational urbanist
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Metro Vancouver
Posts: 5,263
I was first introduced to the butchering of French names here in Winnipeg, and it's fairly noticeable. The one common example I can pull off the top of my head right now is the pronunciation of St. Boniface, which is pronounced in English here as "Saint BAWN-uh-fiss"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2954  
Old Posted Jan 6, 2018, 3:14 AM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 23,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capsicum View Post
What's your default expectation for pronouncing a French name if you're talking in an obviously Anglophone context but don't have the chance to ask ahead of time how he or she would like it pronounced (eg. I'd like to speak to Mr./Ms. X)?

In Canada, since most people at least have some exposure to French through elementary school (even if it's really basic, at the very least the phonology wouldn't be totally foreign), I'd expect the French pronunciation would be the "default".

People probably have higher expectation of French surnames, geographical place names and other name pronunciation not being anglicized, that they would not have with say Polish or Korean surnames or something, because of French's familiarity in Canada. Also, though indirect exposure if they live in a place without a large Spanish-speaking demographic (often via the US), most Canadians probably pick up how some Spanish names and words are (for instance the Spanish "j").
Always, unless and until "corrected", I'd say. Except where the local pronunciation is well known (e.g. in K-W, Lavigne is "La-VING" and Mombourquette is "MUM-burr-cat"). Also in K-W, I've found that Portuguese surnames are far more likely to be anglicized that Spanish surnames.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2955  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2018, 2:44 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sin Jaaawnz, Newf'nland
Posts: 34,658
N.L. accent the outlier among English speakers across Canada
If you're an urban, middle-class Canadian, you probably sound like everyone else, Toronto linguist says

Quote:
Canada is known for its vast land mass and a variety of landscapes. But whether you can see mountains or grasslands in your backyard, almost all Canadian English speakers sound the same, a Toronto linguist says.

Jack Chambers says urban, middle-class English-speaking Canadians sound alike across the country, and no other large nation — the United States, for example — is comparably "homogeneous." There are slight variations by region, but the big exception is the Newfoundland accent.

"There was a strong impulse to settle the west from Ontario. And then a strong impulse to broadcast the central Canadian English accent to all parts of the country," he said, explaining why most Canadians have a similar accent.

...

Part of why the Newfoundland accent endures is because the province joined Confederation last, in 1949, and its isolation from the rest of the country, according to Chambers.

"It was the first English-speaking colony of Britain. So it had a [more than] 300-year history before it became part of Canada," he said. While fishing people came even earlier, the first settlements of Europeans in Newfoundland were in the early 17th century.

"It was settled by west country Englishmen and Irish people, especially in the St. John's region. Those are two groups of people who didn't have much input into the settlement of the rest of Canada. And so you start from a different point and you end up at a different point."

The Irish are a significant population throughout most of Canada, but have since mixed with waves of more diverse settlers.

While the "distinctiveness" of Newfoundland English is still detectable, people who live in the city and particularly, young people, are sounding more like "speakers of mainland Canadian English," Chambers said.

Sounding 'too bay' frowned upon

Janelle, who declined to use her last name, moved to Ontario in the summer and says she uses an "Ontario accent" at work.

"I just kind of use it because I feel it's easier for people to understand me," she said. "But sometimes, a word or a phrase will slip out that doesn't sound normal or natural to people who are used to Ontario English," like the term b'y.

She recalls as a student in Newfoundland being advised "when you're talking to the public or you're trying to represent yourself to talk 'proper.'"

"Even within Newfoundland, people try not to sound 'too bay.' St. John's is town and kind of everywhere else is considered the bay," she said. "If you're from a particularly small community, your accent is going to be thicker than if you're from Corner Brook or if you're from St. John's. People have that assumption that if you're from the bay, you're not familiar with technology, you don't know current trends."

Typically, her accent gets a positive response, the 25-year-old said. People will ask about Newfoundland or reminisce about a visit there.

"But sometimes, you'll get, 'Oh, a stupid Newfie' or somebody will tell me a Newfie joke."

"They think that I don't know things that I do because of the way I talk. I'll get accused of, 'Oh, you said that wrong,'" she said. "Well, that's how I talk. It's just as valid as the way you talk. As long we understand each other, I don't really see the problem in it."
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...ct-5-1.4505392

Sucks that it's fading, but it's got a long time to live yet.
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2956  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2018, 2:54 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: La vraie capitale
Posts: 23,488
Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
N.L. accent the outlier among English speakers across Canada
If you're an urban, middle-class Canadian, you probably sound like everyone else, Toronto linguist says



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...ct-5-1.4505392

Sucks that it's fading, but it's got a long time to live yet.
Often, when you see younger people and young business people from Nfld on TV, they sound vaguely "Atlantic", but the accent tends not to jump out at you as it does with older people and rural people. Perhaps the accent is stronger among themselves, but they seem to have no trouble doing a version of "standard Canadian".
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2957  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2018, 3:07 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
I ♣ Baby Seals
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Sin Jaaawnz, Newf'nland
Posts: 34,658
It's definitely stronger among ourselves - you'd have to catch them chatting with other Newfoundlanders, say at a house party or on the phone. If they still just sounded vaguely Atlantic then that's their natural accent. I, however, don't think it's gone that far yet for people who are raised here. There are some people who only have a thick Newfoundland accent for emphasis, like Oprah speaking ebonics, but even their unguarded, natural accent is still generally strong.

Most of us can do a "talking to mainlanders" accent - we generally learn it in school. It's not perfect, standard Canadian English (our vowels still don't sound quite the same, even when we're consciously trying) but it can fool most people most of the time. And it's ingrained in you. If the linguist from that article was interviewing me, there is absolutely no way he'd hear much of my natural accent unless there were more Newfoundlanders in the room talking. Not sure why that happens - I'm not ashamed of my accent, not even subconsciously, I love it. There are still lots of people, though, including my age and younger, who cannot hide it at all. An acquaintance of ours, Beth, is like that - Ayreonaut couldn't believe how thick her accent was despite being from St. John's.

This kid is a good example. There is no way he's ever faking a mainland accent, ever. He'll never be able to reproduce the cadence or flow of standard CBC talk:

Video Link
__________________
Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2958  
Old Posted Jan 29, 2018, 3:26 PM
Acajack's Avatar
Acajack Acajack is offline
Unapologetic Occidental
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Province 2, Canadian Empire
Posts: 67,743
Quote:
Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker View Post
Jack Chambers says urban, middle-class English-speaking Canadians sound alike across the country, and no other large nation — the United States, for example — is comparably "homogeneous." There are slight variations by region, but the big exception is the Newfoundland accent.

.
Well, I'd say the Australian accent is pretty homogenous over a pretty huge territory.

That said, I definitely agree with Mr. Chambers on everything else.
__________________
Amber alerts welcome at any time
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2959  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 6:55 PM
rousseau's Avatar
rousseau rousseau is offline
Registered Drug User
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Southern Ontario
Posts: 8,116
Victualling?



Is that a holdover from a bygone era? A quick Google search suggests the strong possibility that these days the term is only used for restaurant business licences in Toronto and nowhere else.

Fascinating. And hilarious.

Howdy pardner! Step raht in and git yerself to some victualling in this here fine food emporium.

Last edited by rousseau; Apr 2, 2018 at 7:50 PM. Reason: Typo
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #2960  
Old Posted Apr 2, 2018, 7:41 PM
someone123's Avatar
someone123 someone123 is offline
hähnchenbrüstfiletstüc
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 33,677
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
That said, I definitely agree with Mr. Chambers on everything else.
It's mostly an article about Newfoundland but the article implicitly argues that the Maritimes are more like Ontario or Western Canada than Newfoundland and I don't think this is correct.

Most Canadians probably can't even tell the difference between a Cape Breton and Newfoundland accent.

I know a lot of middle class urban Maritimers that have accents that would immediately stick out here. Plus the urban middle class of the Maritimes is full of Newfoundlanders. If you live in Halifax or Moncton and leave your house you will run into a variety of distinctive domestic accents every day. That is much less true in Toronto or Vancouver.

There is a lot of pressure to conform accent-wise in most of Canada because there is so little regional variation and differences in accents are associated with immigration. If you're a native English speaker it is relatively easy to conform to a different accent and if you're just interested in getting your point across that is the way to go rather than hearing 5 times a day about how you pronounce things in a strange way.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 9:11 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.