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View Poll Results: Which route should be twinned? Quelle route doit-on élargir?
11 8 20.51%
17 31 79.49%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2017, 5:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
Then another question: Where the rail tracks used to be, can the province just build the divided freeway there? It's as if "the ground has been cleared for us".
A twinned rail line's right of way is about 12m wide. A divided highway needs a minimum of 100m right of way (20m per direction for paved road, 30m for the median and 15m each for the shoulders). In many cases, that rail line is travelling on a berm through muskeg. You can't built a highway on that, it has to go around. 100m width through a muskeg basically requires draining and filling it, and the modern EA process wouldn't allow that.

Also, that land is still owned by the railways. It's private property, and they don't sell it cheap, and they don't sell to governments. (Governments tend to re-activate the lines and compete with them, and they hate that.)

Look at the Arbutus line fiasco in Vancouver to see how difficult it is for a government to re-purpose a railway line. Railways in Canada have rights that even government's can't seem to circumvent; municipal governments are literally powerless against them.
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  #102  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2017, 5:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
In that case, on the Canadian side, I can see all the businesses currently on Trunk Road having to relocate themselves closer to the new border crossing. It's a hassle but that's still doable.

As for SSM in Michigan, though, how's that city gonna let this happen since it will be bypassed completely? :p

Ps: I apologize if I sound cynical about every single proposal (even including mine), but I just see it fit to think from both sides. Also, can someone teach me how to upload photos without having to use any link? Or if that isn't feasible, onto what website should I upload the picture so I can put it here?
I think the businesses would be fine where they are on Trunk Road although there would likely be some new ones that would be closer. It's already a truck route so there would be no issues about that type of development. Plus, it would mean that the Sault wouldn't lose out with the new route.

Sault, Michigan doesn't have much say in this type of thing. The only businesses that benefit are gas stations but they are busy enough with Canadians in personal vehicles who drive across the river to fill up.
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  #103  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2017, 5:20 AM
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Originally Posted by swimmer_spe View Post
So, it sounds like the current 17 4 lanes there has actually been future built... That normally doen't seem to happen up here.

Would this be built within the next 10 years? Or would this be like most major projects and delayed until no one is alive to remember it.
Yes I do believe that where the divided highway ends was chosen for the purpose of a new border crossing. There is enough land for it to happen. It would mean that the transports would have direct and quick access to Michigan without having to drive on city streets.

Now there is always the issue of whether or not Michigan will want it but eventually I think it will happen for economic reasons. I know it won't be built within 10 years. My guess is in about 20-30 years.
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  #104  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2017, 5:39 PM
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Yes I do believe that where the divided highway ends was chosen for the purpose of a new border crossing. There is enough land for it to happen. It would mean that the transports would have direct and quick access to Michigan without having to drive on city streets.

Now there is always the issue of whether or not Michigan will want it but eventually I think it will happen for economic reasons. I know it won't be built within 10 years. My guess is in about 20-30 years.
That will depend on how much the state cares about its northern peninsula then. I've read articles that said the latter's actually more connected to Wisconsin, Minnesota and probably Northern Ontario than to places south of Mackinaw, just saying.
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  #105  
Old Posted Dec 5, 2017, 10:22 PM
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The poor weather closed Highway 17 in Northwestern Ontario recently. Would twinning really help with that??
Also, has anyone heard of paving roads with solar-power materials?
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  #106  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
The poor weather closed Highway 17 in Northwestern Ontario recently. Would twinning really help with that??
Also, has anyone heard of paving roads with solar-power materials?
Probably not. Highway 402 from London to Sarnia was closed a few years back due to whiteout conditions. Short of building a giant underground tunnel, weather will close highways should the conditions be too treacherous.

As for solar panels on highways: No. You now have the additional challenges of engineering solar panels to be driven on by cars, trucks and plows. That, and a lot of highways are nowhere near the demand sources (i.e. cities). Solar is already expensive as an energy source, so the engineering requirements would add cost.

XKCD: Solar panels

Better to put solar panels on the rooftops of homes in the suburbs. That's where the power demand is, it's a bunch of underused space and can be developed by individual homeowners.
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  #107  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 3:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
The poor weather closed Highway 17 in Northwestern Ontario recently. Would twinning really help with that??
Also, has anyone heard of paving roads with solar-power materials?
Maybe.

400 gets frequent lake effect white outs. They normally don't close it. In fact, when was the last time it was closed due to weather?

Having that barrier means that there is less risk of head on collisions.

So, if 11/17 were 4 lanes, there is a good chance that it would remain open.
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  #108  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 3:45 AM
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Northwestern Ontario gets a fraction of the snow southern Ontario gets (Thunder Bay Airport gets less snow than Pearson Airport), so if the highway were built to Highway 400 standards it would probably never close.
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  #109  
Old Posted Dec 6, 2017, 5:59 PM
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Northwestern Ontario gets a fraction of the snow southern Ontario gets (Thunder Bay Airport gets less snow than Pearson Airport), so if the highway were built to Highway 400 standards it would probably never close.
Really? I feel like historically you guys get a lot more snow than we do down here. o_o
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  #110  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2017, 5:41 AM
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The far North in Northern Ontario normally gets lets much less snow than further South. Northeastern Ontario normally gets much more snow than the Northwest.

My friends who live in Thunder Bay and who are originally from Timmins tell me that while temperatures in T-Bay and Timmins are quite similar, T-Bay only gets about half as much snow as Timmins. Another interesting weather fact: Thunder Bay gets the most bright sunshine of any city in the province while Timmins gets the least.
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  #111  
Old Posted Dec 7, 2017, 2:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Loco101 View Post
The far North in Northern Ontario normally gets lets much less snow than further South. Northeastern Ontario normally gets much more snow than the Northwest.

My friends who live in Thunder Bay and who are originally from Timmins tell me that while temperatures in T-Bay and Timmins are quite similar, T-Bay only gets about half as much snow as Timmins. Another interesting weather fact: Thunder Bay gets the most bright sunshine of any city in the province while Timmins gets the least.
I just checked Wikipedia, genuinely surprised. 😮
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  #112  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2017, 1:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue View Post
I just checked Wikipedia, genuinely surprised. 😮
From the Weather Winners website:

Average Hours of sunshine per year:

Thunder Bay: 2167.74

Timmins: 1766.74

Source: https://www.weatherstats.ca/
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  #113  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2017, 2:09 AM
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I have to say, I would be a bit sad if they twinned that highway (17 from Sault to Nipigon). There's so much scenery there that it would be a shame to blast through it, especially considering how wide the divided highway ROW's are. Is there any real problem with the status quo? Not enough capacity? Not enough passing lanes? Safety issues? Detour problems (I suppose this one is probably a big one). I wouldn't want to stand in the way of something that's really needed, but I don't think we need to do it for the sake of twinning itself.

I have to say, I used to do Pembroke-North Bay quite often, and the Mattawa-North Bay portion was surprisingly nice to drive on as there are quite a few passing lanes. Not so much towards Deep River, but you get one good chance to pass trucks on a big hill where they're going like 40 by the time they get to the top.

That being said, there are a couple of problem intersections (particularly the Corbeil turnoff) that are in need of some attention due to vehicle volume. Apparently the local governments have convinced MTO to fix it... with traffic lights. Meanwhile in Renfrew, some work has begun with planning the Arnprior-Renfrew segment of the 417, which could really solve a lot of problem intersections, especially Calabogie Rd (although there's a village or something right at that intersection which might make things a bit tight).

In any case, my opinion is that the main priorities are:

Arnprior-Petawawa (or maybe Chalk River)
North Bay-Sudbury
Sudbury-Sault? Don't know, haven't been there since I was like 10, but as an outsider there would seem to be a case for it
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  #114  
Old Posted Dec 8, 2017, 2:52 AM
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I have to say, I would be a bit sad if they twinned that highway (17 from Sault to Nipigon). There's so much scenery there that it would be a shame to blast through it, especially considering how wide the divided highway ROW's are. Is there any real problem with the status quo? Not enough capacity? Not enough passing lanes? Safety issues? Detour problems (I suppose this one is probably a big one). I wouldn't want to stand in the way of something that's really needed, but I don't think we need to do it for the sake of twinning itself.

I have to say, I used to do Pembroke-North Bay quite often, and the Mattawa-North Bay portion was surprisingly nice to drive on as there are quite a few passing lanes. Not so much towards Deep River, but you get one good chance to pass trucks on a big hill where they're going like 40 by the time they get to the top.

That being said, there are a couple of problem intersections (particularly the Corbeil turnoff) that are in need of some attention due to vehicle volume. Apparently the local governments have convinced MTO to fix it... with traffic lights. Meanwhile in Renfrew, some work has begun with planning the Arnprior-Renfrew segment of the 417, which could really solve a lot of problem intersections, especially Calabogie Rd (although there's a village or something right at that intersection which might make things a bit tight).

In any case, my opinion is that the main priorities are:

Arnprior-Petawawa (or maybe Chalk River)
North Bay-Sudbury
Sudbury-Sault? Don't know, haven't been there since I was like 10, but as an outsider there would seem to be a case for it
What the, passing while going up the hill? That's a bit dangerous...

I thought it was only a flashing yellow beacon at the intersection of 17/94, though. Then again, I was driving at 10:45 pm on a Saturday under extreme fatigue, so what do I think I would have noticed, besides dimly marked OPP hiding beside the rock to catch people going 90~100 in a 70 zone (500 meters east of 11/17 interchange)...

IMO the twinning should go all the way to North Bay instead of stopping at Petawawa. Yes I know that many will tell me the aadt is as low as 2900, but here's the thing: the railway is gone south of Matawa. We need a proper freeway to move goods around. Then, once you get to Matawa, you might as well continue to North Bay.

As for the portion between SSM and Nipigon, I would say this: Don't blast the rocks for another 2 lanes unless
(1) there's compelling evidence that doing so will consistently bring a lot more tourists year round, and
(2) we know how to winter-prove that segment of 17 because it's too winter-prone at the moment.

OPP NW has tweeted some insane pictures on its condition around Marathon, and, mind you, that part apparently has 4 lanes, just undivided.

Tbh, if I were allowed to revote, I would have voted 11 instead just because it's a lot cheaper to do, and also because it opens up the roadway (or gateway) to the far north.

Only if those who voted for 17 would care to give a rationale...
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  #115  
Old Posted Dec 9, 2017, 4:26 AM
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Damn.
Another fatality on the 11, this time it was near Temagami. Last one was only 2 weeks ago.
This is absolutely unacceptable, so does anyone here have a list of fatalities (or closures) on both 11 and 17 for the past 20 years? We can start a petition (if there hasn't been one already) to call on MTO to widen the thing even though it's not even in their plan. QC175-style.
Or, at the very least, we need to get MTO to bring up the standard of highway maintenance. Or, MTO should mandate use of winter tires from October to April for areas north of French River and Chalk River and OPP will need to strictly enforce it - vehicles will be disabled unless winter tires are installed or towed if there isn't one.
Expensive? Yes, but lives matter more.

Update:
"A recently widowed mother of nine children whose husband died in a transport trailer collision on Highway 400 last month was shaken to learn her father was involved in a fatal collision Friday morning. Nikiyah Mulak-Dunn's father was injured and taken to hospital by ambulance following a collision that has closed Highway 11 north in both directions. He is expected to be released." http://www.nugget.ca/2017/12/08/wido...atal-collision
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Last edited by Dengler Avenue; Dec 9, 2017 at 4:43 AM.
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  #116  
Old Posted Dec 10, 2017, 3:50 PM
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Really? I feel like historically you guys get a lot more snow than we do down here. o_o
There are no large bodies of water to the west of us. You need water to make snow. We very rarely get snow squalls or lake effect snow, the only times that's possible is when there's a strong low pressure system to the south of us (generally centered over Minneapolis), before the lake freezes over, which causes a very strong wind from the east that results in a similar effect, but since those happen early in the season, we usually get more rain than snow, or get an ice storm, and it often has a chance to melt. The other factor is that Thunder Bay is located in a valley and has a unique microclimate compared to the rest of the region. Places an hour outside the city are over 1,000 feet higher up than the city and often have snow for weeks or a month before we do, and some spots don't see all the snow melt away until June, while the city only has snow from November to April. My dad's house half an hour away and at 450m above sea level has had snow since the last week of October, while my house about a half mile from the lake at 189m above sea level didn't have snow until 5 days ago.

Even Vancouver, BC gets more heavy snowfall events (40+ cm in a single storm) than Thunder Bay. Up here, 10cm or more is generally regarded as a heavy snow storm and tangles up the city for at least a day. We got 5cm and high winds on Tuesday, and the city was paralyzed. Around a quarter of the city lost power and nearly 20,000 people couldn't go to work. We like to joke about Americans not being able to deal with this but in Thunder Bay, while it's snowing, the city is effectively functioning at half capacity. We can clean up after the storm very quickly (usually 4 days or so) but while it's happening, it's chaos.

The only reason it seems like we get more snow than Southern Ontario is because, unlike Southern Ontario, it doesn't get warm enough to melt until late March. Waterloo can get a heavy dumping of snow, then warm weather that melts all of it, then another storm, then more warm weather, etc., while Thunder Bay got 5cm on Tuesday and the snow that fell that night will still be on the ground at least until Easter, so the snowbanks do accumulate more even though less snow falls up here, and we also get snow right into early May, even if it goes into the 20s in March.
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  #117  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2017, 2:51 AM
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What the, passing while going up the hill? That's a bit dangerous...
I know it was a bit off topic, but just to clarify, There's a passing lane there. It's a pretty long stretch with a 6% grade.
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  #118  
Old Posted Dec 11, 2017, 4:17 AM
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I know it was a bit off topic, but just to clarify, There's a passing lane there. It's a pretty long stretch with a 6% grade.
Wondering if a tunnel (like how the Aussies did it with their A1 around St Helen) would be cost effective then...
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  #119  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2017, 4:20 AM
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Yo people it just occurred to me that:
Right now, the AADT on Highway 17 between Nipigon and SSM is low (minimum 1500), but if we twin the highway between Manitoba and Nipigon and between SSM and Arnprior, won't that jack up the AADT on that segment?
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  #120  
Old Posted Dec 13, 2017, 2:22 AM
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Probably not. There just isn't that much traffic between Winnipeg and Toronto. Most people would fly, it's a lot faster and costs just as much as the gas to actually travel.
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