Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by memememe76

Although, even with the English on the signs, Whites apparently don't feel included in Richmond. Not sure how Indo-Canadians can still feel included, when their Chinese speaking ability is probably similarly limited.

I don't think they do. I've had these same concerns raised to me by people of many other races. It's not a racial concern, it's one of language.

[Hali87]

Originally Posted by geotag277

If you don't know the words to a song, you are excluded far more, at a cultural level, than not understanding some random advertisement.

Music is a temporal thing though, whereas advertisements (at least in the context of this thread) are spatial. Once the song's over, it's over. It's not a concrete thing that remains in the public realm 24/7. The signs are. It's also not necessarily practical to include multiple languages on one song (doing so fundamentally changes the song) whereas I don't see what grief it would cause to include an English (or French) translation on a sign. Even if the sign is designed as some kind of Chinese Calligraphic art piece, I'm sure there's a way to subtly provide a translation without ruining the aesthetics.

The impression that I get is that to many Anglo-Richmondites (or whatever the demonym is), the ads are (rightly or wrongly) interpreted as a sign that many of the newer Chinese immigrants are coming to Canada with no intention of participating in the established local culture (perhaps even a disdain for it) and aren't really interested in allowing the established locals to participate in theirs. To some people this might not be a problem but I can see how it would leave the long-standing residents feeling alienated or even a bit insulted. It kind of reminds me of the Queen's students vs. Rest-of-Kingston dichotomy, but complicated by a language barrier, as well as the "hard-to-talk-about-because-it-involves-race" challenge.

This (the possibly-real phenomenon + the interpretation of it) is not good for race relations or society as a whole.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

This has nothing to do with legal, this is about common sense. I'm sorry I keep repeating myself over and over in every post, a Canadian should be able to understand their surroundings while in Canada. This is not the same as Google only wanting to hire people good at math.

As I stated previously, there are some signs in Shanghai, especially in expat-heavy areas, that are only in English. So it's not like this doesn't happen in reverse. I don't think the Chinese get bent out of shape over it.

[matthew6]

What about foreign language tattoos? I have a right as a Canadian to know what is written on someone's arm.

How about Indian rock pictographs? Perhaps the government can install translations.

Street art?

It never ends!

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by matthew6

What about foreign language tattoos? I have a right as a Canadian to know what is written on someone's arm.

I wonder if some of the tattoo wearers even know what is written on their arm. The joke could be on them: Perhaps it reads "Stupid Round-Eye Douchebag"

http://www.reshareworthy.com/asian-c...os-gone-wrong/


gawker

• Video Link

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

What a silly argument.

1. In my opinion, trying to be tolerant is far better than being xenophobic, nationalistic, and exclusionary like many other places in the world, including some parts of Canada.

2. It's utterly outrageous to suggest that a woman wearing a burqa in hot weather does not actually want to wear a burqa. Yes, a burqa in hot weather might be uncomfortable. However, people forego comforts all the time if they believe in some higher ideals. It is conceivable that the woman feels her relationship to her God and her devotion to lead a modest life outweighs the temporary discomforts attendant to wearing lots of clothing in hot weather.

Hell, there are times when I would feel more comfortable in hot weather without wearing a shirt, but I nevertheless wear a shirt because I feel kind of odd walking around shirtless in public unless I am at an area where it is very common to do so (like a beach or a swimming pool).

I don't like burqas and I don't like religions, but it is bizarre to conclude that a woman wearing a burqa in hot weather is doing it against her will.

It was just one example. Educated, well-informed Muslim women who feel totally free to speak their minds on any subject seem to overwhelmingly agree with me, so I don't see why I would have any reason not to believe them.

Anyway, it's a bit disturbing to see liberal thinkers constantly and automatically leap to the defence of obviously illiberal covenants, seemingly in a desire to prove their liberalism.

And I say this as a liberal, lefty social-democrat.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

There should be diversity in the level of diversity. Diverse diversity.

Yeah, just like our liberalism should be variable and multi-levelled as well.

Liberal liberalism. To the point where we tolerate and even applaud the most illiberal things... in the name of our own liberalism of course!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I don't quite follow, how would Canadian born Mandarin-first-language kids feel like outsiders? Because of the amount of English everywhere that they are unable to navigate?

.

I don't understand why the sentiment of feeling at home in a particular place for native speakers of Mandarin who were born in Canada (who also happen to be fluent second language English speakers one can assume) would somehow be related to the presence of Chinese-only signs in their community.

I would say that millions of Canadians born to immigrant parents go through everyday life without seeing any signs in the first language they learned from their parents, and most don't appear to be traumatized by this fact, and don't feel less "at home" here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Interesting. In my experience Chinese kids were the only ones to separate themselves, and obviously I don't mean all of them. Everybody else interacted with everybody and there were few ethnic divisions within a school. It existed in the larger region in terms of gangs and just plain racism, but not so much in small communities like schools.

For those who went to diverse schools where certain specific groups were quite large, was there a rule about kids having to speak English in the school or were they allowed to speak whatever they wanted in the halls, cafeteria, etc.?

I am just wondering, not because of the social engineering aspect some of you might suspect, but on a simple question of disciplinary practicality where a kid can say "I am gonna fucking kill you" or "you're a cocksucking faggot" in a language teachers don't understand...

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I may have used the wrong words. Of course music is a great indicator and example of culture than billboard ads are. But hearing La Vie en Rose in a restaurant doesn't keep you from being a full participant of a city, whereas seeing a flashy bus stop ad in only Chinese does.

Of course it does prevent you from being a full participant in the city. It doesn't allow you to fully understand the cultural significance of the song. If you are sitting in a French restaurant and only hearing French songs, the person beside you who understands French is being a fuller participant at that dinner as they are not only enjoying their meal, they fully understand the cultural connection with the music, as opposed to you, who is just enjoying some unintelligible harmonies.

The argument works for basically anything. If you aren't trained in Latin dance, you aren't a full participant of your city either, because you can't partake in the many Latin dance clubs, and even if you do go there, you won't be speaking the same dancing language. The cultural connection isn't there and you aren't "fully participating".

Nothing is stopping you from learning the lyrics to French songs, learning Latin dance, or learning Mandarin, and each one, whether they advertise or not, are preventing you from being a "full participant" in your city.

The line you draw is arbitrary, whether you want to admit it or not. It might not look arbitrary from where you stand, but from my view it sure looks arbitrary to me. If we needed the government to come in and sort out all these arbitrary "slights" that people feel at not being included in the full "culture" of their city (which now includes advertisements of all things, which I contest is still a ridiculous argument) - our governments wouldn't be worth a damn and neither would our cities.

Like it or not, Canadian cities are full of immigrants and each of them bring something to the table. If you want to be a "full participant", you would need to learn every language of every immigrant in your city, and you are kidding yourself if you think it's good enough to speak English to everyone and you getting a "full experience" just because you are surrounded by English advertisements. I have honestly never heard something more absurd.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Nonsense. I have gone with non-Chinese friends to Chinese-only signage restaurants in Markham. They are not hostile to other ethnicities.

Maybe you are just uncomfortable and intimidated by entering shops with foreign language signage. That's totally fine. Just don't project those issues onto all other people.

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I have walked into stores with Chinese-only signage. Mostly restaurants -- if you walk near one, you can use other clues to determine that it is a restaurant. You don't even need to be a detective. I ate good meals. The folks in the restaurant did their best to speak English and accommodated my requests.

Therefore, it is not exactly the same thing as refusing to serve non-Chinese ethnicities.

I do not speak Mandarin or any other Chinese language.

First off, there might be a bit of a misunderstanding here -- and if it's indeed the case, I'll take the blame for it. The French language word for a store does not cover restaurants and I've always been under the impression it was the same in English. In the posts you've quoted I'm saying "store" and in my head it was clear that it excluded restaurants because it's nearly always obvious from the outside that those are places where one can eat.

I have loved my experience every single time I've set foot in a Chinese-language-only restaurant. I recall my first time in my college days, it was in Ottawa, we were the only non-Chinese there, menus were in Chinese, we managed to order stuff, were wondering how to cut a big piece of meat with chopstick, and were trying to cast subtle glances at other tables' Chinese families to see how they managed to do it... Was very cool and exotic...

But from the outside it was obvious it was a restaurant... in my post what I had in mind were those typical units in strip malls where it's mostly going to be about the sign and the info that's displayed.

If it includes various pictures of plates of food then it's obviously a restaurant. Kinda like how a sign with the RBC lion and the letters "RBC" doesn't explicitly tell you it's a bank.

But seriously, if you have a typical, regular strip mall unit, the bland ones that are all the same from the outside, with tainted windows and all the info on the facade is in Chinese characters, you think the clientele that you will be observing entering/existing the place will be mostly mixed? Not a chance. To non-Chinese, the place might sell office supplies, outdoors equipment, insurance, handjobs, home improvement goods, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

First off, there might be a bit of a misunderstanding here -- and if it's indeed the case, I'll take the blame for it. The French language word for a store does not cover restaurants and I've always been under the impression it was the same in English. In the posts you've quoted I'm saying "store" and in my head it was clear that it excluded restaurants because it's nearly always obvious from the outside that those are places where one can eat.
.

I'd say that historically the word "store" in English did not include restaurants. But I think at some point 30 years ago or so the McDonald's chain started referring to its restaurants as "stores" and eventually most of the major restaurant chains followed suit and if you look at their paperwork it's always the word "store" that is used by most of them.

I suspect the idea of a restaurant being a "store" entered popular speech as a result of this.

[1overcosc]

As a native anglophone, I'd say that referring to a restaurant as a 'store' sounds a bit funny in most contexts.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

As I stated previously, there are some signs in Shanghai, especially in expat-heavy areas, that are only in English. So it's not like this doesn't happen in reverse. I don't think the Chinese get bent out of shape over it.

Just because it happens in other places doesn't mean I think it's right. As an anecdote, there's been a lot of English popping up in Donetsk the past several years and it's pissing a lot of people off.

Originally Posted by Acajack

For those who went to diverse schools where certain specific groups were quite large, was there a rule about kids having to speak English in the school or were they allowed to speak whatever they wanted in the halls, cafeteria, etc.?

I am just wondering, not because of the social engineering aspect some of you might suspect, but on a simple question of disciplinary practicality where a kid can say "I am gonna fucking kill you" or "you're a cocksucking faggot" in a language teachers don't understand...

No, like I've mentioned previously, the amount of Chinese being spoken in the hallways was the same amount as English. No matter where you went in the school you'd be able to hear Chinese being spoken.

Originally Posted by geotag277

Of course it does prevent you from being a full participant in the city. It doesn't allow you to fully understand the cultural significance of the song. If you are sitting in a French restaurant and only hearing French songs, the person beside you who understands French is being a fuller participant at that dinner as they are not only enjoying their meal, they fully understand the cultural connection with the music, as opposed to you, who is just enjoying some unintelligible harmonies.

The argument works for basically anything. If you aren't trained in Latin dance, you aren't a full participant of your city either, because you can't partake in the many Latin dance clubs, and even if you do go there, you won't be speaking the same dancing language. The cultural connection isn't there and you aren't "fully participating".

Nothing is stopping you from learning the lyrics to French songs, learning Latin dance, or learning Mandarin, and each one, whether they advertise or not, are preventing you from being a "full participant" in your city.

The line you draw is arbitrary, whether you want to admit it or not. It might not look arbitrary from where you stand, but from my view it sure looks arbitrary to me. If we needed the government to come in and sort out all these arbitrary "slights" that people feel at not being included in the full "culture" of their city (which now includes advertisements of all things, which I contest is still a ridiculous argument) - our governments wouldn't be worth a damn and neither would our cities.

Like it or not, Canadian cities are full of immigrants and each of them bring something to the table. If you want to be a "full participant", you would need to learn every language of every immigrant in your city, and you are kidding yourself if you think it's good enough to speak English to everyone and you getting a "full experience" just because you are surrounded by English advertisements. I have honestly never heard something more absurd.

Or instead of forcing people to learn every language of every immigrant, how about they just all learn English? That seems to be a much more common sense and simple solution.

I don't understand how you could see language and dance to be the same thing. Yeah if you can't salsa you can't go to salsa clubs. But that's a specialized activity. You shouldn't have to have any special skills just to know what is going on around you.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

No, like I've mentioned previously, the amount of Chinese being spoken in the hallways was the same amount as English. No matter where you went in the school you'd be able to hear Chinese being spoken.
.

I actually see this as more of a practical and disciplinary issue more than a symbolic one. Who's to say that kids aren't calling a teacher "lard ass" or whatever insult behind his or her back. Or saying stuff like "that Mr. Parker is one annoying prick. I'm gonna kick his head in", when the teacher is in the vicinity, but can't understand, but plenty of other kids can.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Or instead of forcing people to learn every language of every immigrant, how about they just all learn English? That seems to be a much more common sense and simple solution.

You aren't forced to learn every language, if you want to be a "full participant" you would, but you aren't interested in being a "full participant", you are only interested in being surrounded by the English language. It's absurd to me how your definition of "full participant" explicitly excludes this aspect of interacting with people in your city, yet includes being able to understand a random advertisement on the side of a bus.

I don't understand how you could see language and dance to be the same thing. Yeah if you can't salsa you can't go to salsa clubs. But that's a specialized activity. You shouldn't have to have any special skills just to know what is going on around you.

I also don't understand how you can elevate the contribution of a random advertisement on the side of a bus to a cultural level above the level of learning something like Latin dance. There is a much bigger hole in your cultural experience of your city by not knowing Latin dance compared to not understanding a random advertisement on the side of a bus. The fact you are even attempting to argue otherwise is patently absurd to me, and just a another sign that the lines we draw are quite arbitrary and the government has no place in trying to sort it all out.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Music is a temporal thing though, whereas advertisements (at least in the context of this thread) are spatial. Once the song's over, it's over.

Advertising is not temporal? Really? That's why I keep seeing all those signs advertising Tar Soap and Premium Leaded Gasoline

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by geotag277

You aren't forced to learn every language, if you want to be a "full participant" you would, but you aren't interested in being a "full participant", you are only interested in being surrounded by the English language. It's absurd to me how your definition of "full participant" explicitly excludes this aspect of interacting with people in your city, yet includes being able to understand a random advertisement on the side of a bus.



I also don't understand how you can elevate the contribution of a random advertisement on the side of a bus to a cultural level above the level of learning something like Latin dance. There is a much bigger hole in your cultural experience of your city by not knowing Latin dance compared to not understanding a random advertisement on the side of a bus. The fact you are even attempting to argue otherwise is patently absurd to me, and just a another sign that the lines we draw are quite arbitrary and the government has no place in trying to sort it all out.

I want to interact with everybody in my city. But if that means I have to learn others' languages to be able to do so I don't think it's very fair. It just makes sense to have one language uniting everybody, and common sense would dictate that you would use the language that is already established in the community. If anything, the ones putting up Chinese bus ads are the ones that have no interest in interacting with anybody other than the Chinese.

[geotag277]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I want to interact with everybody in my city. But if that means I have to learn others' languages to be able to do so I don't think it's very fair. It just makes sense to have one language uniting everybody, and common sense would dictate that you would use the language that is already established in the community. If anything, the ones putting up Chinese bus ads are the ones that have no interest in interacting with anybody other than the Chinese.

If you want to interact with everybody "fully" you have to learn their language, there is no way around that. Just because someone can talk to you in English doesn't mean they have an ability to "fully" express themselves in English. It's not a realistic expectation and people will be at varying stages of expressing themselves in English. To be a true "full participant" and fully interact with people, you can't get around it.

They are targeting Chinese speakers in their advertisements, and it is no different than an accounting firm targeting accountants to work for them by using the Income Tax Act in their advertisements, or a mathematician using calculus in their advertisement, or a bikini advertisement using C-Cup breasts in their advertisements. The distinct you draw is arbitrary and amounts to complaining that you aren't the target market for every single advertisement you see. If you don't understand Chinese, you simply aren't in the demographics that the advertisement is aiming to appeal too. Boo hoo.

[Acajack]

I understand GlassCity's point.

A major part of a community's collective life takes place in retail businesses including restaurants, cafés, corner stores, etc.

If a significant portion of this is written and communicated in a language (and even more in characters) that a significant portion of the population cannot understand, then this may be viewed as exclusionary.

Add to this all of the other stuff that exist in community like social, recreational and sporting clubs, etc. If all of their signage, materials and communications are in the foreign language, then that's another barrier for people who can't read it or speak it.

Of course, the classic libertarian answer is: if you don't like it, open up your own businesses in your language and start your own clubs.

But it's more complicated than that. And it's not necessarily a question of not allowing people from group X to get together and speak Xese, all of which is normal.

It's a question of the functioning and cohesion of the wider community. And is more acute when a specific group becomes a majority in a locality like it has in Richmond. There aren't really that many places like this in Canada.