PHILADELPHIA | Lowrise/General Developments Thread

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Jayfar

Looking for a September 2019 opening of Fashion District Philadelphia now.

City Winery music and dining venue coming to former Gallery mall, now to reopen in Sept. 2019 | Philly.com

…and with construction costs up almost 30% from earlier figures, even though so far the exterior looks like they value-engineered the hell out of it.

In a separate earnings statement Wednesday, Macerich disclosed that the Fashion District project’s budget has grown to as much as $420 million, up from a previous $325 million.

http://investing.macerich.com/phoeni...cle&ID=2361457

Relevant excerpt from Macerich's press release:
Redevelopment continues on The Fashion District of Philadelphia, a three-level retail hub spanning over 800,000 square footage across three city blocks in the heart of downtown Philadelphia. The scope of the project has increased with the addition of numerous entertainment and dining elements. Estimated project costs are now expected to be in the range of $400 - $420 million (or $200 to $210 million at the Company's pro rata share). We have signed leases or are in active lease negotiations with tenants for over 80% of the leasable area. Noteworthy commitments include Century 21, Burlington, H&M, Polo Ralph Lauren, Forever 21, Columbia Sportswear, AMC Theaters, City Winery and Dallas BBQ. The grand opening is planned for September 2019.

Each rendering that's released looks like the worst case version of the previous rendering, which was worse than the one before it.

At least they acknowledge they're not even trying at this point.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Maybe this means they're fixing the rest of it?

Unfortunately the updated rendering clearly shows that they're leaving the facade on the upper floors. The indication is the extra money has gone toward updating the interior to accommodate and lure tenants such as the expansion of the roof for the AMC theaters.

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

Each rendering that's released looks like the worst case version of the previous rendering, which was worse than the one before it.

At least they acknowledge they're not even trying at this point.

They're spending an extra $100 million. Whether or not they're getting most out of their money (and our taxpayer money) can be questioned, but I think it's pretty safe to say they're trying. This is a huge investment for PREIT. They've sunk a ton of money into this and they've sold off a bunch of their other properties to fund this. If this is a failure it's safe to say that all the decision makers at PREIT who spearheaded this project will likely lose their jobs. They're definitely trying.

And I feel like I'm a broken record, but while it is unfortunate what the exterior of this building will look like, the businesses that will be located inside the building, and how successful this is in activating Market St and the surrounding area is roughly 1 million times more important than what the facade looks like. Sounds like they just announced quite a few more interesting tenants and the fact that they're 80% leased (if true) is pretty good news that you're obscuring with the comparatively minor details of the aesthetic looks of the exterior of the building.

[Larry King]

If city winery and all those others are truly committed, this is shaping up to be a nice project. Big win for center city.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by Larry King

If city winery and all those others are truly committed, this is shaping up to be a nice project. Big win for center city.

Agreed. City Winery and the movie theatre alone will bring huge critical mass through that building.

I think it's shaping up.

The upper floors are nasty but the renderings did show that there was a tiny bit of detail added to that area. If they clean it up and add what was shown, it'll be something at least. I think we have to see what happens. The plan can NOT be to leave it untouched.

[iamrobk]

City Winery, a movie theater, it's 80% leased 1 year out... and people are complaining? In the current retail market, this seems like it's shaping up to actually be a big success, exterior complaints aside.

[mcgrath618]

I have come around to accepting that PREIT is doing the best job they can and that this is actually gonna end up being pretty good.
Can't wait for east Market to boom!

[Nova08]

We have signed leases or are in active lease negotiations with tenants for over 80% of the leasable area

This is a very broad statement. We do not know the breakdown between signed and active lease negotiations.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I have come around to accepting that PREIT is doing the best job they can and that this is actually gonna end up being pretty good.

If you put me in an NBA game, I'd technically be doing the best job I could, but failing spectacularly. Remember, tenants come and go, leases are signed and then not renewed...time passes...but the building is there forever and not doing a better job on exterior aesthetics is a remarkable failure.

That said, I've always thought it'd be wise to open up the complex all at once - complete and brand spanking new - and let everyone make an initial impression without construction fencing, taped off areas, and blocked sidewalks.

[Jawnadelphia]

POD Hotel --

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Unfortunately the updated rendering clearly shows that they're leaving the facade on the upper floors. The indication is the extra money has gone toward updating the interior to accommodate and lure tenants such as the expansion of the roof for the AMC theaters.



They're spending an extra $100 million. Whether or not they're getting most out of their money (and our taxpayer money) can be questioned, but I think it's pretty safe to say they're trying. This is a huge investment for PREIT. They've sunk a ton of money into this and they've sold off a bunch of their other properties to fund this. If this is a failure it's safe to say that all the decision makers at PREIT who spearheaded this project will likely lose their jobs. They're definitely trying.

And I feel like I'm a broken record, but while it is unfortunate what the exterior of this building will look like, the businesses that will be located inside the building, and how successful this is in activating Market St and the surrounding area is roughly 1 million times more important than what the facade looks like. Sounds like they just announced quite a few more interesting tenants and the fact that they're 80% leased (if true) is pretty good news that you're obscuring with the comparatively minor details of the aesthetic looks of the exterior of the building.

They're "trying"? I'm sorry. The design of the building will be 100% correlated with "how successful this is in activating Market St".

This isn't a situation where there weren't enough resources. This is a situation in which the decision makers are doing an incredibly poor job of allocating the resources they have. 1. Design matters. 2. Well designed projects don't necessarily cost more than poorly designed projects. That's the point of having a skilled architect to show you the way. They clearly cut corners at every stage and probably aren't paying enough at the top of the food chain (architects, designers) so therefore are getting a shit product. If you don't start with a good foundation, well as they say, garbage in, garbage out.

All of this is clear from the renderings alone.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

They're "trying"? I'm sorry. The design of the building will be 100% correlated with "how successful this is in activating Market St".

This isn't a situation where there weren't enough resources. This is a situation in which the decision makers are doing an incredibly poor job of allocating the resources they have. 1. Design matters. 2. Well designed projects don't necessarily cost more than poorly designed projects. That's the point of having a skilled architect to show you the way. They clearly cut corners at every stage and probably aren't paying enough at the top of the food chain (architects, designers) so therefore are getting a shit product. If you don't start with a good foundation, well as they say, garbage in, garbage out.

All of this is clear from the renderings alone.

You are the one who said they're not trying. I pointed out they're obviously trying. I even mentioned that their performance and the actual value they're extracting from their money and efforts is debatable. I won't argue that they couldn't have a done a better job. I think it is obvious that they could.

But I will argue with your assertion that the design of the building will be 100% correlated with how successful this is in activating Market St. Design in terms of actual layout? Sure. But you have been talking primarily about exterior aesthetic design which is closer to 0% correlation than 100% correlation with how successful the project will be. Honestly who the hell is going to be like "Well I'd love to eat at City Winery and catch a movie but the upper levels of the building exterior just look too shitty."

[Nightman]

Originally Posted by iamrobk

City Winery, a movie theater, it's 80% leased 1 year out... and people are complaining? In the current retail market, this seems like it's shaping up to actually be a big success, exterior complaints aside.

This place is going to have a chick-fil-A! Can you feel the excitement?

The have signed a Burger Fi, there is one down the block on 12th street, aweful

Levis - what is this 1980

Hopefully they take the extra year and try to get some worthwhile tenants. I will give you the city winery is a good grab, other than that I am not impressed.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by allovertown

You are the one who said they're not trying. I pointed out they're obviously trying. I even mentioned that their performance and the actual value they're extracting from their money and efforts is debatable. I won't argue that they couldn't have a done a better job. I think it is obvious that they could.

But I will argue with your assertion that the design of the building will be 100% correlated with how successful this is in activating Market St. Design in terms of actual layout? Sure. But you have been talking primarily about exterior aesthetic design which is closer to 0% correlation than 100% correlation with how successful the project will be. Honestly who the hell is going to be like "Well I'd love to eat at City Winery and catch a movie but the upper levels of the building exterior just look too shitty."

While the degree is debatable, I think ugly exteriors have much more impact on landing and keeping tenants longterm than you are acknowledging. I've seen it time and time again. Take a look at the Capital Grille Building at Broad and Chestnut with its ugly ass pale peach and deteriorating tiles on the first couple floors. There are certainly other reasons, but I think being ugly as sin is part of why no one wants to fill those storefronts.

Also on consumers and the public who use the space. City Winery and AMC are draws, but they are the only reasons I would go here. The environment and ambiance is severely lacking (or seems almost certain to be), and there's nothing so special otherwise about the shopping and dining lined up to overcome that such that I would ever spend any time here over the many other options in the City. While there were certainly site-specific limitations here, compare this to the Grove in LA, and it is a missed opportunity. The environment at the Grove is nice, so people go there without specific dining and shopping plans and end up just playing it "by ear" when they get there.

[jmj]

Why do people comment if EVERYTHING posted in an update is not good enough? this is going to be a mass market shopping complex. What kind of stores do people want or expect? 13 months before opening this is deemed a failure. Seems early!

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by allovertown

You are the one who said they're not trying. I pointed out they're obviously trying. I even mentioned that their performance and the actual value they're extracting from their money and efforts is debatable. I won't argue that they couldn't have a done a better job. I think it is obvious that they could.

But I will argue with your assertion that the design of the building will be 100% correlated with how successful this is in activating Market St. Design in terms of actual layout? Sure. But you have been talking primarily about exterior aesthetic design which is closer to 0% correlation than 100% correlation with how successful the project will be. Honestly who the hell is going to be like "Well I'd love to eat at City Winery and catch a movie but the upper levels of the building exterior just look too shitty."

I could care less about the upper levels.

The entire thing looks shitty, including the street level, which is where people will interact with the building. I've seen nicer tile on the floor of rest stop bathrooms than are on the exterior of the first floor of this building.

[GtownFriend]

Meanwhile.. more steel for the theatre..

on Flickr

[City Wide]

Obviously there's a lot of work going on that we the public can't see, but based on what can be seen-----well, I'd like to think that somewhere in the $400M they claim to be spending they gave some thought to how this big block of real estate would look to the world, but it certainly doesn't look like that was much of a concern.
Beyond that I'm wondering where the shoppers for this large block of retail is going to come from. Either this mall will take dollars away from other CC business, or somehow this mall will somehow get people to spend more bucks then presently are spent, or they got to figure out ways to significantly add more shoppers to the CC mix.
I wonder if they have the chops for that task; hope so. With malls closing all over the place the days when all one had to do was open the doors to ensure success are long since past. My wish is that they would have already started being one of the apartment towers right along side of reconstructing the mall, you know, sortof build in a client base right into the project. But I understand that these guys do malls, not apartments.

[Milksteak]

Originally Posted by City Wide

Obviously there's a lot of work going on that we the public can't see, but based on what can be seen-----well, I'd like to think that somewhere in the $400M they claim to be spending they gave some thought to how this big block of real estate would look to the world, but it certainly doesn't look like that was much of a concern.
Beyond that I'm wondering where the shoppers for this large block of retail is going to come from. Either this mall will take dollars away from other CC business, or somehow this mall will somehow get people to spend more bucks then presently are spent, or they got to figure out ways to significantly add more shoppers to the CC mix.
I wonder if they have the chops for that task; hope so. With malls closing all over the place the days when all one had to do was open the doors to ensure success are long since past. My wish is that they would have already started being one of the apartment towers right along side of reconstructing the mall, you know, sortof build in a client base right into the project. But I understand that these guys do malls, not apartments.

Market East has been woefully underutilized for so long, I think they have a chance to be successful with conventioneers and tourists checking out Reading Terminal. When I lived nearby I would have loved to have a movie theater and supermarket...I think with the right mix of functional stores mixed with touristy stuff, they can be successful. I agree that they should inject more population into the area though, the development across the street should help but this area can (and should) absorb more.

[jmj]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

I could care less about the upper levels.

The entire thing looks shitty, including the street level, which is where people will interact with the building. I've seen nicer tile on the floor of rest stop bathrooms than are on the exterior of the first floor of this building.

hyberbole much?

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by jmj

hyberbole much?

YEEEESSSS....a real life PREIT employee on the forum!