HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Calgary > Transportation & Infrastructure

Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #5881  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2012, 8:56 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 10,097
Quote:
Originally Posted by artvandelay View Post
I always wondered why CT seems reluctant to put retail in the stations. A Timmy's at Anderson or Chinook would be a licence to print money. Perhaps they don't want to encourage people to bring food and drink on the trains? Although everyone does this already so it wouldn't make much difference.
Retail in stations means you need a bathroom for the staff, and more plumbing. I am sure a well equiped retail space would do well, not sure if it would net CT a profit considering the capital cost however.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5882  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2012, 9:24 PM
Dado's Avatar
Dado Dado is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by 93JC View Post


Why? Let's just say for the sake of argument that the equivalent road is three times as wide as the transitway. Trenching/tunnelling the road is therefore three times as expensive as trenching/tunnelling the transitway, itself a pretty expensive proposition in the first place. Assuming we buried this hypothetical road in a tunnel then you also have to account for the substantially larger ventilation system required to keep the air in the tunnel breathable. I fail to see how "on balance" that would be "better off".

I understand that it would make the experience for the transit users 'nicer', in that they'd have some scenery to look at and by contrast it shouldn't really matter to the drivers on the road because they should be looking at the road while they drive instead of sightseeing along the way, but you'd be spending an enormous amount of money to make the transit users experience 'prettier'. That's a pretty hard sell to a cash-strapped municipal government.
I was also thinking in terms of the relative effects on the urban fabric and how it can be crossed. An at-grade 6-lane road doesn't do much for pedestrian, cycling and other local traffic circulation. If it's an expressway, you often end up having to climb up and over; that's bad enough for pedestrians but for cars it means having embankments extending some distance from the expressway. The other option is to go under, which can also be pretty obnoxious.

But if the expressway is sunk in a trench, then the local road network can more-or-less go over it without grade changes. You've got an example of that at Elbow Drive and Glenbow Trail.

In addition, road tolling may well be an easier "sell" for sunken or tunnelled expressways.

In new suburban areas, sinking roads can be accomplished at somewhat less expense. The very nature of modern suburban land development tends to raise grades anyway (basements replace soil, which is piled up around houses, and streets are dug out and filled with gravel and pipes, the soil becoming surplus), so one could split the difference: partly sink major roads, and partly raise local roads over them.


On the other side, with light rail running at grade, it's generally not that difficult to cross (especially if it is in its own RoW) since vehicle movement is generally not so frequent as to make grade crossings problematic and it has a visibility to the public-at-large that sunken systems don't have. Until the vegetation was hacked back recently, the Transitway trench here in Ottawa along Scott Street was largely screened; if it weren't for the ridiculous chainlink fencing it'd be even harder to see. Here's where the vegetation is still in place, and if you know to look you can guess where the Transitway is:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en...28.46,,0,13.52

But it's not "visible". You won't see rapid transit vehicles going across from up the street to the south. The nearby station itself looks a bit like a bunker and it's not too obvious what its function is:

http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=en...=12,22.63,,0,2

You won't see a train stopped in the station nor people waiting for a train as you drive by. It's there, but not really there. It amazes me to this day how few Ottawans are aware of where the Transitway actually runs because we've succeeded in putting it "out of sight, out of mind". That piece of Transitway alignment once was a railway and we should have built a light rail line at grade along it rather than trenching a busway.



So I wasn't really thinking about it in monetary terms, but rather the way it all works with its surroundings. And by that metric, sinking major roads makes more sense than sinking things like light rail lines.
__________________
Ottawa's quasi-official motto: "It can't be done"
Ottawa's quasi-official ethos: "We have a process to follow"
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5883  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2012, 9:37 PM
andasen andasen is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Calgary
Posts: 227
Fixed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I recall being distinctly unimpressed by the way Chinook Station and the shopping mall were integrated, or rather not, when I first saw it.

I think I ended up walking between the Home Depot and Pet Smart on the way back to the station - that seems right since that's where using the overhead walkway would tend to put you.

That area is never going to be pedestrian-friendly or urban in any meaningful sense, at least not at ground level.

After a few visits, here's the basic idea I came up with:

Extend a +15 walkway from the Chinook Centre clear across MacLeod to Chinook Station using the existing overhead walkway as a starting point. I would send it right over the Home Depot, on its roof, though sending it over the laneway between Home Depot and Pet Smart may be necessary instead.

The parking would remain as surface on both sides, but future development would be built "one level up", i.e. so the main entrances would be at the level of the +15 walkway. In effect, everything would end up with a one-story parking level below it (or two, if the developer decides to put in a below-grade level, which they may need to do for foundation reasons). There are a couple of examples of this here in Ottawa and I know Vancouver has several.

Rather than more retail though, it may well work better with office towers/blocks going in over the parking lots so as to help even out the use of the parking. It's tempting to suggest condos as well, but the realist in me doesn't "buy it". But office blocks - well there are office blocks just up MacLeod and being right between a CTrain station and Chinook Station should make it a fairly attractive location for an office.

In time, the +15 would evolve into a kind of pedestrian street in the air. Unlike downtown, there's little risk of "dividing" the pedestrian traffic between two levels.
They at putting in a seperate pedestian overpass at 61st ave that would feed into the second floor of the food court.

Speaking of which I remember reading an article a while back about Chinook Centre having a development permit submitted for an expansion on the south side of the mall. Has anyone looked that that DP or know if the 61st avenue pedestrian bridge will be done in conjunction with this next expansion?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5884  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2012, 10:26 PM
kw5150's Avatar
kw5150 kw5150 is offline
Here and There
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 5,824
What about all of the other major cities with above ground / hybrid LRT systems? Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Denver.

I personally love above ground LRT and so do many other people. It is sunny and scenic


Quote:
Originally Posted by RyLucky View Post
Have you been to Montreal? Tokyo? Toronto? All their metros are underground,
__________________
Renfew, Calgary, Alberta.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5885  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2012, 10:28 PM
93JC 93JC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I was also thinking in terms of the relative effects on the urban fabric and how it can be crossed.

Oh I was perfectly well aware of what you were thinking of.

Quote:
An at-grade 6-lane road doesn't do much for pedestrian, cycling and other local traffic circulation. If it's an expressway, you often end up having to climb up and over; that's bad enough for pedestrians but for cars it means having embankments extending some distance from the expressway. The other option is to go under, which can also be pretty obnoxious.

But if the expressway is sunk in a trench, then the local road network can more-or-less go over it without grade changes. You've got an example of that at Elbow Drive and Glenbow Trail.
You can say the exact same thing about burying a train line. An at-grade train with its own right-of-way does nothing to help local traffic (pedestrian, cycle, automotive). You often end up having to climb up and over. For cars it means having embankments extending some distance from the expressway.

Just look at the NW LRT line and all the overpasses along the route. Yes, there's a 6-lane expressway running along the same route, but if there was no grade separation this would look something like the NE LRT along 36th Street, which is an enormous barrier to local traffic of all sorts.

Quote:
On the other side, with light rail running at grade, it's generally not that difficult to cross (especially if it is in its own RoW) since vehicle movement is generally not so frequent as to make grade crossings problematic and it has a visibility to the public-at-large that sunken systems don't have.
It would be even easier to cross if the line was in a trench or tunnel and pedestrians and cyclists could walk right over it.


Quote:
So I wasn't really thinking about it in monetary terms, but rather the way it all works with its surroundings. And by that metric, sinking major roads makes more sense than sinking things like light rail lines.
Still don't buy it. An at-grade rail line with its own right-of-way is an enormous impediment to local traffic circulation. It cuts neighbourhoods in half just like a road expressway. That's what these rail lines are, really: expressways. They don't interact with the neighbourhood surroundings in any particularly good way. They can, for example Sunnyside Station is pretty well integrated into the neighbourhood, but for the most part they're fenced off and separated from other traffic for the same reason a road would be: to keep the interaction between modes of transport to a minimum and give priority to the expressway's traffic. To make the train as fast as possible.


I don't disagree with you in principle, that a train line CAN be better integrated into a neighbourhood than an expressway, but that depends on the design and purpose of the train. Let's not kid ourselves: the CTrain is for all intents and purposes a suburban commuter system. Its purpose is to get people to and from the 'burbs to and from downtown as quickly as possible. It's not a tram or a trolley. The CTrain, along most of its length, is more like this:



than this:




I also think roads can be better built for pedestrians and cyclists, but that's a whole other discussion.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5886  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2012, 11:00 PM
RyLucky's Avatar
RyLucky RyLucky is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by kw5150 View Post
What about all of the other major cities with above ground / hybrid LRT systems? Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver, Seattle, Portland, Denver.

I personally love above ground LRT and so do many other people. It is sunny and scenic
I like the above ground lines too, I was just talking about integrating more retail into TODs, specifically right at the station.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5887  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2012, 11:30 PM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 8,988
Quote:
Originally Posted by 93JC View Post

I don't disagree with you in principle, that a train line CAN be better integrated into a neighbourhood than an expressway, but that depends on the design and purpose of the train. Let's not kid ourselves: the CTrain is for all intents and purposes a suburban commuter system. Its purpose is to get people to and from the 'burbs to and from downtown as quickly as possible. It's not a tram or a trolley. The CTrain, along most of its length, is more like this:



than this:




I also think roads can be better built for pedestrians and cyclists, but that's a whole other discussion.
Yeah the Ctrain is interesting. Most of it is more like a commuter train, based on the sort of ROW it follows, station configuration, and station spacing. Then once it approaches the innercity, it becomes more like a subway/LRT (Lions Park, Sunnyside, the Stampede stations, 39th avenue), and then once downtown it's more streetcar-like with it's stops only couple of blocks apart.

I will say that some of the newer stations, many of the WLRT ones and some of the newer far NE and far South ones break that pattern a bit.
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Development Watch - Forums
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5888  
Old Posted Dec 19, 2012, 11:49 PM
93JC 93JC is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 932
Exactly. It does a little bit of everything. Out on 36th Street NE, along Crowchild Trail and down Macleod it's a commuter train; it won't ever be integrated into the neighbourhood like a street car would be, because at that point it doesn't work like a street car (like it does downtown along 7th Ave). If Crowchild Trail didn't exist and the NW LRT track was still there, at grade, we'd still have the cross-streets going over it. It would still be as much of a detriment to the flow of local pedestrian, cycling and automotive traffic as the Crowchild expressway is, because it's not meant to interact with the surrounding neighbourhoods: it's meant to get people downtown as quickly as possible. It's meant to cut through the neighbourhoods, to bypass them almost entirely.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5889  
Old Posted Dec 25, 2012, 2:46 AM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 8,988
I've often thought that late night transit service should simply follow the LRT + BRT routes, so NW-S (201), W-NE (202), N-SE (301 and 305), and NW-E (305). I guess the SW gets a bit shafted though.

Anyway, another option might be to look at the xmas day service which I'm guessing has been calculated in some intelligent way:

201, 202, #3 (redundant south of downtown), #1, and 72/73 circle routes (I'm excluding the 300/100 airport routes which wouldn't be the aim of late night service)

So NW-S, W-NE, N, NW-E, and a circle route.
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Development Watch - Forums
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5890  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2012, 8:11 AM
elconsulto's Avatar
elconsulto elconsulto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
I've often thought that late night transit service should simply follow the LRT + BRT routes, so NW-S (201), W-NE (202), N-SE (301 and 305), and NW-E (305). I guess the SW gets a bit shafted though.

Anyway, another option might be to look at the xmas day service which I'm guessing has been calculated in some intelligent way:

201, 202, #3 (redundant south of downtown), #1, and 72/73 circle routes (I'm excluding the 300/100 airport routes which wouldn't be the aim of late night service)

So NW-S, W-NE, N, NW-E, and a circle route.
they could come up with a few slow but comprehensive circular routes for the far suburban quadrants so that if you lived in auburn bay for example the bus would take you to the entrance of the neighborhood and you would only have top walk about fifteen minutes instead of all the way from the nearest bus terminal for brt.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5891  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2012, 6:51 PM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 8,988
That's an interesting concept, routes which just hit one stop per community
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Development Watch - Forums
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5892  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2012, 9:17 PM
mersar's Avatar
mersar mersar is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Calgary, AB
Posts: 10,089
Was up in the NW last night, and good progress happening at Tuscany. The station is slowly rising from the ground, the piers for the pedestrian bridge on the north side are poured, and 1 of 2 on the south side are poured too. One wall of the Royal Oak substation is up too, along with the retaining walls to hold that park'n'ride lot up. As well, rail has been delivered and is sitting just east of the new station.
__________________

Live or work in the Beltline? Check out the Official Beltline web site here
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5893  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2012, 9:47 PM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 8,988
If you have a book of $2.75 tickets can you still use them as of January first?
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Development Watch - Forums
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5894  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2012, 9:55 PM
Full Mountain's Avatar
Full Mountain Full Mountain is offline
YIMBY
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,940
Quote:
Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
If you have a book of $2.75 tickets can you still use them as of January first?
Officially: No, you are required to take your tickets to customer service and pay the difference to receive the new ones.

Unofficially: Yes, most operators don't seem to care, worst case you can always claim ignorance.

<tangent> I really hope CT gets the Connect system up and running ASAP so I can load one up like I do with ParkPlus and use as needed rather than deal with tickets that go out of date every year.
__________________
Incremental Photo - @PhotogX_1

Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own not those of any affiliated organizations.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5895  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2012, 10:01 PM
DizzyEdge's Avatar
DizzyEdge DizzyEdge is offline
My Spoon Is Too Big
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Calgary
Posts: 8,988
I suppose you could just drop in the ticket and a quarter.
__________________
Concerned about protecting Calgary's built heritage?
www.CalgaryHeritage.org
News - Development Watch - Forums
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5896  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2012, 10:25 PM
Aegis's Avatar
Aegis Aegis is offline
Analyst, Commercial Mtgs
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Bankview
Posts: 1,458
I have used old tickets many times on busses and added the difference in cash, nobody has ever said anything to me about it. I thought that's how it was supposed to go.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5897  
Old Posted Dec 27, 2012, 10:35 PM
Full Mountain's Avatar
Full Mountain Full Mountain is offline
YIMBY
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,940
Quote:
Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
I suppose you could just drop in the ticket and a quarter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aegis View Post
I have used old tickets many times on busses and added the difference in cash, nobody has ever said anything to me about it. I thought that's how it was supposed to go.
I believe this is an acceptable alternative as well
__________________
Incremental Photo - @PhotogX_1

Disclaimer: All opinions expressed are my own not those of any affiliated organizations.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5898  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2012, 12:06 AM
Ferreth Ferreth is offline
IMHO
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Calgary
Posts: 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
If you have a book of $2.75 tickets can you still use them as of January first?
I asked the CT security people about this one day when they were waiting for the next train to pull up to check. They said they consider the previous price ticket to be acceptable proof of payment, although if you push it with versions way back they might choose to give you a ticket.

CT should go the way of Canada Post and just not print price on the tickets. It's not like people are going to buy a 10 year supply of tickets expecting to save a bunch of money on fare increases. Might even help a bit as occasional users will not be afraid to buy a book on the fear that it will expire at some point.
__________________
---
My Flickr account
My Ratsofrass blog
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5899  
Old Posted Dec 28, 2012, 5:38 PM
freeweed's Avatar
freeweed freeweed is offline
Home of Hyperchange
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dynamic City, Alberta
Posts: 17,567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferreth View Post
CT should go the way of Canada Post and just not print price on the tickets. It's not like people are going to buy a 10 year supply of tickets expecting to save a bunch of money on fare increases. Might even help a bit as occasional users will not be afraid to buy a book on the fear that it will expire at some point.
Most brilliant idea ever.

Sometimes I think that too many Boomer-age types have their brains stuck in the 1970s, and think that inflation is out of control and that we will see massive price increases every year. I mean really - who the hell even cares if a few people buy a couple of extra books of tickets, and get a "deal" for a few weeks? Wow, the extra $2 for a book really is gonna hurt CT's bottom line.

When Canada Post implemented the P stamps, I was floored at such forward thinking.

Mind you, I'm still waiting for CT to sell me an annual pass. Such a pain in the ass to have to deal with every month, when I'll be riding the train daily until retirement.
__________________
Suburbs are the friends with benefits of the housing world.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #5900  
Old Posted Jan 2, 2013, 7:43 PM
lubicon's Avatar
lubicon lubicon is offline
Suburban dweller
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Calgary - our road planners are as bad as yours Edmonton
Posts: 4,532
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferreth View Post
I asked the CT security people about this one day when they were waiting for the next train to pull up to check. They said they consider the previous price ticket to be acceptable proof of payment, although if you push it with versions way back they might choose to give you a ticket.

CT should go the way of Canada Post and just not print price on the tickets. It's not like people are going to buy a 10 year supply of tickets expecting to save a bunch of money on fare increases. Might even help a bit as occasional users will not be afraid to buy a book on the fear that it will expire at some point.
Brilliant idea. I am still working on a ticket book from several fare increases ago (I think it's $2 or maybe $2.25 or something). Always thought it was stupid that they might expire before I could use them all.
__________________
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.

Albert Einstein
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Alberta & British Columbia > Calgary > Transportation & Infrastructure
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 4:16 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.