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  #1  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2012, 6:21 AM
J. Will J. Will is offline
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Toronto's Indy Coffee Shop Boom

http://www.thegridto.com/life/food-d...e-shoponomics/

Coffee-shoponomics

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Since 2008, an estimated 100 new independent cafés have opened in downtown Toronto, offering premium espressos at premium prices—usually within bean-throwing distance of five or six other coffee shops. How the hell do they all stay in business?

Last month, two men came into El Almacen, the two-year-old Argentinean-influenced café at Queen and Dovercourt, ordered some coffees and asked the café owner, Silvio Rodriguez, a lot of questions: Where did he buy the tall brass Elektra espresso machine and how much does it cost to operate? What type of beans does he use and how’s business doing? Rodriguez had seen the men going in and out of the Great Hall venue across the street in recent weeks, supervising a number of café-equipment deliveries. He asked why they were so curious, and they told him they were the owners of the Lakeview Lunch on Dundas and Parkdale café The Abbott, and that, in the next month or so, they would be opening a new coffee shop not 50 feet from El Almacen, across from the already bustling Starbucks and within a five-minute walk of a half-dozen other cafés.

“What’s that going to do to my business?,” a worried Rodriguez asks himself now, looking across the street. “What’s that going to do to my customers?”
It’s a question coffee-shop owners all over Toronto are asking, as independent cafés continue to colonize our retail landscape. Along certain stretches of Queen West, Leslieville, Dundas and Kensington, there are independent espresso bars, often run by baristas, on literally every single block. Few local industries, except perhaps condominiums, rival the growth of cafés. But with coffee shops opening on top of each other, serving identical products at similar price points, many owners, such as Rodriguez, are wondering how they will stay in business and continue to grow. Is our café boom sustainable, or are we about to witness the bursting of a foamy latte bubble?
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  #2  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2012, 6:40 PM
llamaorama llamaorama is online now
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I wonder how these places actually differentiate themselves?

I work for a, uh, major retailer, one that often has, uh, major seattle-based chain cafes in them. From my limited experience covering breaks for the baristas and reading all the official training materials its given me some perspective. For instance espresso is a fine solution of tiny particles of coffee and if you do not do anything with it after a few seconds it will settle and not mix right. Lots of things like that. When the commercial grade espresso that costs as much as a new car broke down, I made my self really sick as a unbiased taster testing like 5 or 6 double shots to help calibrate the thing.

But for all the fluff about quality and training and whether or not the baristas follow some kind of authentic european tradition, its still coffee. You can argue with me, but I truly believe that the reason why these businesses are successful is because people are literally addicted to caffeine. If you can create some kind of psychological trick with your presentation and experience to really maximize the amount of "gratification" upon entering then your regulars won't be able to live without you. They'll come in and drop 4 dollars for a cup of something that costs a fraction of that, and a little stand no more than 300 sq feet in a low traffic location can pull down like 4 grand a week.

To think people used to drink that mud at work for free, too And all you really get out of it is 5 minutes of being hyper, 30 minutes of having to pee, and 5 hours of dull headache.
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  #3  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2012, 9:25 PM
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Coffee shops from Indianapolis or "indie coffee shops"?
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  #4  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2012, 9:28 PM
TarHeelJ TarHeelJ is offline
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Don't most cities offer these? Every city that I'm familiar with has at least a few homegrown coffee shops with clever names.
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Old Posted Feb 27, 2012, 10:51 PM
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Apparently the tens of thousands of new downtown condo dwellers really love their coffee.
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  #6  
Old Posted Feb 27, 2012, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TarHeelJ View Post
Don't most cities offer these? Every city that I'm familiar with has at least a few homegrown coffee shops with clever names.
you have no idea just how many of these things there are. for example, within a 5 minute walk of my home there are about 7 independent coffee shops, in addition to the normal starbucks, tim hortons and coffee time chains.
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Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 12:18 AM
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This is definitely going to be bigger than the bubble tea shop boom fer shure!

All of Thunder Bay's independent coffee shops have clustered together in the last part of the city that is Tim Hortons free—downtown. I wonder how long it will last?
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Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Nick. View Post
you have no idea just how many of these things there are. for example, within a 5 minute walk of my home there are about 7 independent coffee shops, in addition to the normal starbucks, tim hortons and coffee time chains.
I realize there are a lot of them there, but moreso than say, NYC or Chicago or Boston?
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  #9  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 12:28 AM
miketoronto miketoronto is offline
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Interesting, as I actually think it is pretty hard to find indy coffee shops in Toronto. Yes there may be a couple on Queen West, but overall they are few and far between with the takeover of Starbucks.

One thing that bugs me with a lot of coffee shops is that they close a like 6pm.
Totally makes going to one in the evening a bug.
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  #10  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
Interesting, as I actually think it is pretty hard to find indy coffee shops in Toronto. Yes there may be a couple on Queen West, but overall they are few and far between with the takeover of Starbucks.
Are you kidding? These things are EVERYWHERE outside of the downtown core.
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  #11  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 12:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by llamaorama View Post

But for all the fluff about quality and training and whether or not the baristas follow some kind of authentic european tradition, its still coffee. You can argue with me, but I truly believe that the reason why these businesses are successful is because people are literally addicted to caffeine. If you can create some kind of psychological trick with your presentation and experience to really maximize the amount of "gratification" upon entering then your regulars won't be able to live without you. They'll come in and drop 4 dollars for a cup of something that costs a fraction of that, and a little stand no more than 300 sq feet in a low traffic location can pull down like 4 grand a week.

To think people used to drink that mud at work for free, too And all you really get out of it is 5 minutes of being hyper, 30 minutes of having to pee, and 5 hours of dull headache.
As a caffeine addict (I don't remember a day in the last few months without drinking coffee) I take umbrage with your statements. I only drink black coffee and espresso, so I don't spend a lot when I go out for coffee. There is bad coffee - the work Bunn machine (Bunn machines often get the water hot enough, but brew too fast - creating weak coffee) with the warmer left on too long, okay coffee - Starbucks and other chains, good coffee - decent beans and with decently trained staff with proper machines or french presses, and then there is great coffee - locally roasted beans, properly & freshly ground, and brewed in a manner that brings out the flavor of a particular bean. And espresso made incorrectly (wrong beans, not freshly ground, not tamped properly) can taste like poison without crema. Good espresso has a beautiful crema, lacks bitterness, and can taste a bit like bittersweet chocolate.

I've found that the places with the "show" machines, nice looking barristas, and nice interiors make okay coffee while places that make really good and exceptional coffee lack some or all of the aforementioned qualities.
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  #12  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by vid View Post
This is definitely going to be bigger than the bubble tea shop boom fer shure!

All of Thunder Bay's independent coffee shops have clustered together in the last part of the city that is Tim Hortons free—downtown. I wonder how long it will last?
There are a lot of crappy independent coffee houses that should close so the places with good coffee can survive.
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Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 12:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
Interesting, as I actually think it is pretty hard to find indy coffee shops in Toronto. Yes there may be a couple on Queen West, but overall they are few and far between with the takeover of Starbucks.
There's a LOT more than a couple on Queen West. Pretty much every corner of the inner-city outside of the financial core has a bunch.

http://www.blogto.com/toronto/the_be...nto_east_side/

http://www.blogto.com/toronto/the_be...nto_west_side/

These lists are getting out of date too.

The early closing comment is fair, but most of these are small operations and it simply isn't profitable for them to be open in the evening. There are still non-Starbucks options for this however.
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Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 1:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miketoronto View Post
Interesting, as I actually think it is pretty hard to find indy coffee shops in Toronto. Yes there may be a couple on Queen West, but overall they are few and far between with the takeover of Starbucks.

One thing that bugs me with a lot of coffee shops is that they close a like 6pm.
Totally makes going to one in the evening a bug.
Lol.
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Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 1:51 AM
johnnypd johnnypd is offline
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wow, looks like toronto has established a good coffee scene pretty quickly. shows how fast this kind of thing can take off.

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I've found that the places with the "show" machines, nice looking barristas, and nice interiors make okay coffee while places that make really good and exceptional coffee lack some or all of the aforementioned qualities.
i wouldn't necessarily agree with this entirely as plenty of places with good machines and equipment also pump out great coffee, but i would say that the show machines, interiors etc don't always translate into good coffee.

i visited a coffee place in Orange County quite a lot in the summer as its pretty much the only place in the county doing decent coffee. it has all the machines you want, it dresses its baristas up in white lab coats, people talk you through the flavour profiles etc. unfortunately the end product is pretty mediocre. i just dont think the people behind it have the broad experience and according taste level to pull it off. they just bought all the shiny toys and expected the coffee to automatically follow from that. i'd send 'em to Melbourne for a month so they can sample the world's best coffee culture.

similarly the finest filter coffees i've had come from a guy working at a tiny stall with very little equipment and 4 seats out front. he just knows how to make a great tasting cup and sources/looks after his beans properly.
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Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 1:59 AM
J. Will J. Will is offline
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Originally Posted by TarHeelJ View Post
I realize there are a lot of them there, but moreso than say, NYC or Chicago or Boston?
The impressive thing is:

"Since 2008, an estimated 100 new independent cafés have opened in downtown Toronto"

100 NEW independent cafes in the last four years alone, in the downtown core alone. That's in addition to all the independent cafes that were already there before 2008, plus all the Starbucks, Second Cup, Timothys, Tim Hortons, Coffee Time, and all the other chains.
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  #17  
Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 2:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Cleveland Brown View Post
There are a lot of crappy independent coffee houses that should close so the places with good coffee can survive.
Well, the thing about them is they serve niches. There is the artists coffee house, the old people's coffee house, the gay coffee house, the students' coffee house, the other peoples' coffee house, etc. If they closed, people would have to mix with different kinds of people, and no one wants that! That would be too much like Tim Hortons.

Our Starbucks is attached to the Chapters book store, and is always full of university students with MacBooks who break the rule about taking unpurchased books in there, and suburban soccer moms who still think it is 2003 and drinking coffee at Starbucks is the thing to do.
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Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 2:03 AM
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100 coffee shops opening up in such a short span - that is quite a few!

I wonder what Toronto's per-capita coffee shop numbers are? Someone should do the calculations.

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Originally Posted by TarHeelJ View Post
I realize there are a lot of them there, but moreso than say, NYC or Chicago or Boston?
Those cities aren't really known for coffee - the PacNW is. Thought I'd throw this out there - my city (PDX) has ~780+ coffee shops & ~583k residents. [1] [2] [3]. That equates to only ~747 (or fewer) residents per coffee shop.

Here's a map

As far as how do multiple coffee shops survive - I work in a building that has 4 coffee shops in the first floor! Quite amazing, even if it is at a university.
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Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 2:06 AM
miketoronto miketoronto is offline
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There's a LOT more than a couple on Queen West. Pretty much every corner of the inner-city outside of the financial core has a bunch.
We need more in the heart of the city including the financial district.
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Old Posted Feb 28, 2012, 2:07 AM
TarHeelJ TarHeelJ is offline
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
100 coffee shops opening up in such a short span - that is quite a few!

I wonder what Toronto's per-capita coffee shop numbers are? Someone should do the calculations.


Thought I'd throw this out there - my city has ~780+ coffee shops & ~583k residents. [1] [2] [3]. That equates to only ~747 (or fewer) residents per coffee shop.

As far as how do multiple coffee shops survive - I work in a building that has 4 coffee shops in the first floor! Quite amazing, even if it is at a university.
Here is one survey of American cities...http://www.cnbc.com/id/43896943/Amer...einated_Cities

And another...http://www.marketwatch.com/story/wes...e-shops-survey

But both include chains.
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