Have Canadian Conservatives lost sight of what it means to be such?

[Sarah89]

You have Doug Ford saying he's a big ''Republican fan'' and now more recently the Sam Oosterhoof mess comparing abortion to ''the Holocaust''. The supporters in Ontario and other parts of Canada seem to be picking up American-flavoured ideas about Conservatism. Phrases like ''Lib-tard'' and ''baby killing femnazis'' are all over Canadian social media.

What has happened here? Conservatives in Canada are ''Tories''. They never acted like this or included paleo-conservative nonsense to this extent in their politics. Their supporters used to be normal people who just wanted fiscal responsibility. It wasn't like this in the Harper years.

Have they lost sight of their own politics and started copying down south?

I just don't understand how or why they strayed into this theocratic, identity politics nonsense.

[milomilo]

There is no such thing as a conservative, everyone has their own idea of what it means. Hence the big C Conservative's lack of purpose.

[Sarah89]

Originally Posted by milomilo

There is no such thing as a conservative, everyone has their own idea of what it means. Hence the big C Conservative's lack of purpose.

How come in 2011 this language, ideas and beliefs were not common? Conservatives in Canada behaved themselves or had a Tory identity in the Harper years. These days, they've gone into an identity that is not their own (Republican lite). Very sad. And it shows the Canadian inferiority complex yet again.

[urbandreamer]

Doug is basically an American businessman and Sam grew up within 25 miles of the US border. Also he's Dutch Reformed - I knew plenty of these people growing up and they make the Amish look liberal.

[MonctonRad]

Social conservativism is a movement. They have an agenda and the ability to organize.

Old time fiscal progressive conservativism is not a movement per se. They are not so organized. They have been displaced within the party by the more aggressive social conservatives, which is most unfortunate.

There are still a lot of progressive conservatives out there. They have just been silenced by the more shrill reactionary wing. I'm very sad about this, but I am not sure what can be done about it.

The same thing happens on the left too BTW, the Liberal agenda is pushed by the Woketarians and social justice activists. The effect however is muted by the presence of the NDP and the Greens, where some of the most passionate zealots have taken up residence.

It is a sad state of affairs. National discourse has been hijacked by the extremists on both sides of the spectrum. Politics lies in the art of compromise. Extremism is not a good situation for the body politic...……..

[Sarah89]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Social conservativism is a movement. They have an agenda and the ability to organize.

Old time fiscal progressive conservativism is not a movement per se. They are not so organized. They have been displaced within the party by the more aggressive social conservatives, which is most unfortunate.

There are still a lot of progressive conservatives out there. They have just been silenced by the more shrill reactionary wing. I'm very sad about this, but I am not sure what can be done about it.

The same thing happens on the left too BTW, the Liberal agenda is pushed by the Woketarians and social justice activists. The effect however is muted by the presence of the NDP and the Greens, where some of the most passionate zealots have taken up residence.

It is a sad state of affairs. National discourse has been hijacked by the extremists on both sides of the spectrum. Politics les in the art of compromise. Extremism is not a good situation for the body politic...……..

By the other side of the coin... the ''WOKE'' stuff is almost exclusively American and rooted deeply in race and slavery. Canadians also seem to be trying to absorb this type of culture as our own as well. This is yet another movement that doesn't originate or fit here in the way it does down south.


It's all very sad. Canadians are obsessed with the United States to the point of dragging over political cultures right across our own border. The obsession has never been worse since we've had this level of social media. Again, this is the symptom of the 'inferiority complex'. Importation of American partisan obsessed extremism culture can only be addressed when Canadians get a stronger sense of identity. That is the cure.

[p_xavier]

The party will get my vote if they unfund universities where the radicals are emerging. I haven't heard much about that.

[MolsonExport]

You think that de-funding universities is a good idea?
Because of...what?

Asinine pronouncements like this are part of the reason that I cannot align myself with the conservatives.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

You think that de-funding universities is a good idea?
Because of...what?

Asinine pronouncements like this are part of the reason that I cannot align myself with the conservatives.

Because spending money on humanities for what?! To create other useless blue haired starbucks barristas?

[acottawa]

I wonder if it is just that people are getting more ignorant. It wasn’t that long ago that most people subscribed to a daily newspaper. Even if it was for the ads or horoscopes or baseball scores, there is a consistent source of information coming into the house. This was supplemented by TV newscasts that were fairly widely watched.

You read online forums and people don’t seem to know basic things about how the government works, or basic scientific concepts. When everything is social media and echo chambers I think people become very vulnerable to various movements that champion ignorance.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by p_xavier

Because spending money on humanities for what?! To create other useless blue haired starbucks barristas?

This is a ridiculous statement. If you think universities only churn out "blue haired starbucks barristas", then you've got an awful lot to learn. ignorance epitomized.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...00219b-eng.htm
https://www.univcan.ca/universities/facts-and-stats/

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I wonder if it is just that people are getting more ignorant. It wasn’t that long ago that most people subscribed to a daily newspaper. Even if it was for the ads or horoscopes or baseball scores, there is a consistent source of information coming into the house. This was supplemented by TV newscasts that were fairly widely watched.

You read online forums and people don’t seem to know basic things about how the government works, or basic scientific concepts. When everything is social media and echo chambers I think people become very vulnerable to various movements that champion ignorance.

start telling this to the people that advocate for de-funding universities.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I wonder if it is just that people are getting more ignorant. It wasn’t that long ago that most people subscribed to a daily newspaper. Even if it was for the ads or horoscopes or baseball scores, there is a consistent source of information coming into the house. This was supplemented by TV newscasts that were fairly widely watched.

You read online forums and people don’t seem to know basic things about how the government works, or basic scientific concepts. When everything is social media and echo chambers I think people become very vulnerable to various movements that champion ignorance.

My guess would also be that fewer people read books. I also wonder if the quality of news sources has declined or become more divided along party lines.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by p_xavier

Because spending money on humanities for what?! To create other useless blue haired starbucks barristas?

Once upon a time, people went to university and got BAs in disciplines such as sociology or history not so much because the country had a crying shortage of sociologists and historians, but because it taught you critical thinking, which was useful in later applying to graduate or professional programs, and, if you were unsuccessful in this, to employers who wanted a managerial class able to think in critical terms.

This ideal has been lost. Employers are now looking for people with skills training, and there are fewer middle management positions out there for graduating BAs to find employment in. Companies also tend to want less critical thinking in their middle managers too. They are more interested in the bottom line, and thus tend to value business graduates who can balance a ledger and find efficiencies.

I also think that sociology, womens studies, and political science programs in Canadian universities have also thrown the ideal of "critical thinking" out the window, especially within the last 10 years. These programs are now agenda driven and have drunk the Kool-Aid. You either buy into the agenda, or you are publicly shamed, humiliated and ostracised, or, cancelled. Thought provoking ideas or contrarian positions are no longer welcome in Canadian universities. You only raise your voice in opposition to the current Woketarian orthodoxy at the peril of losing your reputation or your job.

This blind adherence to accepted ideology is the reason why people like p_xavier are so fed up that they think defunding is necessary.

Now, defunding is obviously not the way to go. We should instead be trying to find ways in order to liberalize civil debate in our universities and create a culture where more divergent views become acceptable. In other words, get back to the situation as had existed back in the 1980s. If liberal arts programs continue on their current course however, they will become increasingly disconnected from societal reality, and will become the source of increasing radicalization of their political opposition. I don't think anyone wants that...……...

[svlt]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

This is a ridiculous statement. If you think universities only churn out "blue haired starbucks barristas", then you've got an awful lot to learn. ignorance epitomized.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/dail...00219b-eng.htm
https://www.univcan.ca/universities/facts-and-stats/

And what the hell is even wrong with a young affable, blue haired Starbucks barista? Would happily buy a coffee from her (or him, but very few guys color their hair blue).

[biguc]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

There are still a lot of progressive conservatives out there. They have just been silenced by the more shrill reactionary wing. I'm very sad about this, but I am not sure what can be done about it.

The recent Saskatchewan vs. Alberta: Who is Conservativest? thread had me thinking about this. Saskatchewan having popular crown corporations doesn't make it not conservative. The people of Saskatchewasn love their crown corporations--they are a part of their society they want to protect. That's a conservative impulse. Conservatives don't have to be slash-and-burn Thatcherites. But if the definition of conservative in Canada is, "like a pennywise Albertan redneck", that puts conservatives all over the country in the unenviable position of having to dig out from under that image. It will take a strong counter narrative.

Originally Posted by acottawa

I wonder if it is just that people are getting more ignorant. It wasn’t that long ago that most people subscribed to a daily newspaper. Even if it was for the ads or horoscopes or baseball scores, there is a consistent source of information coming into the house. This was supplemented by TV newscasts that were fairly widely watched.

You read online forums and people don’t seem to know basic things about how the government works, or basic scientific concepts. When everything is social media and echo chambers I think people become very vulnerable to various movements that champion ignorance.

Yep. I don't want to get too misty about the past because big news was responsible for a lot of dumb groupthink--satanists in the '80s, Monica Lewinsky in the '90s, the Bush era... but there was something to be said for most people having common points of reference.

[kool maudit]

Conservatism isn't an ideology as such, it is just a temperament within liberalism, and it has been in decline since 1989 because the fall of the USSR obviated the need for its sort of hawkish, defence-oriented stance regarding this liberalism.

What would Canadian conservatives conserve? The defunding of universities wouldn't conserve anything, obviously. Neither does the despoiling of the environment that comes from attempting to conserve the profits of extractive industries; again, this was useful when things like oil and steel were being counted against the supposed reserves of the Soviets, but hegemonic liberalism does not need this precise sort of focus.

Social conservatism in the Western context is just Christianity, and Canada is no longer an observant Christian society.

I just don't know what Canadian conservatism could orient itself around. The Empire that was the focus of our historic Loyalism is dead, leaving only a ghostly penumbra of bankers, spies and foundations. The Church is marginal. Hegemonic liberalism conserves the financial workings underpinning our economic lives just fine, much to the chagrin of the left, who made an alliance with it for its social permissions. These are changing anyway; in an age of central bank bubbles, what even is "fiscal conservatism"? The link between our prosperity and any conventional approach to national balance sheets is severed, particularly in Canada given its debt levels.

I wouldn't know where to suggest Canadian conservatives might begin. I see no firm footing.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I just don't know what Canadian conservatism could orient itself around.

Our neighbours to the south, as the CPC has been doing more and more of since the Harper days.

[kool maudit]

Anglo-American liberalism no longer sees a use for the type of internal divisions that created "conservatism".

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Our neighbours to the south.

What about them?

Edit: Oh, I see your edit re Harper. Yeah. Having a neocon prime minister was a little strange, given that we entirely lack the sort of force-projection ability that neoconservatism is based on.

The US right is going through a process that can't easily be mimicked or predicted.