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  #101  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 8:21 PM
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Originally Posted by freeweed View Post

Actually, I never thought to pay close attention to this when visiting - is it PFK on one side of the river, KFC on the other? A strict divide in Ottawa-Gatineau?

.
KFC is KFC in Ottawa and PFK in Gatineau.

Business Depot is Bureau en gros in Gatineau.

The Bay is La Baie (now Baie d'Hudson).

It really depends on the chain. Canadian Tire is Canadian Tire everywhere. As are Best Buy, Future Shop.

The Home Depot and The Brick drop the "The" in Quebec though. So in their ads it sounds like "chez Home Dépôt" or "chez Brick (brick pronounced like French word "brique").
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  #102  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 8:35 PM
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Yeah, I was being tongue in cheek. "Proper Nouns" are just improper nouns that we appropriate into a name, making them "Proper". There's literally no difference between "Blue Bomber" and "Redblack" beyond the decade they were coined in.

The analogy to company names is apt. But companies don't often travel like a team does. Do they plan on calling them one name when playing at home, and the other name when playing in Montreal? Or do they call them both names at home, one name in Vancouver, and another in Montreal? And what happens if New Brunswick ever gets a CFL franchise?

The whole thing just seems awkward and I can't think of a similar precedent. Unless people still misspell "Canadiens" a lot. We certainly did as kids.

For the record, I've never in my life heard a single person use "Larks" as a nickname for the Als. I was being a little more than tongue in cheek with that one.

Actually, I never thought to pay close attention to this when visiting - is it PFK on one side of the river, KFC on the other? A strict divide in Ottawa-Gatineau?

Oh and lastly, I prefer the French name. "Red and Black" I could have gone with. "Redblack" just sounds stupid.
I thought you were being a little tongue-in-cheek, but I went with it anyway. I've heard Larks a few times but it's rare. As for when/how they will use it, I'm sure it will just be a situation where whatever language is being spoken, that's the name that will be used (no matter the location it's done) along with signage for both around their own stadium.



And as far as the Raptors go... Yes they will be profitable, partly because the Leafs are so successful and can force ticket sales, and party because they play in an American League and mooch some American TV rights money. If Leafs season ticket holders didn't have to purchase Raptors tickets, the Raptors wouldn't bring in $31 mill in gate receipts... And who knows what their profit would be then? That's what I mean by a floor below them. They don't need to stand on their own merits. They get "charity" from other MLSE properties and from the value the NBA has in the USA. There is also a bit of a shell game regarding NBA and MLB media deals for the Toronto teams. As the media outlets own the teams, they can pay whatever they feel they need to to make the team look profitable, regardless of whether they will make money on the contract or not.

And about being a sports powerhouse, isn't it the World Class American cities that Toronto wants to be in with? In which case it is failing miserably having the 21st ranked team by value in both the MLB and NBA (remember to most in the US, the NHL had about the same 'esteem' as the CFL does in your eyes, so the fact that Toronto has the most valuable team by a large margin doesn't register in their list of things that matter).

Also, there is no reason to put quotes on pro when talking about the CFL.

Last edited by Nathan; Nov 6, 2013 at 8:45 PM.
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  #103  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 8:38 PM
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Here for fun is the list of North American sports teams whose names are generally pronounced in French by Canada's francophone media and by francophone sports fans. There is no rhyme or reason to this practice: some names like Calgary Flames or Detroit Tigers could easily be said in French but are not, and it has nothing to do with history as Nashville Predators and Florida Panthers are fairly recent creations.

Note also that this is for spoken references only. Generally in newspaper articles the English spelling is used - but not always.



Canadiens de Montréal
Sénateurs d’Ottawa
Lions de la Colombie-Britannique
Esquimaux d’Edmonton
Prédateurs de Nashville
Avalanche du Colorado
Panthères de la Floride
Sabres de Buffalo
Pingouins de Pittsburgh
Indiens de Cleveland
Braves d’Atlanta
Patriotes de la Nouvelle-Angleterre
Lions de Détroit
Les Orioles de Baltimore
Les Pirates de Pittsburgh
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  #104  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 8:44 PM
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If Leafs season ticket holders didn't have to purchase Raptors tickets...
I've never heard of this. Got a link?
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  #105  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 8:50 PM
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That's some cool stuff, Acajack. Thanks. Esquimaux is one of my all-time favourite words, incidentally.

Another sports-related thing in my head recently: if the Senate gets abolished, does Ottawa keep the team name? In 40 years, do we have to explain to a generation of children what it even means?
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  #106  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 8:53 PM
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Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
That's some cool stuff, Acajack. Thanks. Esquimaux is one of my all-time favourite words, incidentally.

Another sports-related thing in my head recently: if the Senate gets abolished, does Ottawa keep the team name? In 40 years, do we have to explain to a generation of children what it even means?
They'd already be confused as to why a team called the Senators has a logo of a Roman Centurion and a pregame ceremony featuring a Greek Spartan.
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  #107  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 9:08 PM
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Originally Posted by craneSpotter View Post

The Riders, one of the more 'successful' CFL teams, made a $1.1 million profit on revenues of $34.4 million for the 2012 season.

The Raptors on the other hand made a profit of $18.8 million on revenues of $121 million for their last season.
The Raptors' revenue per fan was only $13.

The Raptors had gate receipts of $31 M with 41 home games in a metro population of 6 M.

The Roughriders, by contrast, had gate receipts of $13.1 M with only 9 home games in a metro population of only 210,000.

Thus, the Roughriders generate twice as much in gate receipts per game than the Raptors ($1.5 M for the Roughrider vs. $756,000 for the Raptors).

Last edited by Prometheus; Nov 6, 2013 at 9:20 PM.
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  #108  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 9:11 PM
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The Roughriders, by contrast, had gate receipts of $13.1 M with only 9 home games in a metro population of 210,000.

Thus, the Roughriders generated twice as much in gate receipts per game than the Raptors ($1.5 M for the Roughrider vs. $756,000 for the Raptors).
Let's be honest here, those 9 home games are barely ever weekday games, and fewer home games mostly on weekends allows out-of-towners to make the trip to see the game.

Everyone knows the Riders' market is the entire province, and even neighbouring provinces. Very different situations.
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  #109  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 9:13 PM
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They don't need to stand on their own merits. They get "charity" from other MLSE properties and from the value the NBA has in the USA. There is also a bit of a shell game regarding NBA and MLB media deals for the Toronto teams. As the media outlets own the teams, they can pay whatever they feel they need to to make the team look profitable, regardless of whether they will make money on the contract or not.

And about being a sports powerhouse, isn't it the World Class American cities that Toronto wants to be in with? In which case it is failing..

Also, there is no reason to put quotes on pro when talking about the CFL.
1) I disagree that they don't need to stand on their own merits! Pro sports is purely a business - if they weren't standing they'd eventually be pushed aside Nobody is subsidizing them from what I can see. Yes they share in NBA league revenues - this is part of all pro sports - even the NHL & CFL i.e. In that case Toronto's CFL team would have 'charity' given to it by Saskatchewan TV viewers - who no doubt prop up the entire leagues TV ratings and hence contract value (as low as it is relatively speaking) - look at the viewer numbers posted of the top watched games! CFL doesn't look very successful outside of the Sask games Viewership #s on TSN or CBC mean squat. Its hard to get 'real' viewership numbers now - the proof is in the revenues.

Shell game? The fact that the money is there in the first place...Toronto is in with the 'world' class (whatever that means anyway) American cities - you don't have to hate. I think TSN is subsidizing the CFL, using cable subscriber package fee $$ - they can do whatever they want with their share of the money they get from the cable cos.

2) Toronto's pro sports team's value rankings by Forbes are pretty decent! They are probably even given a 'Canadian discount'

3) In my eyes the CFL ranks just below the NCAA. The financials show that and the millions of North American football fans agree - don't forget it is American football How did the CFL expansion to the states go? What are the valuations of the CFL teams by Forbes? Candy coat it all you want and have a CFL love-in here, but it is a rinky-dink league by any measure I mean look at the Regina stadium - the most successful team in the CFL - plays in a old outdated dump,,,even by NCAA standards (I was there last summer). The only hope of a new stadium is if the Saskatchewan government pays for it by funnelling taxpayer money from its crown corps!

Last edited by craneSpotter; Nov 6, 2013 at 9:31 PM.
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  #110  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 9:13 PM
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They'd already be confused as to why a team called the Senators has a logo of a Roman Centurion and a pregame ceremony featuring a Greek Spartan.
And why they play in an arena on a street called Palladium Drive that some junior marketing geek thought was a cool name for a Roman palace but that's actually chemical element number 46 or something...
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  #111  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 9:18 PM
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Originally Posted by craneSpotter View Post
1) I disagree that they don't need to stand on their own merits! Pro sports is purely a business - if they weren't standing they'd eventually be pushed aside Nobody is subsidizing them from what I can see (unlike Phoenix in the NHL). Yes they share in NBA league revenues - this is part of all pro sports - even the CFL i.e. In that case Toronto's CFL team would have 'charity' given to it by Saskatchewan TV viewers - who no doubt prop up the entire leagues Canadian TV ratings and hence contract value (as low as it is relatively speaking) - look at the viewer numbers posted of the top watched games! CFL doesn't look very successful outside of the Sask games Viewership #s on TSN or CBC mean squat. Its hard to get 'real' viewership numbers now - the proof is in the revenues.

Shell game? The fact that the money is there in the first place means something...

2) Toronto's pro sports team's value rankings by Forbes are pretty decent! They are probably even given a 'Canadian discount'

3) In my eyes the CFL ranks just below the NCAA. The financials show that and the millions of North American football fans agree - don't forget it is American football How did the CFL expansion to the states go? What are the valuations of the CFL teams by Forbes? Candy coat it all you want and have a CFL love-in here, but it is a rinky-dink league by any measure
Rinky dink by ANY measure? If the CFL is rinky dink then almost all of the world's pro sports leagues are rinky dink. There may not even be 10 on the entire planet that aren't.
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  #112  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 9:22 PM
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Originally Posted by craneSpotter View Post
1) I disagree that they don't need to stand on their own merits! Pro sports is purely a business - if they weren't standing they'd eventually be pushed aside Nobody is subsidizing them from what I can see (unlike Phoenix in the NHL). Yes they share in NBA league revenues - this is part of all pro sports - even the CFL i.e. In that case Toronto's CFL team would have 'charity' given to it by Saskatchewan TV viewers - who no doubt prop up the entire leagues Canadian TV ratings and hence contract value (as low as it is relatively speaking) - look at the viewer numbers posted of the top watched games! CFL doesn't look very successful outside of the Sask games Viewership #s on TSN or CBC mean squat. Its hard to get 'real' viewership numbers now - the proof is in the revenues.

Shell game? The fact that the money is there in the first place means something...

2) Toronto's pro sports team's value rankings by Forbes are pretty decent! They are probably even given a 'Canadian discount'

3) In my eyes the CFL ranks just below the NCAA. The financials show that and the millions of North American football fans agree - don't forget it is American football How did the CFL expansion to the states go? What are the valuations of the CFL teams by Forbes? Candy coat it all you want and have a CFL love-in here, but it is a rinky-dink league by any measure


USA - 400 million
Canada 35 million

NCAA - Football/Basketball are marketing monsters on par with NFL

Go ask Cam Wake (BC Lion now with the Dolphins) or Jerrel Freeman (Roughrider now with the Colts) and ask them if they think CFL players are less capable than Div 1 NCAA.
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  #113  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 9:24 PM
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Considering how many NCAA players are in the CFL I highly doubt it's below the developmental league they came from.

Unless you're talking about hype in which case yeah, the US and their 10x population is a hype machine (for certain sports).
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  #114  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 9:37 PM
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3) In my eyes the CFL ranks just below the NCAA. The financials show that and the millions of North American football fans agree - don't forget it is American football How did the CFL expansion to the states go? What are the valuations of the CFL teams by Forbes? Candy coat it all you want and have a CFL love-in here, but it is a rinky-dink league by any measure I mean look at the Regina stadium - the most successful team in the CFL - plays in a old outdated dump,,,by NCAA standards. The only hope of a new stadium is if the (broke) Saskatchewan government pays for it by funnelling money from its crown corps!

I say add two more teams - Saskatoon and Halifax. Then lets see how the league does...
Absolutely shocking level of ignorance displayed here. The CFL has one of the highest average attendances of any league in the world. Of course, the ignoramuses will say well they only play x number of games. So what? That is the business model and it works. There are so many differences in cultural, political, social, economic contexts between football in Canada and the US, it is impossible to compare. Football is obscenely overhyped in the US and I say that as someone who loves the game. It is completely out of touch with its real importance in society. That frankly is a sad comment on priorities in US society. Better to build a $1B football stadium than provide healthcare for the poor. That schtick does not sell here and nor it should.
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  #115  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 9:42 PM
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Considering how many NCAA players are in the CFL I highly doubt it's below the developmental league they came from.

Unless you're talking about hype in which case yeah, the US and their 10x population is a hype machine (for certain sports).
No kidding...how many NCAA players play even one game of professional football in any league in the world. And there are thousands playing every year. There are only about 2,000 players on active NFL/CFL rosters at any given time. But I do not think that was really the point. It is about the hype and how much the suckers are willing to shell out to be a part of something big.
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  #116  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 9:46 PM
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Regarding a culture change of a different sport, I'm really hoping this kid can bring Canadian basketball to a whole new level.

bleacherreport.com/articles/1833615-andrew-wiggins-admits-he-plans-on-entering-next-years-nba-draft

I can't even imagine what would happen if he ended up on the raptors. Although with the number of teams who have appeared to build a roster around tanking that's probably not likely. If Steve Nash was ten years younger Canada could truly be a contender on the world stage.
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  #117  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 9:49 PM
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Another point about franchise values...these values are basically the value of the cash flows that the "brand" can generate. There is very little if any value put on tangible value. If the brand deteriorates, the value goes down. That deterioration can come in many forms and if football continues on the path of reducing contact to limit the severity of injuries the game may soon have no appeal to growing numbers of fans. The brand will become worthless. Of course they will do anything and I mean anything to avoid this but if fans turn sour on it then they will be SOL.
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  #118  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 10:03 PM
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A poll in a weekly newspaper confirms what is basically a truism: Gatineau is part of the Ottawa Senators market but the Montreal Canadiens are still far more popular here, with 52% of fans for Montreal, and 30% for Ottawa.

The rest is split up between other clubs and people who don't follow hockey at all.

http://www.info07.com/Sports/Hockey/...des-Gatinois/1

I wonder if there is any other metro in North America where another team from outside the metro is so dominant in fan support in a fairly large geographic area of a particular team's market.
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  #119  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2013, 10:23 PM
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Everyone knows the Riders' market is the entire province, and even neighbouring provinces. Very different situations.
This is truly hilarious. The metro population of Toronto is six times the population of the entire province of Saskatchewan. And approximately 2.5 million Torontonians (i.e., 2 and 1/2 times the population of Saskatchewan) are a subway ride from the Air Canada Centre. Hell, the amount of people in walking distance from the ACC is probably greater than the entire population of Saskatchewan.

No matter how you slice it, the advantage is overwhelmingly in favour of the Raptors.

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Originally Posted by The_Architect View Post

Let's be honest here, those 9 home games are barely ever weekday games, and fewer home games mostly on weekends allows out-of-towners to make the trip to see the game.
Since the number of people who live within subway distance from the ACC is likely 2.5 times the population of the entire province of Saskatchewan, the distinction between weekday and weekend games becomes utterly irrelevant. That said, in 2012/2013, the Raptors played 23 weekend and Friday night home games. That's 14 more games than all of the Roughriders' home games that season.

Last edited by Prometheus; Nov 6, 2013 at 11:08 PM.
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  #120  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2013, 3:33 AM
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I don't know why people always bring up stadiums, TV production and all that stuff to prove that the CFL is worse than NCAA. First of all, CFL players are better than NCAA players, that's just an objective fact. If NCAA teams had better payers they wouldn't constantly be getting cut from CFL rosters.

And the more important point. Forget about the hype. Watch the game and make up your own opinion about whether you like it or not.
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