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  #21  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2007, 9:59 PM
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Originally Posted by djh View Post
Best line ever, preceded by the worst line ever. Don't bring her gender into it - if she was a man, nobody would make a comment like that.

But you're right in that she is annoying.
If she was a man there would be some other insult to throw his (her? ) way. So who cares.
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  #22  
Old Posted Nov 6, 2007, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Fairbanks View Post
As I recall the Canada Place including the Pan Pacific was constructed for approx. 440 milllion. That was1983-86.
You have to remember that Canada Place and the adjoining Pan Pacific Hotel already had their "foundation" in place, namely the piers and concrete overlay of the former "Pier B-C".

Considerable problems (and costs) were encountered during piling of the expansion project...just look above at the concrete "footprint" for the expansion project compared to the original Canada Place in the above photos.
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  #23  
Old Posted Nov 7, 2007, 12:00 AM
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Hi Stingray;

I agree with you. Thats the point I was trying to make..sort of...

It should be no surprise to anyone that the expansion is considerably more expensive than the Canada Place project. What surprises me is the original estimate of 495 million. I think that was a foolish number to begin with.
20 years later construction costs have risen dramatically. However the cost breakdown of the expansion project should still be public information.
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  #24  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2007, 2:06 AM
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I dont get why vancouver is going crazy over the increase in costs for the convention centre. Prices in Vancouver have been going up for years and years now so it should have been expected.

Besides, the governement will get half of it all back in the end from taxes that whatever company thats bulding the convention centre will obviously have to pay!!!
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  #25  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2007, 3:28 AM
deasine deasine is offline
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Originally Posted by nikw View Post
I dont get why vancouver is going crazy over the increase in costs for the convention centre. Prices in Vancouver have been going up for years and years now so it should have been expected.

Besides, the governement will get half of it all back in the end from taxes that whatever company thats bulding the convention centre will obviously have to pay!!!
it's not vancouver... but just the NDP.
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  #26  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2007, 3:46 AM
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Originally Posted by deasine View Post
it's not vancouver... but just the NDP.
well, the NDP is just looking for things to win over voters...so....
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  #27  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2007, 9:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadian Mind View Post
If she was a man there would be some other insult to throw his (her? ) way. So who cares.
Exactly, it actually was djh that made it a gender issue. I say equal opportunity...
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  #28  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2007, 11:45 AM
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The whole "controversy" is trumped up. I have yet to meet a single person who has voluntarily brought up the convention centre while listing their gripes. The homeless problem, the utter lack of affordable housing, gang violence, the Olympics (in general), and a general feeling that Vancouver is full of itself to an unhealthy degree are all common themes that I come across.

If the NDP is seriously trying to get behind it as a wedge issue I wish them luck but it won't win them elections. In fact it could have some serious backlash if a review of the project leads to the Province swearing off directly managing any construction projects ever again. The Convention Centre is the biggest urban public works project the Province is undertaking. It is coming in at approximately twice the Province's contribution to the Canada Line and I don't think Victoria has any involvement with the Seymour Capilano Water Filtration project (totally off of everybody's radar despite its billion-plus price tag, and promises to virtually eliminate chlorine in our water, and give us arguably the cleanest drinking water in North America and at the very front of the pack for the entire planet).

The convention centre is not another fast ferries project. It isn't meant to foster an entirely new industry, as the Fast Ferries sought to do with aluminum shipbuilding. The convention centre (VCCEP for short from now on) is meant to be a money spinner and if it fails to do that, then it will be a boondoggle. Right now it is just over budget. The Fast Ferries fiasco wasn't initially about them going over budget. If I remember correctly the media was pretty forgiving about the delays for some time, after all, these were state of the art vessels and our people were learning how to build them as they went. It was when they started being sea tested that the controversy really started. They couldn't run as fast as planned because of their wakes and their inability to steer around logs at speed. The fear was that their more fragile aluminum hulls wouldn't be able to stand up to smacking a deadhead log at thirty knots without reenacting the Titanic (or the Queen of the North). Also, the engines were touchy and I seem to remember a Fast Cat being towed once or twice.

The nail in the coffin for the program was when the ships became (1) grossly over budget and behind schedule, (2) unable to perform to their design specs (which was the whole point!) and, (3) there would be no appreciable time savings on the route because they needed to fit into a crossing schedule that also featured conventional models because of the lower vehicle capacities of the Fast Cats (intended to be off-set by their speed). The post script included (4) was a complete lack of orders for the Fast Cat design from other companies and ferry operators, and (5) there were no buyers for the Fast Cats and they were eventually sold to Washington Marine Group for LESS than they were worth as scrap metal.

Put it all together and Fast Ferries were to the NDP government what a sneeze would be as one takes a piece from the bottom in a game of Jenga.

In time we will know if the VCCEP is worth the price we've paid for it. I think it will be worth it. We're getting an impressive multi-use structure in a central location with a whole whack of adjacent amenities and infrastructure, we're getting a functional addition to the existing VCC, and we're investing our own money locally, which is never bad for the economy. That investment just spins and spins and, as has been mentioned before, a good chunk of it will come back to the Province. Think of the opportunity cost of what the 0.9 billion could have bought. A debt pay down would be my best guess. Possibly some tax credits and a few new bridges and roads throughout the province. Some more money to health care and education. All worthy causes but usually sunk costs.

The VCCEP, touch wood, will make money that the public can then invest in all those other things. And honestly, if the convention market sours, which is very likely at some point between now and when the building rusts itself to the point of collapse over the next century or so, we can always shutter the old VCC until the market improves or another use comes along. A giant grow-op maybe?
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  #29  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2007, 4:44 PM
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Yeah at least when the Libs go overbudget the things they make will probably still be functional... although we shall have to wait and see.
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  #30  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2007, 5:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delirium View Post
here's another good angle -


from www.flickr.com
Amazing photo!
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  #31  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2007, 9:34 PM
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Well put, SFU.
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  #32  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2007, 9:38 PM
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boxy.
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  #33  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2007, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by vitc View Post
Exactly, it actually was djh that made it a gender issue. I say equal opportunity...
Er, actually, what I said was *not* to make it a gender issue:

"Don't bring her gender into it - if she was a man, nobody would make a comment like that."
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  #34  
Old Posted Nov 8, 2007, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by MolsonExport View Post
Amazing photo!
Even more amazing with a waterfront stadium in the foreground.
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  #35  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tintinium View Post
Even more amazing with a waterfront stadium in the foreground.
I agree! That area looks way too empty... perfect for the stadium to be situated.
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  #36  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 6:15 AM
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
Yeah at least when the Libs go overbudget the things they make will probably still be functional... although we shall have to wait and see.
And the Fast Ferries are not? The only thing keeping them at dock is the current government. The buyers of the ferries wanted to put them into service from Downtown Vancouver to Downtown Victoria, but they couldn't overcome the bureaucratic hurdles to do so. I don't see the Fast Ferries as a failure at all, rather they were put aside due to pure politics. I wouldn't be surprised in I saw them in service in a couple of year, as they are quite capable of running normally...
If the NDP came to power, they would probably close down the Convention Centre and do the same thing the Liberals did with the ferries...
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  #37  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 6:16 AM
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^ how long can those ferries possibly last around for? 10 years of their lives have already passed by and they're starting to rust.
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  #38  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 6:21 AM
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They're aluminum hulls.
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  #39  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 7:44 AM
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Considering how long ships last, at least 20 years.
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  #40  
Old Posted Nov 9, 2007, 7:53 AM
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....10 years of 20 years, gone.
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