Mayor Moonbeam Goes to Copenhagen

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by furbe

Poster "Whatnext" actually mentioned that he expects our Prime Minister and Premier to represent us. That's the funniest joke I've heard all year. At this moment, our federal government is over there fighting tooth and nail against the environmental movement

Sorry, but I've just gotta interject with a further little bit of humour here based upon your statement.

The feds have recruited reality TV guy Mike Holmes "on Homes" as a climate advisor at the international climacy negotiations in Copenhagen. Somehow that comes across as a bit of a [mis]fit for the occasion.



Source: www.scrapbookgraphics.com

http://www.canada.com/technology/pro...670/story.html

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Delirium

he's going to Copenhagen for a mayors conference on climate change along with 55 other mayors from all over the world.

it would be stupid for him (and the city) NOT to go and be part of those talks.
Calgary, Toronto, LA, Sydney, Tokyo, Paris, London, etc mayors are all there.

but wait. our mayor shouldn't go because of the airline and hotel tab?
give me a f**kn break.

climate summit for mayors website: http://www.climatesummitformayors.dk/

As a taxpaying house-owner in the City of Vancouver, I'd like Mayor Moonbeam to give me a "f**kn break" as you call it. At a time when my taxes are going up and services being cut, I'd like a "f**kn break" from politicians going on useless junkets.

Gregor the Green going to lure business? BS. From your weblink:

The Copenhagen Climate Summit for Mayors will put cities on top of the global climate agenda and send the message to the heads of state, the media and citizens that

Cities act - we must, we can and we will...

In other words, another useless airy-fairy bun toss, where a bunch of talking heads get together to chew the fat. Gregor can do more research at home on his laptop. It blows me away that anyone supports this waster of money, but then perhaps its not your tax dollars going down the drain.

[s211]

Originally Posted by whatnext

As a taxpaying house-owner in the City of Vancouver, I'd like Mayor Moonbeam to give me a "f**kn break" as you call it. At a time when my taxes are going up and services being cut, I'd like a "f**kn break" from politicians going on useless junkets.

Gregor the Green going to lure business? BS. From your weblink:

The Copenhagen Climate Summit for Mayors will put cities on top of the global climate agenda and send the message to the heads of state, the media and citizens that

Cities act - we must, we can and we will...

In other words, another useless airy-fairy bun toss, where a bunch of talking heads get together to chew the fat. Gregor can do more research at home on his laptop. It blows me away that anyone supports this waster of money, but then perhaps its not your tax dollars going down the drain.

It SHOULD blow you away that anyone supports this boondoggle, but then there were plenty enough to vote him in, and THAT should blow you away even more.

[furbe]

Originally Posted by whatnext

As a taxpaying house-owner in the City of Vancouver, I'd like Mayor Moonbeam to give me a "f**kn break" as you call it. At a time when my taxes are going up and services being cut, I'd like a "f**kn break" from politicians going on useless junkets.

Gregor the Green going to lure business? BS. From your weblink:

The Copenhagen Climate Summit for Mayors will put cities on top of the global climate agenda and send the message to the heads of state, the media and citizens that

Cities act - we must, we can and we will...

In other words, another useless airy-fairy bun toss, where a bunch of talking heads get together to chew the fat. Gregor can do more research at home on his laptop. It blows me away that anyone supports this waster of money, but then perhaps its not your tax dollars going down the drain.

Why do right wing neo-conservatives sound like grumpy old men?

"Bloody mayor, travelling the world, having all the damn fun on my bloody expense."

I suppose your ideal politician would just work out of his home, spend no money, never undertake any investment, limit all risk, and just cut taxes.

Low taxes - the neo-conservative answer to all problems. Low taxes are good. High taxes are bad. Cities with lower taxes always overcome cities with higher taxes.

All based on a falsehood. An oversimplified argument that assumes all businesses are the same and will go to the cities with the most favorable tax rates.

Richard Florida provided ample evidence that this is simply not the case. Businesses go to where the people are. They go to where the people want to be. They go to the cities that are the most tolerant. That's right - the "airy-fairy" cities with big gay populations like San Francisco, that are the constant butt end of jokes by right wingers like yourself. The kinds of places where people actually believe in the realities of climate change and want to see the issue addressed.

If you truly believe the Copenhagen Climate Summit is an "airy-fairy bun toss", then it's obvious what your politics are and your views on climate change. You surely can't identify the opportunities progressive countries like Germany have, in creating green economies to supply the technology and products that will lessen our dependence on fossil fuels.

But don't bother contemplating such big issues. Go back to complaining about your taxes. About a flight and a hotel. About how you could have saved a dime had our mayor not gone to network, market our city, and discuss solutions to this global problem.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by furbe

Why do right wing neo-conservatives sound like grumpy old men?

"Bloody mayor, travelling the world, having all the damn fun on my bloody expense."

I suppose your ideal politician would just work out of his home, spend no money, never undertake any investment, limit all risk, and just cut taxes.

Low taxes - the neo-conservative answer to all problems. Low taxes are good. High taxes are bad. Cities with lower taxes always overcome cities with higher taxes.

Perhaps I sound a like a grumpy old man because some people come across a perpetual starry-eyed grad students. LOL, yes high taxes are great. I'm sure you can volunteer to pay more than what you're assessed (if you indeed are).

Originally Posted by furbe

All based on a falsehood. An oversimplified argument that assumes all businesses are the same and will go to the cities with the most favorable tax rates.

Richard Florida provided ample evidence that this is simply not the case. Businesses go to where the people are. They go to where the people want to be. They go to the cities that are the most tolerant. That's right - the "airy-fairy" cities with big gay populations like San Francisco, that are the constant butt end of jokes by right wingers like yourself. The kinds of places where people actually believe in the realities of climate change and want to see the issue addressed.

According to statistics more Americans flocked to Dallas-Fort Worth than any other American city recently, which hardly fits your or Florida's thesis.

Originally Posted by furbe

If you truly believe the Copenhagen Climate Summit is an "airy-fairy bun toss", then it's obvious what your politics are and your views on climate change. You surely can't identify the opportunities progressive countries like Germany have, in creating green economies to supply the technology and products that will lessen our dependence on fossil fuels.

But don't bother contemplating such big issues. Go back to complaining about your taxes. About a flight and a hotel. About how you could have saved a dime had our mayor not gone to network, market our city, and discuss solutions to this global problem.

A federal and provincial presence at these conferences are enough. At the civic level these junkets are a waste of time. Seminars and speeches with other mayors are not going to bring any businesses to Vancouver.

It may have escaped you, but unlike Germany, Canada is in the business of extracting primary resources.

[jlousa]

I disagree with this trip, as it will accomplish very little, but the biggest issue I have is the timing of it, the mayor left during public meetings regarding the budget, the other meeting missed was a big deal too but not as big as missing the budget public hearing. If the budget crisis is as big as the mayor is making it out to be then he should have stayed, both to save a few bucks but mostly to listen to the public. It is somewhat ironic that in todays day and age an environmental conference couldn't be held electronically,

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I disagree with this trip, as it will accomplish very little, but the biggest issue I have is the timing of it, the mayor left during public meetings regarding the budget, the other meeting missed was a big deal too but not as big as missing the budget public hearing. If the budget crisis is as big as the mayor is making it out to be then he should have stayed, both to save a few bucks but mostly to listen to the public. It is somewhat ironic that in todays day and age an environmental conference couldn't be held electronically,

I had missed that bit about him leaving during budget meetings. Talk about irony

Civic politics is about local nuts and bolts, keeping the roads (and bike routes ) paved etc. If Gregor wants to play at a higher level he should go back into provincial politics, or enter the federal game.

[furbe]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Perhaps I sound a like a grumpy old man because some people come across a perpetual starry-eyed grad students. LOL, yes high taxes are great. I'm sure you can volunteer to pay more than what you're assessed (if you indeed are).

I live in downtown Vancouver, and own a condo at the Mondrian on Richards and Nelson.

I'll tell you what. I'll pay your share of Gregor Robertson's travel expenditures to a major conference, and you can pay my share of the 3.5 billion dollar bridge to Surrey that I'll never use.

Originally Posted by whatnext

According to statistics more Americans flocked to Dallas-Fort Worth than any other American city recently, which hardly fits your or Florida's thesis.

Take a look at an electoral map of the most liberal states and cities in America, and I'll tell you where the majority of high tech industries have chosen to locate.

And isn't it interesting that high tech companies such as Google and Apple have come out in favor of issues such as gay marriage and climate change? They care about such issues because so too do their staff, and it affects their ability to attract and retain the best people.

Originally Posted by whatnext

A federal and provincial presence at these conferences are enough. At the civic level these junkets are a waste of time. Seminars and speeches with other mayors are not going to bring any businesses to Vancouver.

It may have escaped you, but unlike Germany, Canada is in the business of extracting primary resources.

The business of extracting primary resources is one that will continue to decline. In case it escaped you, that's what this conference is all about.

Any smart entrepreneur is adept at looking ahead, identifying future trends and capitalizing on them. It's too bad we're neither smart nor entrepreneurial, at least not at the federal level.

I look forward to using all that German made technology and equipment we will one day import.

Originally Posted by jlousa

I disagree with this trip, as it will accomplish very little, but the biggest issue I have is the timing of it, the mayor left during public meetings regarding the budget, the other meeting missed was a big deal too but not as big as missing the budget public hearing. If the budget crisis is as big as the mayor is making it out to be then he should have stayed, both to save a few bucks but mostly to listen to the public. It is somewhat ironic that in todays day and age an environmental conference couldn't be held electronically,

I respect your opinion. But I also think you're underestimating the importance of this conference. It's not just another environmental conference, it will have profound effects on all of us and it's important enough that all world leaders should attend, including the representatives of all major cities. It's not the kind of conference left to Skype.

Sitting in council and listening to the public, both the reasonable citizens and the nut jobs, will accomplish next to nothing. Neither is it terribly important to be perfectly honest.

Every government, either federal, provincial or municipal has had a budget crisis this year. We just endured the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Yet, 100 other cities have managed to dig deep into their pockets and attend this conference.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by furbe

I live in downtown Vancouver, and own a condo at the Mondrian on Richards and Nelson.

I'll tell you what. I'll pay your share of Gregor Robertson's travel expenditures to a major conference, and you can pay my share of the 3.5 billion dollar bridge to Surrey that I'll never use.

Like you I will never use that bridge. But I will enjoy the fruits of the increased trade and mobility it brings to Metro. Mayor Moonbeam's junket will bring no such benefits.

Originally Posted by furbe

...The business of extracting primary resources is one that will continue to decline....

For all Canadians sake, we should hope not. And is it in decline, in terms of dollar value?

Originally Posted by furbe

...I look forward to using all that German made technology and equipment we will one day import.

I look forward to continuing to enjoy Germany's largest export: automobiles.

Originally Posted by furbe

...I respect your opinion. But I also think you're underestimating the importance of this conference. It's not just another environmental conference, it will have profound effects on all of us and it's important enough that all world leaders should attend, including the representatives of all major cities. It's not the kind of conference left to Skype.

Just like Kyoto, huh ?

Originally Posted by furbe

Sitting in council and listening to the public, both the reasonable citizens and the nut jobs, will accomplish next to nothing. Neither is it terribly important to be perfectly honest.

God forbid the mayor should deign to do what he was elected to.

Originally Posted by furbe

.Every government, either federal, provincial or municipal has had a budget crisis this year. We just endured the worst financial crisis since the great depression. Yet, 100 other cities have managed to dig deep into their pockets and attend this conference.

What a surprise, there's 100 other mayors with an inflated sense of self-importance.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by furbe

The business of extracting primary resources is one that will continue to decline. In case it escaped you, that's what this conference is all about.

Any smart entrepreneur is adept at looking ahead, identifying future trends and capitalizing on them. It's too bad we're neither smart nor entrepreneurial, at least not at the federal level.

Sure, you keep telling yourself that. Even if we see a drop in massive CO2 emissions and fossil fuel usage in the next century I'd bet a fortune that we won't see the primary resource extraction industry decline unless we blow ourselves to kingdom come. I should know, I'm about to graduate in to mining and mineral process engineering.

Theres a lot more to the industry than just gas, oil and forestry. The fact is, theres more people on this planet using more metals and minerals than ever, and it's not like you can recycle your way to having more metal in use or just go cold turkey and attempt to use alternative materials. The only way we're going to go green energy wise is if we starting building huge amounts of infrastructure which doesn't depend on fossil fuels.

You see, we've grabbed all the low lying fruit when it comes to energy, all of the alternatives are going to use a lot more concrete, steel, copper, iron and industrial minerals than if we just kept on using good ol' dino juice. The bulk of the expense with these projects isn't coming from operating costs, it's with initial capital and startup costs, and for an alternative energy project to just break even in comparison to something like a coal plant over it's lifetime means there is a freaking huge difference. How many times more steel do you think is used to make a GW of wind power compared to a GW of coal power?

You want entrepreneurial attitude, get a jump on the hot commodities of the next century. It's going to be a lot of building supplies and rare earth metals unless battery tech changes. It's a good thing Vancouver is already home to one of the largest hubs of the mineral resource industry.

[furbe]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Sure, you keep telling yourself that. Even if we see a drop in massive CO2 emissions and fossil fuel usage in the next century I'd bet a fortune that we won't see the primary resource extraction industry decline unless we blow ourselves to kingdom come. I should know, I'm about to graduate in to mining and mineral process engineering.

Theres a lot more to the industry than just gas, oil and forestry. The fact is, theres more people on this planet using more metals and minerals than ever, and it's not like you can recycle your way to having more metal in use or just go cold turkey and attempt to use alternative materials. The only way we're going to go green energy wise is if we starting building huge amounts of infrastructure which doesn't depend on fossil fuels.

You see, we've grabbed all the low lying fruit when it comes to energy, all of the alternatives are going to use a lot more concrete, steel, copper, iron and industrial minerals than if we just kept on using good ol' dino juice. The bulk of the expense with these projects isn't coming from operating costs, it's with initial capital and startup costs, and for an alternative energy project to just break even in comparison to something like a coal plant over it's lifetime means there is a freaking huge difference. How many times more steel do you think is used to make a GW of wind power compared to a GW of coal power?

You want entrepreneurial attitude, get a jump on the hot commodities of the next century. It's going to be a lot of building supplies and rare earth metals unless battery tech changes. It's a good thing Vancouver is already home to one of the largest hubs of the mineral resource industry.

I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not suggesting that there isn't going to be huge money to be made in oil and gas in the short term. In fact, I believe the opposite to be true.

What I am suggesting however is that the issues of climate change are not going away, and in the long term there is a race to find alternatives. In that race to find alternatives, there is also a race to come up with alternatives.

I suggest watching this video:

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2008-2009/th...een/video.html

You may be correct in your assessment in regards to the demand for commodities. I can't say either way. But the simple fact remains that the resource based industry in British Columbia has been in steady decline over the last 20 years. It now only accounts for 9% of the workforce, down from 13% in 1990.

Vancouver cannot pin it's economic future on these volatile industries. It needs to become a city that is home to the designers, engineers, entrepreneurs, that solve the problems we face tomorrow.

That's never going to happen if you don't have the courage to come out and make bold decision like becoming the greenest city; or marketing ourselves as progressive and supportive.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by furbe

Vancouver cannot pin it's economic future on these volatile industries. It needs to become a city that is home to the designers, engineers, entrepreneurs, that solve the problems we face tomorrow.

That is largely what is happening.

You don't really see that many companies basing supporting their projects off of Vancouver's industrial base, but there's a whole lot of engineering and consulting companies running everything from a far. At last count there's over 600 mining related companies based in Vancouver, the bulk of which don't have operations in BC.

[furbe]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

That is largely what is happening.

You don't really see that many companies basing supporting their projects off of Vancouver's industrial base, but there's a whole lot of engineering and consulting companies running everything from a far. At last count there's over 600 mining related companies based in Vancouver, the bulk of which don't have operations in BC.

In Germany, jobs in alternative energy will soon be the single largest employer, exceeding even those in the auto industry. Think about that for a second.

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by furbe

Vancouver cannot pin it's economic future on these volatile industries. It needs to become a city that is home to the designers, engineers, entrepreneurs, that solve the problems we face tomorrow.

That's never going to happen if you don't have the courage to come out and make bold decision like becoming the greenest city; or marketing ourselves as progressive and supportive.

Indeed, it's important to keep in mind just how economically-minded the current mayor is when it comes to marketing this city abroad as "green." This issue came up in the viaducts thread as well. The decision to go to Copenhagen (very small potatoes expense-wise) should be seen in the same light as the mayor's decision to study the possibility of viaduct removal (also relatively small potatoes, in that there's no actual monetary commitment to tearing them down). I would bet anyone that Robertson is acting in large part for both scenarios on the assumption that these little things, combined with the city's existing reputation, could very well reap economic benefits well in excess of their fairly minimal cost - in the form of an unambiguous message to prospective investors as to where to spend their "green" dollars.

In other words, these are smart expenditures, in my opinion. More frugal but less sure-fire, I suppose, would be for Robertson to simply forgo the suit for a T-shirt that says "world's greenest city."

As to electronic conferencing, while I'm generally in favor, it presents obvious limitations for building and cementing potential economic relationships. The perennial handshake alone would be an insurmountable challenge.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by furbe

In Germany, jobs in alternative energy will soon be the single largest employer, exceeding even those in the auto industry. Think about that for a second.

Yeah, solar voltaic panels/solar electric modules are a burgeoning industry in Germany particularly in the former eastern German state of Saxony and around baroque Dresden.

Nevertheless, we also have our own growing industry in that regard and one comes to mind - Day4 Energy, which was founded by Dr. John MacDonald (co-founder of MacDonald Dettwiler).

Day4 Energy has seen phenomenal growth (2nd fastest growing BC company in 2008) albeit it is still considered to be a start-up company and has yet to be profitable.

Paradoxically speaking of Germany, ~6 weeks ago Day4 Energy:

...executed an agreement to deliver a turnkey 2.4 megawatt (MW) roof-mounted turnkey photovoltaic power plant for Günther Heiss Solar Gmbh & Co. KG in Germany. Day4 Energy will design, engineer and construct the PV power plant

http://www.day4energy.com/EN/company.htm

I also look forward to expanding this type of industrial base among everything else.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by furbe

In Germany, jobs in alternative energy will soon be the single largest employer, exceeding even those in the auto industry. Think about that for a second.

That really doesn't surprise me. The auto industry workforce isn't exactly growing over there, due to industrial automation it's probably shrinking and probably has been for a while. Also my last point was me saying that the components required to mass fabricate alternative energy supplies was going to go nuts shortly.

I'm not a big right wing anti-eco-agenda evilness if thats what you may think I come off as. I'm pretty centrist. My gripe is unrealistic expectations for a lot of things that largely seem to come off as green washing, rather than real advance. That and I'm a bit of a jerk in real life too

Food for thought. If it is just another construction boom and we somehow manage to cover our asses for energy consumption, there's going to be a big alternative energy bust. You really don't want our eggs all in one basket now do you? Even alternative energy will have its own boom and bust cycles.

[twoNeurons]

Made in Germany.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

Indeed, it's important to keep in mind just how economically-minded the current mayor is when it comes to marketing this city abroad as "green." This issue came up in the viaducts thread as well. The decision to go to Copenhagen (very small potatoes expense-wise) should be seen in the same light as the mayor's decision to study the possibility of viaduct removal (also relatively small potatoes, in that there's no actual monetary commitment to tearing them down). ...

The problem is that the small potatoes come together very quickly to become one very large potato.

The suggestion that was made up thread, that Mayor Moonbeam's time is better spent jetting around the world rather than on such mundane issues as budget hearings is ridiculous.

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by whatnext

The problem is that the small potatoes come together very quickly to become one very large potato.

The suggestion that was made up thread, that Mayor Moonbeam's time is better spent jetting around the world rather than on such mundane issues as budget hearings is ridiculous.

The mayor isn't exactly "jetting around the world," and I never said a budget hearing was "mundane." He's in Copenhagen for what may be a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity for the city to play its "green" card on such a prominent world stage, after which he'll be back and doing everything a mayor is supposed to do.

My point is that the rationale for the trip is obvious. For a city with an increasingly global profile - one, moreover, of only a select group of large cities worldwide that can lay claim to a "green" or "sustainable" reputation (easily the most prominent "green"-wise in North America) - one would expect a Vancouver presence at this conference. It's an opportunity to show off at minimal taxpayer expense - minimal compared to, say, the Olympics.

That said, I'm sure he's in touch with what's going on back home, perhaps via electronic conferencing, to adapt jlousa's suggestion. I don't think his physical presence is as important for a Vancouver budget hearing as it would be, say, in Copenhagen. The world is not watching Vancouver's budget meeting; everyone, however, is watching what's what and who's who in Copenhagen.

[jlousa]

Everyone is watching the mayors conference in copenhagen? I can only assume that the mayor of Copenhagen is there I wouldn't be able to tell you any other mayor that's there, I'm sure most people would be in the same boat, so let's not say everyone is watching. Any businesses that are there are there to shop their products, and/or looking at business subsidies from regions in order to locate there. I'm fairly confident that no company is there looking for the greenest city to move to unless by greenest you mean for their bottom line.
I'm completely in favor of being greener, I just hate watching us chasing tails. I just can't help but feeling deja vu this is like the tech boom of only a few years ago with Vancouver chasing the dot.com industry offering tax incentives as we would be the tech capital of Canada etc etc.