Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[SteelTown]

Needs to be 20 acres with a stadium and a warm up track.

[markbarbera]

Kay Drage is over 50 acres in size

[highwater]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

Not suggesting Hamilton would pay for an Aldershot build, just that it might be a favourable site for a number of reasons. Might.

If you think a few whining north end nimby's are bad, imagine the screaming from Aldershot residents if they thought their idyll was going to be invaded by a bunch of dirty Ticat fans from Hamilton.

[Jon Dalton]

I thought the Kay Drage location would be perfect from every angle except adjacent development. Imagine that as a 'gateway' feature from both the train and the 403? I ride past it every day and can't help but think it's a waste of space.

[drpgq]

I wonder which Ticat partners are actually complaining or if the Cats are just saying that rather than come out and say it themselves. Potentially whoever they have lined up for the naming rights might care, but I'm not sure whether the interior advertisers are really going to object to the West Harbour location.

[SteelTown]

I would support the Kay Drage site as well but I think it's too narrow perhaps?

[geoff's two cents]

I like the Kay Drage site's position along the GO track, and even its proximity to the freeway (much as I hate to admit this), but there's zero spin-off effects here for the downtown, where I'd personally like to see the city invest the bulk of its entertainment and cultural attraction investment dollars.

Furthermore, it's also too far from any of the expected Hamilton-based LRT lines, thus further isolating it from the downtown as a "macro destination," to adopt Ryan's turn of phrase.

Lastly, the West Harbour stadium proposal is located near 1) the north of downtown; 2) the upcoming James N GO station; and 3) two major N-S and E-W arteries (Bay and Barton). It's accessible as both a "macro" and "micro" destination. Though, in an ideal world, I'd prefer to have the stadium smack downtown, the West Harbour is the best proposal I've seen thus far.

I'd be interested to know how James N. businesses feel about this proposed location.

[markbarbera]

Geoff, just a couple of observations on your post. First off, with the B-Line LRT currently planned to run along King, Kay Drage is actually in closer proximity to the B;Line than the West harbour site is. With reference to access to major arteries, Kay Drage is easily accessible from Dundurn and King Streets, (as well as York Blvd via Dundurn), and is right next to highway 403. Besides the B-Line, HSR Routes 1, 5, 51, 6, and 8 all get you right to are in close proximity to Kay Drage.

I'd also have to question how much spin off to the downtown this stadium will have, be it at West Harbour or anywhere else for that matter. It cannot serve as a destination for downtown unless it is right downtown. Anywhere else and people will only be travelling through downtown to the stadium.

Most importantly is the cost. We can't take on a 'spare no expense' attitude for this stadium. With no remediation or acquisition costs, we can do a stadium up right at Kay Drage far less expensively than at the West Harbour.

[realcity]

I like Kay Drage and Confed Park... those would've been my shortlist

[geoff's two cents]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Geoff, just a couple of observations on your post. First off, with the B-Line LRT currently planned to run along King, Kay Drage is actually in closer proximity to the B;Line than the West harbour site is. With reference to access to major arteries, Kay Drage is easily accessible from Dundurn and King Streets, (as well as York Blvd via Dundurn), and is right next to highway 403. Besides the B-Line, HSR Routes 1, 5, 51, 6, and 8 all get you right to are in close proximity to Kay Drage.

I'd also have to question how much spin off to the downtown this stadium will have, be it at West Harbour or anywhere else for that matter. It cannot serve as a destination for downtown unless it is right downtown. Anywhere else and people will only be travelling through downtown to the stadium.

Most importantly is the cost. We can't take on a 'spare no expense' attitude for this stadium. With no remediation or acquisition costs, we can do a stadium up right at Kay Drage far less expensively than at the West Harbour.

Thanks for the comments, Mark. Let's not forget, however, about the A-Line (whether LRT or not) and the rather-more-set-in-stone James N. GO station (I could be wrong, but I highly doubt GO would consider another train station in such close proximity to James N. and, moreover, with only a seasonal destination). Also, for a city with such a beautiful waterfront, and that sprawls so extensively to the east and west, I think a waterfront stadium directly north of downtown could help provide a crucial north-end destination to help solidify the connection to the north.

As for spin-offs, they're obviously impossible to calculate in advance. A soccer team (all talk at this point, I realize), mind you, would attract additional pedestrian traffic to the area, making other eating, drinking and entertainment establishments a more viable investment.

I'd also be interested in knowing, however, if the city would be able or interested in selling off some remediated land surrounding the stadium to developers. (Again, it has to be cleaned up at some point, and at taxpayer expense). This would help bankroll the city's contribution to building the facility in the first place, as well as give the area a residential anchor. I imagine there would be more of a market for (and thus greater developer interest in) those types of waterfront views, as opposed to, say, the sightlines facing the 403.

In general, I also think a stadium positioned between the waterfront and downtown (and the television coverage that would entail) would do a lot more for the city's image than one located outside the sightlines of either.

In addition, I'll admit I have an unquantifiable and irrational preference for urban as opposed to suburban stadiums. As an outsider, however, I don't think I'm the only one that feels this way, and such an investment may just provide a welcome shot in the arm for reviving the north end of the city and its waterfront. When this much money is at stake, I think Hamiltonians should step outside the "what will make the grade for Hamilton as we know it?" bubble (a.k.a. "survivorship bias" - http://raisethehammer.org/article/10...ition_to_lrt_), and start thinking of how tourists, television viewers, and professionals thinking of relocating from Toronto would view their city.

If any of the above matters (and as an outsider, it matters to me), having the steel mills between the stadium and downtown (Confed. Park), putting it out of sight of downtown next to the 403 (Kay Drage), or putting it out by the airport would be an enormous loss of opportunity, and ultimately money less well spent.

[SteelTown]

Looks like expropriation for the West Harbour stadium will begin really quickly now that Gowlings has been hired.

[waughste3]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

It's going to look good with a new stadium in that location. Lets hope they add the upper deck to the other side with the initial construction and not wait to add it later.

It's amazing what a little Paint and Corel PaintShop Pro Photo X2 can do.

[bigguy1231]

That would be great if it ends up looking like that. But I am afraid that with the morons we have on city council, it may look more like a track with bleachers lining the sidelines.

Lets hope, they build it right and we get something closely resembling the rendering.

[realcity]

it won't at all look like that. where are the rail yards?

[realcity]

besides it wont be built here

[markbarbera]

just a coupe of comments on Geoff's posting

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

Let's not forget, however, about the A-Line (whether LRT or not) and the rather-more-set-in-stone James N. GO station (I could be wrong, but I highly doubt GO would consider another train station in such close proximity to James N. and, moreover, with only a seasonal destination).

A couple points here. First off, I won't be popular for pointing this out but, nomatter what format the A-Line rapid transit line ends up taking, it isn't planned to be built until 2028 at the earliest (A-line is part of the third and final phase of a 30-year plan), so it's not going to be in position to be an immediate or even short-term traffic feeder for the west harbour location. In contrast, Kay Drage is in close proximity to the B-Line rapid transit route, which is part of the second phase of the 30-year plan and is planned to be built for 2018.

As far as a GO station in the proximity of Kay Drage, this would be a viable station for GO regardless of its commitment to James North. A station here would serve the Innovation Park as well as the western portion of the city. It could also have a direct transfer connection to the B-Line rapid transit line here. This would definitely be used by the Hamilton GO Train service already running along the CP lines year-round, and certainly wouldn't be seasonal in nature.

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

As for spin-offs, they're obviously impossible to calculate in advance. A soccer team (all talk at this point, I realize), mind you, would attract additional pedestrian traffic to the area, making other eating, drinking and entertainment establishments a more viable investment.

Ivor Wynne certainly hasn't had an lasting effect on eating, drinking and entertainment establishments in its immediate vicinity. Neither has Copps Colliseum for that matter. I am still very skeptical on how different the impact on a west harbour site 1.5 km from downtown would be from a stadium at Kay Drage, itself just under 2 km from downtown.

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

I'd also be interested in knowing, however, if the city would be able or interested in selling off some remediated land surrounding the stadium to developers. (Again, it has to be cleaned up at some point, and at taxpayer expense). This would help bankroll the city's contribution to building the facility in the first place, as well as give the area a residential anchor. I imagine there would be more of a market for (and thus greater developer interest in) those types of waterfront views, as opposed to, say, the sightlines facing the 403.

This is kind of academic since all available industrial land at the West Harbour will be required for the stadium site (along with some residential properties). Regadless, I think you'll find open-air football stadiums actually have a negative impact on the market value of surrounding residential developments. Even harder to sell when in such close proximity to the CN freight yards. Besides that, the City of Toronto greatly regrets its decision to allow a wall of condos to be built, which has become a physical division between their downtown and waterfront. I really don't think we should be recreating that urban error.

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

In general, I also think a stadium positioned between the waterfront and downtown (and the television coverage that would entail) would do a lot more for the city's image than one located outside the sightlines of either.

Kay Drage is well within the sightlines of downtown, if you are referring to the aerial shots during the broadcast of games. And as far as image goes, the sightlines of Cootes Paradise, the high-level bridge and Cathedral Christ the King are far superior to sightlines surrounding the Tiffany location.

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

In addition, I'll admit I have an unquantifiable and irrational preference for urban as opposed to suburban stadiums.

Kay Drage is an urban location, not suburban.

Originally Posted by geoff's two cents

If any of the above matters (and as an outsider, it matters to me), having the steel mills between the stadium and downtown (Confed. Park), putting it out of sight of downtown next to the 403 (Kay Drage), or putting it out by the airport would be an enormous loss of opportunity, and ultimately money less well spent.

I agree that the airport site would be a lost opportunity. I also am not a huge fan of a Confed Park location. However, Kay Drage certainly cannot be categorized in the way you have here. Kay Drage is not very much further from downtown as the Tiffany location is.

By the way, of all the locations you mention, the West Harbour is the one closest in proximity to the steel mills, well within its sightlines. But why should Hamilton hide its steel mills, anyway?

One final comment, for those who are encouraged by Mitchell's comments that they would work with the city to make the Bay and Barton site viable, please be aware that this is code for negotiating towards increased on-site parking, 'improved' road access (i.e. widening of Barton from Bay to Locke and Locke from Barton to York Blvd.), as well as a lower financial contribution to the project from the Ticats.

[realcity]

Why is it called Bay and Barton site? It's just as accurate to call it Caroline and Stuart. Standing at Bay and Barton you won't even know you're anywhere near water. It's ridiculous, it's barely downtown, it's barely waterfront and yet the location is being called both.

[realcity]

I can't wait until we name it... hehe... given Hamilton's track record on creative names.

[realcity]

Actually my guess for the name is
"Mount Hope Stadium"

[drpgq]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

just a coupe of comments on Geoff's posting



Ivor Wynne certainly hasn't had an lasting effect on eating, drinking and entertainment establishments in its immediate vicinity. Neither has Copps Colliseum for that matter. I am still very skeptical on how different the impact on a west harbour site 1.5 km from downtown would be from a stadium at Kay Drage, itself just under 2 km from downtown.

The Prince Edward Tavern does pretty well off of Tigercat games, which I'm sure they'll miss when the Cats leave Ivor Wynne.