$150-million Downtown Vancouver-Downtown Victoria harbour fast ferry project proposed

[johnjimbc]

I apologize if that sounds flippant, jlousa, but it is no more so than your comments have been.

I actually don't know if the business model can work or not, but at least I've said that. I can't imagine that you really know for sure, unless you have done a detailed analysis on the matter. That's my point.

Not everyone has to be in Victoria in less than a half-hour on the drop of the dime. In my line of work, meetings in Victoria are often days of scheduled meetings so as long as we can get there by start of business and get back later the same day, that is enough planning, in which case an extra hour won't make that much difference. And not everyone does travel there constantly. I have often thought if there were a convenient and relatively cost effective means of getting between the two cities, more casual visitors might make the trip.

I am constantly impressed by your knowledge of topics on this board, jlousa. I just don't see how you can be so completely confident - to the point of being condescending - on this one topic of discussion. If you do indeed know it won't work and can show why, I would genuinely be interested in understanding it better. I just don't see how the idea can be dismissed out of hand.

The folks planning this may be wrong, but they seem to think it's worth exploring. I hope they can find a way to make it work, but I'm not wedded to the idea.

Have a good day.

[jlousa]

I'm not sure why you're being so defensive, unless this is your idea. This has been tried before, not just once, it ends in failure. 90minutes can not compete with the seaplanes which you can walk on and off in ~30min it's a world of difference not just a few minutes. The $100 (return) you can save isn't worth 2hrs of time to a company or a business person. There is a market but it's small. They are looking at 500person capacity there is no way that thing will operate anywhere near capacity, and if they manage to load it up how many trips at 500 people does one expect it to make in a day, maybe 1, 2 max that limits things for alot of their clientele? There just isn't that much demand. But what do I know, apparently he has 3 unnamed investors with $150Million willing to jump on board. Maybe they can invest in the Parayso hotel too. (inside joke)

I don't know the numbers but using there own numbers, that $150Million assuming the investors are willing to part with their money for a measly 5% is $7.5Million/yr, that's almost $21K/day. So right off the bat the first 400 clients each and every day are only paying the interest on the money you borrowed. I can only guess what the expenses would be paying for fuel, staffing (a 500person vessel will need a sizable staff for safety reasons), and maintenance, then there is dock lease fees, insurance will be huge cost, ticketing staff. The numbers just don't look good. That's why I stated in my original post that there isn't a business case for this venture. BC Ferries could probably make a go of it but that's because it's subsidized.

[SpongeG]

they interviewed some people on the TV and some had concern about the price

and is there really that much business done between the two cities?

[punkster1982]

There is a ton of business between the two cities.....mostly civil servants though, and I'm sure the government gets a pretty sweet deal for helijet and seaplanes. Neither of those options would exist without civil servants.

I grew up in Victoria and go back all the time to visit family and friends. If I was willing to pay $50 instead of $13.50 to save myself some time, I'd prolly just fork out another $50 and fly standby on a seaplane.

Most people who commute regularly who are not doing it for business either drive on or know people on either end who pick them up/drop them off. The rest are either cheap or students. Plus the fact traveling to downtown would involve backtracking for most people, as downtown on either end is on the edge of a city, serving a limited market, especially conisdering you've already invested 90 minutes + of your time.

These are the people who would be the bread and butter of this service and it wouldn't/couldn't meet their needs. Yes, some people might visit Victoria more often for a long weekend etc, but not anywhere near the 1 million people the article says will use it, and certainly not enough to make it viable. Even the Nanaimo runs could never make a profit on past tries, without any competition and a more direct routing.

[johnjimbc]

jlousa, it's not my idea . At most it is an observation I made when I first arrived in Vancouver. It just struck me as strange that with all the ferries big and small and air services shuttling folks around from place to place here that there wasn't a passenger service between the two downtowns, that is all. It just struck me as strange. So if anything I was intrigued to hear someone was exploring it.

Perhaps I just misinterpreted your quick assessment as being flippant when you were just being direct and to the point.

It's no biggie really. You may well be correct that it wouldn't work - at least at the price point they are throwing around. As I've said, I don't claim to know either way.

Have a good one.

[johnjimbc]

PS - I did get the Parayso reference. Let's hope it's not the same, um, "business venture" as that

[jlousa]

No problem, I know I have the tendency of sounding rude online, but I'm just a to the point kind of guy, and it doesn't translate well online. I don't sound nearly as brash in person.
The company "Nautisol" actually proposed this way back in Jan 2007, the city of Victoria has not heard from them since. There is also the issue that someone in Victoria calculated the ship would need to hit 120km/hr to make the time they claim, seems a bit optimistic with the amount of traffic in that water.

[Distill3d]

wasn't this tried once before? aren't those boats sitting just out of view on the North Shore collecting rust?

[duener]

Too bad they couldn't use the Fast Cats - I remember someone saying, back in the day, that they created perfect waves for surfing... Bowen Island could turn into a great surfing destination.

[Overground]

As mentioned, this venture may not be profitable when competing with BC Ferries and float planes, helos, etc. But, the one option they could take on is Pacific Coach. It was previously posted it's surprising it hasn't been talked about. Pacific Coach is a very popular way for people to travel to and from the Island. The complaints from many though, including myself, is that it takes quite a bit of travel time to do it. I usually go by car or fly/ferry one way. I'd definitely take this fast ferry option.

Pacific Coach. Downtown to Downtown Victoria -
One Way: $43.00
Return: $84.00
Travel Time: 4 Hours

Fast Ferry venture -
One Way: $50.00
Travel Time: 90 Mins


Is there a big enough market for this type of traveller to warrant the costs associated with operating this new fast ferry venture? I don't know, but they can definitely compete with Pacific Coach in regards to cost and time. The fast ferry would take out, traffic issues, getting off and on the bus multiple times, passenger pick ups, uncomfortable bus rides, and they would have toilets.

[WarrenC12]

Somehow any travel to/from Victoria sounds expensive. I think people balk at the $50 price, but do they really know what it costs in time and money to take a BC Ferry to the island? It isn't pretty, and their prices continue to escalate much faster than inflation.

I know BC Ferries is subsidized, but are the Vancouver-Victoria/Nanaimo routes actually profitable or not?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by duener

Too bad they couldn't use the Fast Cats - I remember someone saying, back in the day, that they created perfect waves for surfing... Bowen Island could turn into a great surfing destination.

When you have ferries that create waves that are perfect for surfing, there's a huge problem... o_O

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by mr.x

When you have ferries that create waves that are perfect for surfing, there's a huge problem... o_O

Yep... you get people actually trying to surf them... and forgetting that the beach is made of rocks.

Hehehe...

Although I'd like to remain optimistic for this route, I think it will have a hard time surviving. However, if it can broker some deals with travel agencies and tour groups, it MAY be sustainable as a seasonal thing. The only problem is that once you're across the islands, you need some kind of transportation for a tour, so you'd need a bus on the other side anyhow, to get you to Butchart gardens etc.

In addition, the Coach lines stop at all the hotels to pick u up.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

wasn't this tried once before? aren't those boats sitting just out of view on the North Shore collecting rust?

Not out of view at all... I have a clear view of them from my condo, and my office. Good reminder about who to vote for.

[zivan56]

The Fast Cats have been purposely sabotaged by BC Ferries + current owners. When the people from Dubai came to look at buying them, they said the engines have completely seized and major rusting has occurred on non-aluminum parts due to lack of maintainence. Likewise, there is a huge mold problem and it is currently a health hazard to enter them without masks.
So there is almost no way they can be used without spending millions to restore them. Plus even if they did, the NIMBY millionaires that have their private islands along the way would start complaining and bribing people again.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by zivan56

The Fast Cats have been purposely sabotaged by BC Ferries + current owners. When the people from Dubai came to look at buying them, they said the engines have completely seized and major rusting has occurred on non-aluminum parts due to lack of maintainence. Likewise, there is a huge mold problem and it is currently a health hazard to enter them without masks.
So there is almost no way they can be used without spending millions to restore them. Plus even if they did, the NIMBY millionaires that have their private islands along the way would start complaining and bribing people again.

Give it another 15 years, they'll probably turn into this:




In 15 years time they would be too expensive to retrofit, and there won't be any purpose for them to be docked there as they will be completely worthless. Seaspan or w/e will give those ferries up to organizations that turn ships into reefs.

[djh]

Originally Posted by zivan56

The Fast Cats have been purposely sabotaged by BC Ferries + current owners. When the people from Dubai came to look at buying them, they said the engines have completely seized and major rusting has occurred on non-aluminum parts due to lack of maintainence. Likewise, there is a huge mold problem and it is currently a health hazard to enter them without masks.
So there is almost no way they can be used without spending millions to restore them. Plus even if they did, the NIMBY millionaires that have their private islands along the way would start complaining and bribing people again.

Doesn't sound like it makes much sense - you run a *business* and you buy two very expensive assets and deliberately prevent them from making you money?

Where do you get this information, zivan? Sounds less that dubious to anybody listening, unless you can explain the claim.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by djh

Doesn't sound like it makes much sense - you run a *business* and you buy two very expensive assets and deliberately prevent them from making you money?

Where do you get this information, zivan? Sounds less that dubious to anybody listening, unless you can explain the claim.

There's no coincidence that those eyesores have been displayed in very public places (down around the Deas Slough first IIRC) since the Liberals have gotten into power. It's all politics.

[djh]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

There's no coincidence that those eyesores have been displayed in very public places (down around the Deas Slough first IIRC) since the Liberals have gotten into power. It's all politics.

Wha?
a) I don't see how that response answers the question.
b) The fast ferries are owned by a private business - not the government, so even if I could discern some logical thread through what I think you're implying (which I think is "the Liberals want you to see the ferries not being used so you don't vote for the NDP as they wasted your money"), even if I could follow your logic, what has that got to do with the company that owns the ferries?

Enlighten me because I don't get it.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

There's no coincidence that those eyesores have been displayed in very public places (down around the Deas Slough first IIRC) since the Liberals have gotten into power. It's all politics.

?? This makes no sense, the fastcats are owned by Washington Marine Group... nothing to do with the BC Liberals. Where exactly would you propose we 'hide' these monsterous ferries?? Also Deas Slough a very public place?? It's in the middle of no where.

Also Zivan could you please provide some sort of supporting documentation to your claim that the sale of the fast cats has been sabotaged? I know the Liberals have certainly used the Fast-cats as a political tool, but I have never heard this rumour before. Seems somewhat illogical and improbable.