Canadian transit ridership per capita

[Doady]

Personally, I don't see much difference overall in terms of ridership between New York and Toronto. New York is definitely at least slightly higher for both the suburbs and the city. Mike needs to look no further than the stats I posted for proof. The stats for New York aren't even complete so the difference is greater.

But, IMO, the real difference is the type of transit ridership in the suburbs, with transit in New York's suburbs being more oriented toward drivers using park-and-ride facilities and the regional rail system, while transit in Toronto's suburbs are more oriented to pedestrians using the local bus services.

It is surprising actually how low the bus ridership in New York area is compared to the rail service, and I guess that is no different from the rest of America, really. If Mississauga (or any other Canadian city for that matter) had the same high level of rail service that Nassau County has, the bus ridership would be through the roof. In Canada, the rail service reinforces the bus service, but the same doesn't seem to be true for America.

So which is better: good local transit and poor regional transit vs good regional transit and poor local transit?

[Metro-One]

Ok, i see this has become another Toronto Vs. New York thread, so i am sorry to change topic.

I grew up on the eastern most edge of greater Vancouver in a suburb called Maple Ridge, in fact i lived on the outer edge of this suburb on a rural farm street (with about 2 to 5 acre housing plots) and even this street had bus service 6 times a day going to the main bus depot in Maple Ridge. Maple Ridge itself ran regular buses until midnight on most of its inner/main routs, and this city is not vertical, it has a lot of town house sprawl. This bus service really did help out high school students, before driving age, to get to core areas for shopping and fun not to mention seniors and those with disabilities. For just getting to and from school we also have the big yellow school buses.

You do not have to choose between having good local transit or good regional transit, you can have both, Americans need to start thinking more about the community. I know this is scary "socialism" but if you look at any world stat the majority of sustainable nations are socialist (socialist nations still are capitalist, they are free markets, but more of the wealth is shared) or at least have good public transportation and more government control on businesses. What the banks did to the US and now the world economy shows you exactly what happens when you have uncontrolled capitalism. The big people in charge only think about what they can make today and not what will happen tomorrow

I support free markets, they just need to be regulated a little more and people have to start thinking more about the community, and public transport is a big part of that community.

[ikerrin]

Of course, all of you are missing the obvious point that those "Centre of the Universe" Torontonians have you all arguing whether Toronto or New York is the leading city in North America. Where are the folks from Chicago, Boston and LA arguing how great their city transit is compared to Toronto?

You gotta watch Toronto boosters. They're sly ones. Next they will be arguing that Vancouver is in the Western suburbs just past Scarborough

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by ikerrin

Of course, all of you are missing the obvious point that those "Centre of the Universe" Torontonians have you all arguing whether Toronto or New York is the leading city in North America. Where are the folks from Chicago, Boston and LA arguing how great their city transit is compared to Toronto?

You gotta watch Toronto boosters. They're sly ones. Next they will be arguing that Vancouver is in the Western suburbs just past Scarborough

No one said that Toronto is the "centre of the universe", contrary to what you claim. Just that it has better suburban transit service. The thread wasn't even started by a Torontonian, it was started by Dan.

Nice trolling though. Keep it up.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Ok, i see this has become another Toronto Vs. New York thread, so i am sorry to change topic.

I grew up on the eastern most edge of greater Vancouver in a suburb called Maple Ridge, in fact i lived on the outer edge of this suburb on a rural farm street (with about 2 to 5 acre housing plots) and even this street had bus service 6 times a day going to the main bus depot in Maple Ridge. Maple Ridge itself ran regular buses until midnight on most of its inner/main routs, and this city is not vertical, it has a lot of town house sprawl. This bus service really did help out high school students, before driving age, to get to core areas for shopping and fun not to mention seniors and those with disabilities. For just getting to and from school we also have the big yellow school buses.

You do not have to choose between having good local transit or good regional transit, you can have both, Americans need to start thinking more about the community. I know this is scary "socialism" but if you look at any world stat the majority of sustainable nations are socialist (socialist nations still are capitalist, they are free markets, but more of the wealth is shared) or at least have good public transportation and more government control on businesses. What the banks did to the US and now the world economy shows you exactly what happens when you have uncontrolled capitalism. The big people in charge only think about what they can make today and not what will happen tomorrow

I support free markets, they just need to be regulated a little more and people have to start thinking more about the community, and public transport is a big part of that community.

That sounds like commie talk to me! Next thing you'll be talking about socialized medicine and other such nonsense

[Doady]

- someone from Washington starts thread about comparing Canadian transit ridership to American, specifically asking for comparisons between Toronto and New York

- Torontonians get blamed for starting the comparisons between Toronto and New York and get labeled as fanboys

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by Doady

- someone from Washington starts thread about comparing Canadian transit ridership to American, specifically asking for comparisons between Toronto and New York

- Torontonians get blamed for starting the comparisons between Toronto and New York and get labeled as fanboys

Funny, I've never seen a Torontonian start a thread comparing Toronto transit stats vs. New York transit stats. How is Torontonians describing transit in Toronto in a thread started by an American "boosting" as some trolls call it? It's just discussing the topic at hand.

[Okstate]

Just FYI, Portland is at 309,900 daily riders. (don't know about linked/unlinked)
At 2.17 million that brings us to 142 rides per capita. Right under Vancouver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by Okstate

Just FYI, Portland is at 309,900 daily riders. (don't know about linked/unlinked)
At 2.17 million that brings us to 142 rides per capita. Right under Vancouver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet

No it doesn't. I think you need to check your math. That's 52 rides per capita (309/2170 * 365) if that 309k is 7 days week. That's probably weekday ridership though, which would make it even lower.

[Doady]

yeah according to Okstate, Portland actually has 0.142 rides per capita. So that would actually put Portland right under Nashville. Quite a difference from my own calculation. Perhaps the whole table is wrong and should be deleted.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Okstate

Just FYI, Portland is at 309,900 daily riders. (don't know about linked/unlinked)
At 2.17 million that brings us to 142 rides per capita. Right under Vancouver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet

That's far from Vancouver... Vancouver's daily boarding in Fall 2007 is:

SkyTrain			  271,078
West Coast Express Train	   10,060
West Coast Express TrainBus	    1,209
SeaBus				   15,728
B-Lines				   81,536
Conventional Bus		  653,395
Community Shuttles		   55,016
==========================================
TOTAL				1,088,022

To get 140 riders per capita for Portland, you need daily boarding of about 1 million.

[miketoronto]

Those boardings for Vancouver look like unliked trips though, which inflates the ridership.
You have to use linked trips which are around 700,000-800,000 daily trips for Greater Vancouver.

Portland's ridership numbers are also unlinked, which inflates the numbers. If you take out transfers, the ridership would below 300,000.

[ikerrin]

Originally Posted by J. Will

No one said that Toronto is the "centre of the universe", contrary to what you claim. Just that it has better suburban transit service. The thread wasn't even started by a Torontonian, it was started by Dan.

Nice trolling though. Keep it up.

Please lighten up! I was just trying to lighten up a discussion that has gotten way to earnest. Go back and read some of the old posts in the discussion and look at the way you guys have been slagging each other. Have you guys forgotten that we all are on this site because we are a bunch of geeks that love cities and everything to do with them.

Besides, I secretly believe that Toronto is the centre of the universe.

Seriously, though. I think one of the most troubling things about Toronto's public transit system is how easily it is to lose momentum. I am probably older than most of you guys on this site, the last few decades seem like a lost period to transit. There was an amazing plan to build communities around the subway as it moved North and East/West and then it just stopped. We went from building walkable neighbourhoods around subway stations to drivable and busable neighbourhoods around GO Train stations. Its still remarkably transit friendly but imagine how different the city would look if we had designed for neighbourhoods that look like St. Claire or Eglington rather than Ajax.

[nname]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

Those boardings for Vancouver look like unliked trips though, which inflates the ridership.
You have to use linked trips which are around 700,000-800,000 daily trips for Greater Vancouver.

Yes, they are unlinked trips (hence the word "boarding"). For linked trip, its 676,500.

[jaxg8r1]

Originally Posted by Okstate

Just FYI, Portland is at 309,900 daily riders. (don't know about linked/unlinked)
At 2.17 million that brings us to 142 rides per capita. Right under Vancouver.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet

http://www.apta.com/research/stats/r...ts/08q3rep.pdf (pdf file) Per the APTA, Portland (Trimet) has the following:

DRP : 3,800
LR: 110,700
MB: 219,100
Total: 333,600

Also note that Trimet doesn't service the whole metro area, in fact the Tri in Trimet is because the service area is 3 counties (Mult, Wash and Clack). Even then, some of the outlying areas within those 3 counties aren't in the service area. The Trimet service area is probably closer to around 1.5-1.6 million. Vancouver, WA across the river has their own transit system which averages 24,400 boardings per day. Wilsonville also has their own smalls system.

So assuming just the Trimet service area, and 1.6 million people in it, Portland has around 197326133 boardings per year, or about 123 per capita.

Hope that helps

[nname]

Originally Posted by jaxg8r1

Portland has around 197326133 boardings per year

Where do you get this number from? Even multiplying the daily boarding by 365 doesn't get close to this much.

From the official statistics, the annual boarding seems to be 96,918,000.

[alexjon]

Originally Posted by Doady

- someone from Washington starts thread about comparing Canadian transit ridership to American, specifically asking for comparisons between Toronto and New York

- Torontonians get blamed for starting the comparisons between Toronto and New York and get labeled as fanboys

Actually, Mike and his pet tend to stray threads gently in that direction.

It's amusing though

[J. Will]

alexjon's feeeling are hurt again. Maybe he will troll the internet to find if another Canadian transit system has gone on strike so he can start a thread about it to get his "revenge". That's show'em!

As far as straying threads gently in a certain direction, this is a troll he posts off-topic BS like population density figures, city "importance", and other nonsense. It's what I like to call pre-emptive damage control. Never does he actually contribute to the OP's question.

[NYaMtl]

Originally Posted by Gordo

Meh, I think it has a lot more to do with the suburbs of Montreal and Toronto having much more transit-friendly design and less auto-only orientation. It all comes down to design.

Seriously? Montreal's western suburbs might as well be in Long Island, and Laval might as well be Charlotte, NC., if you're just looking at the way they are built. I've always wondered, with its half-built metro network, slow-as-hell buses, and crumbling commuter lines, how the city manages to attract and keep so many riders (myself included).

It might have something to do with the fact that once you enter the central part of the island, having a car can be a nightmare--even moreso than parts of New York City. Parking signs are often impossible to decipher, we get meters of snow in the winter time, large volumes of pedestrian traffic combined with a penchant for disobeying traffic signals, crumbling road beds and potholes, bridge congestion (there are basically only two high-volume bridges connecting the downtown core with the south shore suburbs), etc. It could also be a cost thing, as transit passes are still cheap.

In some cases, it might even be a speed thing...there are plenty of trips *within* the city that are faster using the metro than going by car. Even late at night with lower frequencies, I can get from here (centre-sud) to anywhere in the plateau, downtown, Hochelaga, even parts of Rosemont, Westmount, or Outremont in 20-30 minutes. At these hours a car would be faster, but certainly not during rush hour or festival season.

[J. Will]

Originally Posted by NYaMtl

Seriously? Montreal's western suburbs might as well be in Long Island, and Laval might as well be Charlotte, NC., if you're just looking at the way they are built. I've always wondered, with its half-built metro network, slow-as-hell buses, and crumbling commuter lines, how the city manages to attract and keep so many riders (myself included).

It might have something to do with the fact that once you enter the central part of the island, having a car can be a nightmare--even moreso than parts of New York City. Parking signs are often impossible to decipher, we get meters of snow in the winter time, large volumes of pedestrian traffic combined with a penchant for disobeying traffic signals, crumbling road beds and potholes, bridge congestion (there are basically only two high-volume bridges connecting the downtown core with the south shore suburbs), etc. It could also be a cost thing, as transit passes are still cheap.

In some cases, it might even be a speed thing...there are plenty of trips *within* the city that are faster using the metro than going by car. Even late at night with lower frequencies, I can get from here (centre-sud) to anywhere in the plateau, downtown, Hochelaga, even parts of Rosemont, Westmount, or Outremont in 20-30 minutes. At these hours a car would be faster, but certainly not during rush hour or festival season.

There is little difference in the built environment between typical Canadian and American suburbs. They both have wide, pedestrian-unfriendly arterial roads, subdivisions with only a few entrances off those roads, winding cul-de-sac road layouts which can turn a 500 foot "as the crow flies" walk into a 2000 foot walk, commercial buildings that are almost always set back from the street, usually behind large parking lots, and almost universal auto ownership even amongst the poor. Residential highrises may be a little more common in Canadian suburbs, but they rarely contribute to density or an urban built environment. They're usually set back from the street surrounded by lots of useless open space, and rarely have ground floor commercial space. Because of all the "grounds" surrounding them, their total residential density is often no higher than if townhomes or even single family homes occupied the same space.

The difference in transit ridership is primarily due to the difference in the level of service provided. Provide service from early morning until late at night at decent frequencies seven days a week on all major arterial roads and you can get decent ridership numbers no matter what the built environment.