Pattullo Bridge Discussion: Upgrades/Replacement | U/C

[djh]

Originally Posted by djh

Repair? I thought it was structurally sound, and the main 'repairs' per se were to make it safer - i.e., centre medians, etc. Is that not correct?

Can somebody answer this please. Thx

[Jared]

Originally Posted by djh

Can somebody answer this please. Thx

What you outlined in your previous post accounts for a good chunck of the money, apparently.

from the article posted earlier:

"The current condition of the bridge requires a significant capital-cost investment to rehabilitate the bridge to obtain three standard-travel lanes. These rehabilitation costs would be similar to the incremental cost of providing three additional lanes on the new bridge structure," says an executive summary of the Delcan report, made available yesterday.

Also, the bridge seems to be pretty rusty, and needs some maintainance. I imagine they would have to do a lot of sandblasting to clear the rust, but since its probably lead paint, they wouldnt be allowed to let it fall into the Frazer. That means trying to catch it all. Big pain in the ass (and the chequebook).

[Punkster]

Originally Posted by ravman

Tolled Pattullo another broken promise from Campbell


“Campbell is hitting commuters with his gas tax, the highest transit fares in the country, and now we’re facing new tolls. We don’t yet know what these new tolls will look like, but one thing is very clear: Gordon Campbell wants to keep reaching into your pocketbook,” said Bains.

I'm not sure the NDP has the moral authority on these issues to make such
declarations
I love NDP press releases! Keep 'em coming

[hollywoodnorth]

LOL Ravman you are a funny sad guy Keep em coming is right and we will keep ripping em to shreads

[Distill3d]

what would be the feasabilty of not tearing down the bridge, and just making it into a pedestrian/cyclist bridge over the Fraser. i've noticed that is lacking in this city, especially considering we all want to be more environmentally friendly and health conscience.

could it be renovated and intergrated into some sort of pathway system? i for one would hate to see the region lose such a significant structure

[Jared]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

what would be the feasabilty of not tearing down the bridge, and just making it into a pedestrian/cyclist bridge over the Fraser. i've noticed that is lacking in this city, especially considering we all want to be more environmentally friendly and health conscience.

could it be renovated and intergrated into some sort of pathway system? i for one would hate to see the region lose such a significant structure

Well, hopefully they'll design the new bridge to accomodate good bike lanes and sidewalks. It's a pity they didnt think about that when they built the SkyBridge, it would have been a good place to put some bike lanes.

[mr.x]

Third toll bridge will cause traffic nightmare, NDP says
Transportation Minister denies promise broken by TransLink decision to charge for use of new Pattullo Bridge

SUNNY DHILLON
August 4, 2008

VANCOUVER -- TransLink's announcement late last week that a new Pattullo Bridge will be financed by tolls has Delta North MLA Guy Gentner concerned that a bad commute is about to get even worse.

The new Pattullo, which TransLink hopes to have constructed within 10 years at a cost of about $1-billion, will be the third Lower Mainland bridge to be tolled.

The others are the Golden Ears Bridge, which opens next summer and will span the Fraser River, and the twinned Port Mann Bridge.

The New Democratic Party's Mr. Gentner said that means commuters wanting to enter the Surrey area while avoiding tolls will have just one option.

"If this is the only toll-free alternative, the toll evaders from the Pattullo and the Port Mann are going to find their way to our community over the Alex Fraser [Bridge]," Mr. Gentner said.

"Our streets are congested as it is. Our community was never built for that kind of traffic. North Delta is becoming the doormat for everybody going home from work over the Alex Fraser, to Surrey and points beyond."

Surrey-Newton MLA Harry Bains, also a New Democrat, said the new Pattullo will have "a domino effect" on commuters who have to trek from one bridge to the next to save money.

"People in Delta, people who live around the Alex Fraser, won't appreciate that," he said.

"It's already congested."

NDP MLA and transportation opposition critic Maurine Karagianis said TransLink's decision will not only mean increased traffic on the Alex Fraser, but also proves that yet another promise made by B.C.'s Liberal government has been broken.

"When the Liberal government proposed the twinning of the Port Mann Bridge," she said, "there was a promise implicit in that there would be no tolling of the Pattullo Bridge so that there was a toll-free option offered to commuters.

"It's very disappointing to see now that TransLink finds itself with inadequate funding to replace this bridge and having to look at tolling it. It really narrows the number of options for commuters."

Minister of Transportation Kevin Falcon shot back that any accusations his government went against its word are "silly."

Mr. Falcon pointed out that the $1-billion South Fraser perimeter road that recently received environmental approval will allow drivers to get from the Pattullo to the Alex Fraser in five minutes, drastically cutting down on congestion.

He also said not all drivers will be flocking to the Alex Fraser because it is a free alternative.

"A modest toll does not act as a big dissuasion for people to make a travel decision. At least that's what all the traffic studies tell us.

"When you do the traffic modelling, what you find - and the Port Mann is the best example - is that today when people are spending 4½ hours sitting on a bridge, wasting time, if they have the option of paying a few dollars to get across it a lot faster, people will do that."

There have been 28 fatalities on the Pattullo Bridge since 1986.

According to the Insurance Corp. of British Columbia, the injury totals on the bridge and its surrounding area for the past five years are 140 in 2003; 110 in 2004; 100 in 2005; 100 in 2006; and 40 in 2007.

ICBC spokesperson Kathy Taylor said the decrease in injuries can be largely attributed to the centre lanes on the narrow bridge being closed every night to prevent head-on collisions, as well as the lowering of the speed limit.

TransLink's board voted July 31 in favour of building the new Pattullo, which will be located either 50 metres downstream or upstream from the current bridge and have six lanes.

The agency's chief executive officer, Tom Prendergast, said the decision was based on the fact that "it would cost as much to rehabilitate the Pattullo to provide three lanes for 50 years as it would to add three lanes on a new bridge that will last 100 years."

Decisions on whether a rail crossing will be integrated into the new bridge or what the tolls will be have not yet been made.





Hard to imagine that the NDP actually makes good points. I could also see people wanting to take the Alex Fraser Bridge route......but really, by the time the new Patullo is built gas prices will probably be double what they are now or more. By then, it might be cheaper (or cost the same) to just go through the tolled bridge than to make the detour and use another litre of $3.00+ gas.

They could also toll the Alex Fraser to solve problems.

They're doing the right thing by tolling the Patullo....hopefully, this eventually leads to region wide tolling on every major crossing.

[lightrail]

"Mr. Falcon pointed out that the $1-billion South Fraser perimeter road that recently received environmental approval will allow drivers to get from the Pattullo to the Alex Fraser in five minutes, drastically cutting down on congestion"

Who writes this crap for Falcon and does he really believe that? Sure, when the road first opens, it will take five minutes..... to reach the hour long line-up to get on the Alex Fraser. After a few years, the perimeter road will be congested and subject to delays.

And in 10 years, the Perimeter road will be just like Highway 1 now - a big parking lot.

[deasine]

I find it hard to believe that THAT MANY people would decide to take the Alex Fraser over the Patullo & Port Mann...

[Distill3d]

what's with this province and toll bridges? the Lion's Gate used to be a toll bridge, they're making the Golden Ears a toll bridge, the second Port Mann is going to be a toll bridge, and now they want to make the new Patullo a toll bridge? this is ridiculous. doesn't the province have a budget surplus that could cover the cost of these bridges?

[Nutterbug]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

what's with this province and toll bridges? the Lion's Gate used to be a toll bridge, they're making the Golden Ears a toll bridge, the second Port Mann is going to be a toll bridge, and now they want to make the new Patullo a toll bridge? this is ridiculous. doesn't the province have a budget surplus that could cover the cost of these bridges?

Maybe the tolls are also supposed to double as a traffic control measure.

Though in that case, it would only make sense that the proceeds from them go to fund reliable transit alternatives going the same way.

[paradigm4]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

what would be the feasabilty of not tearing down the bridge, and just making it into a pedestrian/cyclist bridge over the Fraser. i've noticed that is lacking in this city, especially considering we all want to be more environmentally friendly and health conscience.

could it be renovated and intergrated into some sort of pathway system? i for one would hate to see the region lose such a significant structure

I would be quite interested as well. The bridge has huge historical significance. It would be a shame to see it just torn down before all options for the infrastructure have been evaluated. For example, in New York they've turned an old, abandoned, above ground rail path (i.e. SkyTrain like) into a huge park/greenway. Or maybe we can build some interesting affordable housing up there They'll have good views at least.

It's actually quite difficult and unsafe to get across the Fraser on a bike right now so it's something that should be explored.

Also, has anyone thought of how difficult and expensive it will be to take "tear down" the bridge without having any of the pieces fall into the Fraser?

[hollywoodnorth]

Originally Posted by Distill3d

what's with this province and toll bridges? the Lion's Gate used to be a toll bridge, they're making the Golden Ears a toll bridge, the second Port Mann is going to be a toll bridge, and now they want to make the new Patullo a toll bridge? this is ridiculous. doesn't the province have a budget surplus that could cover the cost of these bridges?

The Patullo used to have tolls.....you rebuild it.........you toll for a bit to recover the costs.....seems logical to me

[cornholio]

Who writes this crap. So they think people will drive 10-20km out of their way to use the congested Alex Fraser, loose probably 15-30min of their time to save $2.50 in tolls while spending $1.50 a litre to get there. I mean there are some idiots out there that are stupid enough to actually do this and think their saving money, but I have a hard time believing that this number would be significant.

[flight_from_kamakura]

i strongly favor tolls, and though the ndp makes the case from the irritation perspective (a smart political move, and one that i imagine gentner really does feel), i think it's hard to argue that tolls on these bridges don't make sense from a public policy perspective. they recuperate sunken costs, reduce traffic and eventually provide maintenance dollars. the only question here is planning: falcon here is dreaming if he doesn't believe that *a lot* of people will indeed drive those extra kilometers to save the $2-$3 toll. the smart solution would be to concoct some reason to add tolls to the alex fraser too.

[twoNeurons]

I think you'll find that it depends on where people are going. People from South Vancouver and Burnaby will likely take the Alex Fraser if they're going to Surrey... but then again, most of them already probably do (who wants to go through downtown New West).

As for me, it's faster to take the #1 to Cloverdale... but I'll probably end up taking Boundary down to the Alex Fraser and the upgraded #10.

#1 via Port Mann and Kingsway Via Patullo are the same distance.

Boundary via Alex Fraser is 6km longer and about 10 minutes... or about 1/2 litre of fuel. Assuming the bridges will be tolled 24-hours, I'll probably take the Alex Fraser... however, if I'm going anywhere East of there, I'll be taking a tolled bridge.

I think tolling the Patullo is a really smart idea. With the SFPR connecting these areas so conveniently, a LOT of people would otherwise be getting off the highway at 176th to take the Patullo to avoid toll. This makes the Main route (#1) and the toll-free alternative (Alex Fraser) inconvenient enough to ward off toll-avoiders.

For most trips, the toll will be cheaper... even at TODAY'S gas prices.

[sacrifice333]

every crossing in the lower mainland should be tolled with price differences based a) on busiest routes vs. less populated and also b) on time of day.

[officedweller]

Yeah, it all depends on destinations. From Surrey, if your destination is north Burnaby, the connections through New Westminster are poor - they generally funnel traffic to the west, not to the east or north. Congestion through New Westminster city from Queensborough would deter people from using that route. Plus the reconfiguration at the north end of the Queensborough Bridge I think has removed a connection to one of the east-west numbered streets in New Westminster so you would have to take Stewardson Way/Columbia.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by sacrifice333

every crossing in the lower mainland should be tolled with price differences based a) on busiest routes vs. less populated and also b) on time of day.

I wouldn't think tolling everywhere is appropriate. I would want them to be tolling most crossings but still leave a way for people to get from one place to another without paying the tools (despite longer distance).

Eventually, I have a feeling the Massey Tunnel will be tolled after they upgrade the 99.

[geoff's two cents]

I'm with sacrifice333 in that universal tolling, it seems to me, would enable the government to adjust rates according to levels of congestion in certain areas at certain times of the day.

As for leaving at least one free route, wouldn't it make more sense to have negligibly low fares on less-used routes? 50 cents or a dollar wouldn't deter anybody if it was significantly less than the cost of using other routes, but would provide a source of revenue that pays for itself time and again. If people got the impression that these revenues are building better, safer bridges, surely that would make a difference.

Leaving one route free would strike me as politics, pure and simple. The Libs know if they toll all the bridges, on top of the carbon tax, that the (somewhat less green than they used to be) NDP will be all over that. A free route would not only miss out on valuable revenue at minimal user expense, but (and here I disagree with those who take a minimal level of average intelligence for granted) I'm sure that many people (many of whom already have the mistaken impression that transit is a horrible way to go) would go significantly out of their way, spend an extra 20 to 30 minutes driving, an extra $5-10 on gas, etc., if they thought they were somehow getting one back by not paying the toll.

Let's also consider the additional cost to the environment (in terms of natural beauty [isn't the air quality there already bad enough?], but also land values in surrounding municipalities) of a congested Alex Fraser!

I agree with paradigm4's suggestion that the possibility of leaving the Patullo as a greenway should be looked into (though I somehow cannot see it working with a bridge that size, given the paucity of cyclists currently living in the Scott Road area, and the lack of those living in New West and wanting to cycle to that part of Surrey). Needless to say, any conversion of the bridge to pedestrian/cycling traffic would involve significant infrastructure changes on both sides of the river - not just approaches, etc., but in Surrey, the issue of land use as well. It's not a process, I think, that would be financially competitive with tearing the old bridge down (though I agree that that would be a shame). Having said that, Vancouver and Greater Vancouver have spawned some pretty innovative ideas - A brainstorm on what to do with the old bridge would likely yield some interesting suggestions!