Metro Vancouver Road Infrastructure Discussion

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

It's 9:30am and there's still crazy congestion between the PMB and Burnaby Lake. To make matters worse, it seems like congestion is returning to the Patullo and New Westminster in the mornings...

If the 3 through lanes keep getting clogged, more people will return to their former commuting habits. I never use the 3 through lanes but I have noticed more people are doing what I do but driving slow... hate that.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by DKaz

He's never complained about the tolls. Now he's saying the bridge is overrun by people who are too cheap to take care of their vehicles let alone pay the toll so there's been an uptick not only in traffic but people's cars breaking down. Then these guys also tend to cause more accidents too.

LOL the dirty poor masses getting in the way again eh? Sorry but this guy sounds like a douchebag.

I wanted the tolls to be kept and added across all LM bridges, but I still have to laugh at your friend. He's obviously pretty out of touch with how most people live.

[ssiguy]

You can agree or disagree with the logic but they did say during the election that they would get rid of the tolls and review the GMT. We constantly bitch about politicians not doing what they promised to do and now we bitch because they implemented the promises they said they would. Can't have it both ways.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You can agree or disagree with the logic but they did say during the election that they would get rid of the tolls and review the GMT. We constantly bitch about politicians not doing what they promised to do and now we bitch because they implemented the promises they said they would. Can't have it both ways.

Well I didn't vote for the NDP because of their promises to stop the GMB and to remove tolls, so I sure as hell do have a right to criticize these decisions. Not having it both ways

PS, thanks Klazu

[logicbomb]

Another big accident causing massive delays on Highway 1 this afternoon. Stall on PM too.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

LOL the dirty poor masses getting in the way again eh?

This bridge would be so great for my commute if only it wasn't for all these other d@mn drivers!

Pot, meet kettle.

[Metro-One]

You honestly don't think that transit users would feel the exact same if suddenly tomorrow Skytrain and buses become free?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

You honestly don't think that transit users would feel the exact same if suddenly tomorrow Skytrain and buses become free?

If transit were free then there would be massive overcrowding, even more so than today. Does anyone here remember what happened after the bus strike in 2001? As a gesture of good will when the strike finished the Seabus was free for a few days. The lineups to board it went the length of the overhead walkway from Waterfront Station.

There's no practical limit to the number of people who will line up to take advantage of a free facility. Which is exactly why we have road congestion, and why some sort of road pricing makes so much sense. Again, it doesn't have to be expensive - it just has to be enough to get some of their drivers motivated enough to rethink their trips.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

You can agree or disagree with the logic but they did say during the election that they would get rid of the tolls and review the GMT. We constantly bitch about politicians not doing what they promised to do and now we bitch because they implemented the promises they said they would. Can't have it both ways.

Only 40% of the population voted for the tolls to go. Ok maybe more than that in the Lower Mainland. The collective vote does not represent each individual.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

If transit were free then there would be massive overcrowding, even more so than today. Does anyone here remember what happened after the bus strike in 2001? As a gesture of good will when the strike finished the Seabus was free for a few days. The lineups to board it went the length of the overhead walkway from Waterfront Station.

There's no practical limit to the number of people who will line up to take advantage of a free facility. Which is exactly why we have road congestion, and why some sort of road pricing makes so much sense. Again, it doesn't have to be expensive - it just has to be enough to get some of their drivers motivated enough to rethink their trips.

Go back 3 years ago to BC Day when transit was free for the masses as a make up gesture from Translink for the recent breakdowns. Buses and skytrains were absolutely packed. It was worth not traveling into downtown that day. Look at other examples to see how "free" or "discount" triggers and irrational need or desire. Ie. Salt wars, free PNE admission, warehouse sales, 67 cent hamburgers.

The risk and added time of avoiding the tolls really highlights how irrational people are in the region. The desire for "discount" or "free alternative" always comes which a greatly added cost...

Back on topic:

I think this highlights what's occurred with recent traffic trends. A 6k decrease in traffic over the Patullo from Sept 2016 to 2017, but 30k increase (sourced in the province) on the PMB. Traffic has also significantly increased on the GEB. Static on the Alex Fraser and GMT. Just proves that removing the tolls enabled more people to drive again.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I think this highlights what's occurred with recent traffic trends. A 6k decrease in traffic over the Patullo from Sept 2016 to 2017, but 30k increase (sourced in the province) on the PMB. Traffic has also significantly increased on the GEB. Static on the Alex Fraser and GMT. Just proves that removing the tolls enabled more people to drive again.

GMT definitely saw some relief after the tolls were removed. August overall was a disastrous month for the GMT (despite the expected summer lull) with near daily traffic issues. So far, September has actually been a bit smoother than August.

[SFUVancouver]

The Liberals also committed to reducing tolls, before doing a hail-Mary and announcing their elimination, so they were absolutely on board the "blow up the budget by cutting toll revenue" train. They cannot wash their hands of this.

I think that it was a stupid thing to broach by both parties and will induce congestion.

[M00dy]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

The Liberals also committed to reducing tolls, before doing a hail-Mary and announcing their elimination, so they were absolutely on board the "blow up the budget by cutting toll revenue" train. They cannot wash their hands of this.

I think that it was a stupid thing to broach by both parties and will induce congestion.

The liberals were saying pretty much anything they could think of at the end there to keep their sinking ship afloat...

[DKaz]

I personally had choice words for free loading Coquitlam/Maple Ridge bound drivers clogging up Hwy 1 when I commuted there. They were easy to point out -- clogging up the poor Lougheed Hwy/Mary Hill Bypass exits. Although I later got a motorcycle to bypass all that traffic by using the HOV lanes.

Everyone can be a freeloader now.

[ClaytonA]

Interesting how experience closely correlates with academic studies of previous experience. Even the first % increases are pretty close:

http://globalnews.ca/news/3737799/tr...t-mann-bridge/

... On Sept. 5, during the first day back to school, traffic on the Port Mann Bridge reached 148,000 vehicles. That’s compared to 119,000 the same day a year before.

That’s a 24 per cent increase in traffic.

...

“That bridge has been under-utilized for a very long time. I’m not surprised given the tolls are off the numbers are up, but I don’t think they’ve escalated to the point where the diversion puts it in an arena of real concern yet.”

Hepner said traffic volumes are up between 25 and 30 per cent compared to when the tolls were in place. ...

https://web.archive.org/web/20170914...of-congestion/

... planners estimate that, in major cities, there is up to a 30 percent volume of ”œlatent” traffic in the system. Latent traffic consists primarily of people who would like to take a trip at a given time, but have chosen not to because of congestion. Because of this latent traffic, any increase in the carrying capacity of the road network will be instantly absorbed, as the decrease in travel time brings new drivers onto the road. (Hence the saying that building new roads to ease congestion is like loosening your belt to cure obesity.) ...

[ClaytonA]

Worth quoting too;

... Yet strangely, when David Miller brought up the issue of road tolls in the most recent Toronto mayoral election, people started throwing conniption fits. Miller’s camp beat a hasty retreat, and in so doing, allowed the debate to become seriously distorted. In particular, they failed to correct the impression that road tolls would force drivers to pay for something that they are currently getting at no cost. But there is a cost. We pay in the form of lost time. When we impose a road toll, we are simply exchanging time for money: pay $5, get home 20 minutes earlier. I’m sure all those folks in the fancy cars idling on the DVP would be happy to take that trade.

”œWhat about the poor?” comes the inevitable objection. ”œShouldn’t they be able to use the roads too?” But this is deeply muddled. It’s like saying we should combat homelessness by giving everyone in the entire society a free house. The best way to address the transit needs of the poor is to address the transit needs of the poor, not to give everyone in our society free roads. ...

http://policyoptions.irpp.org/magazi...of-congestion/

And this is why transportation should be treated wholistically as a system and vehicle users also contribute to cycling and transit investments. We're all in this together.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

Interesting how experience closely correlates with academic studies of previous experience. Even the first % increases are pretty close:

And this is exactly why a tolled 10-lane Massey Tunnel is overkill. In fact, the current congestion problem could be solved incredibly cheaply by just slapping a toll on the tunnel. It doesn't have to be a flat toll - it could be selectively applied during congested periods. And it probably doesn't even have to be an expensive toll - chances are a $1/trip toll would dissuade enough people to make a huge difference.

No politician would ever do that, of course, but for any rational thinking person it's the obvious solution.

[flipper316]

more obsession with traffic lights in this region. drove by on 152nd today and was shocked to see lights being setup at the development by the golf course. yet another set of lights on this road. how many more do we need.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

Worth quoting too;



http://policyoptions.irpp.org/magazi...of-congestion/

And this is why transportation should be treated wholistically as a system and vehicle users also contribute to cycling and transit investments. We're all in this together.

Society is becoming more numb and ignorant hence why any road pricing/tolls will continue to be seen as a "guvvamint money" grabber instead of a congestion tax to promote carpooling and other forms of transportation.

It is 7:00pm on a Thursday evening and EB Highway #1 is totally clogged from 152nd to the Cape Horn due to a rundown van that lost an axle. This is why I continue to take the Patullo. Overheard on CKNW that accidents and stalls have nearly tripled on Highway #1 since the tolls were removed. Go figure.

Originally Posted by flipper316

more obsession with traffic lights in this region. drove by on 152nd today and was shocked to see lights being setup at the development by the golf course. yet another set of lights on this road. how many more do we need.

Much like Vancouver. Surrey will gradually aim to reduce speed limits and bring more traffic intersections across many high sped routes. Many of these are lacking sensors to slow down traffic (by having more frequent red lights) and existing intersections have seen sensors removed (also due to cost). I personally don't like this but they see it as a measure to improve safety.

KGB has between 108th Ave to 96th Ave has seen 5 lights added with maybe 2 more coming. There are plans to add more pedestrian lights between 92nd Ave to 80th Ave to improve safety.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

It is 7:00pm on a Thursday evening and EB Highway #1 is totally clogged from 152nd to the Cape Horn due to a rundown van that lost an axle. This is why I continue to take the Patullo. Overheard on CKNW that accidents and stalls have nearly tripled on Highway #1 since the tolls were removed. Go figure.

The amount of crap vehicles on Hwy #1 has definitely increased since Sept 1st. Probably an accident and stall every day clogging up traffic. Vote buying = a return to congestion.