Vancouver and the Underground Pedestrian System

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Toronto's system is intentionally designed to be frustrating to get around--you're supposed to give up, then spend some money in a hurry.

I've been in Vancouver's version of underground city--iirc, you can walk from Pender to West Georgia underground, from a sky train station etc. Think of it as a hamlet compared to Toronto's PATH "city."

I was not thinking of trying to ape Toronto's "PATH" or Montreal's Underground city. I was simply trying to present the idea of making certain key connections easier by putting them underground, instead of crosssing noisy, busy, smoggy streets.

As for Toronto's sytem being so much larger than ours, they - and Montreal - need it more than we do. They have deep, freezing, snowy, icy, windy winter weather nearly six months of the year.

In Vancouver it snows on average 11 days per year.

My idea was simply connecting more easity and getting around more easily in the downtown area; not building some concrete underground Xanadu.

[SpongeG]

again what the F**k is at robson square that makes it so vital and worth such an enormous expense? NOTHING is there

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

again what the F**k is at robson square that makes it so vital and worth such an enormous expense? NOTHING is there

"Nothing" is there because it has been allowed to slither downwards and become a waste of space.
In the thread "Robson Squre Improvements....." some months back, people discussed the potential of what Robson Square could offer if the will was there.
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The potential was not just skating around the rink, or even restaurants, chamber music, and a sort of "civic squre" for downtown. The potential was for future transit connections, (as another line may get built through there one day) and as a shortcut for people living in the West End, plus as a connector to upcoming hotels and residences - like the *Georgia* - not to mention other properties immediately adjoining it like the Hotel Vancouver, the HKSB building, the Pacific Centre, the Law Courts, plus Robson Street itself, and all the residences along Hornby Street .....
It is also a gateway to the West End, and is the "back yard" of the VAG, which, when the "Georgia" is finished, will become a sought after square on Georgia Street, as well as putting the VAG building itself into higher profile, which will attract more people, and more diverse activities.
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It was pointed out by many that there is nothing at Robson Square because we have let it get that way. Robson Square offers enormous potential if willpower and imagination are harnessed.
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If people continue to say "Nothing at Robson Square! ... Nothing at Robson Square! ...." it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a potentially vital civic space goes to waste. It requires time and energy to get it up and running again, but it can be done, and is starting to be done.
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Robson Sqaure is sort of a central connection point for downtown, and unlike the shopping centres, does not open at 9:00 and close at 6:00. It is always open, and if it has something interesting to offer, will attract people at all times, in all seasons.
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Again, may I suggest you go back to the "Robson Square" thread a couple of months and look it over. A lot of people came up with lots of creative ideas and images.

[jlousa]

I can see SpongeG point, about there being no gain by connecting Robson Square to our little underground path. Robson Square for better or worse is our outdoor gathering space. If there is something going on at the square it will involve people being outside anyways so why spend a lot of money moving people along an underground path to dump them outside? If they are going to be outdoor at the end they might as well get there outdoors and add to the street life.
That's why in my opinion if we were to extend the link it should be with another internal structure such as Sinclair Centre or to the Bentall complex but there isn't really the need for it.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I can see SpongeG point, about there being no gain by connecting Robson Square to our little underground path. Robson Square for better or worse is our outdoor gathering space. If there is something going on at the square it will involve people being outside anyways so why spend a lot of money moving people along an underground path to dump them outside? If they are going to be outdoor at the end they might as well get there outdoors and add to the street life.
That's why in my opinion if we were to extend the link it should be with another internal structure such as Sinclair Centre or to the Bentall complex but there isn't really the need for it.

I see your point clearly. I was thinking of getting to, and through Robson Square with ease, out of the traffic and out of the rain that's all. I guess it's not a big deal.

[SpikePhanta]

Well I've been to Montreal many times, and the Underground doesnt kill the street life during the Summer. St.Catherines and most Montreal streets are busy along with the Underground in the major parts (Centre Eatons, ect.)

I just think it won't happen since most buildings are completed would cost more making the underground.

[trofirhen]

A forum member recently complained that Pacific Centre is tiny, small, and not a good shopping destination.
While I would somewhat disagree with that - given that, as another member researched - it is the ninth largest mall in Canada, it isn't tiny, but could use something, somehow, to improve it without creating a gargantuan "thing" that does indeed suck the life out of street retail in a relatively modest city the size of Vancouver.

I suggested linking it up with the Sinclair Centre and Robson Square, and people said "naaaaaaaaaaaah."

But this does remain an issue to be addressed nevertheless. Thank you all.

[Metro-One]

I agree with that

Our underground system does not need a huge fix, and it definitely does not need any major additions, but a small increase would be nice, such as properly linking the Sinclair Centre and waterfront station to the Convention centres.

Last Sunday was the Cambridge show in the new convention centre, and to me it seemed so strange coming from skytrain that I can walk all the way to the food court across the street from Canada place, then i have to walk outside (it was raiing at the time) for 2 minutes, just to go back underground at Canada Place and walk to the new Convention centre via its underground link.

The other addition I would make is properly link Pacific Centre with the adjacent underground mall (the one LD is in, Its name always escapes me) and at the same time make a proper transfer between the C line and the E&M lines, also a link to Robson Square via the VCC station would help inject some life into the rinks underneath.

For me, that would be adequate for some time to come, and would only be adding a small amount of new space.

People here must remeber that during the summer, Vancouver is great along the surface, but we are far from a southern European or Californian city.

At the airport we record 166 days a year with precipitation, near downtown 169 days a year have precipitation.

[mr.x]

My idea for a 8-floor mall atrium Pacific Centre mall expansion was probably a bit too much, but something like 3-4 floors including the ground/basement level that links you to the rest of the mall would suffice.

Imagine the expansion using the renderings below. The main entrance located on Robson with a huge glass facade, and you'll also have smaller entrances on Granville and Howe:


http://www.blogto.com/city/2010/06/d..._market_north/



I don't think Vancouver City Centre mall could ever be fully integrated as a high-end mall like Pacific Centre. It has a pretty poor built form, including significant grade changes in the hall. But an improved connection would be most desired, especially as a connection between the Expo and Canada Lines...the current "connection" is embarassing to have to go through the Bay. I'm quite sure countless people have become lost in finding their way.

[red-paladin]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Last Sunday was the Cambridge show in the new convention centre, and to me it seemed so strange coming from skytrain that I can walk all the way to the food court across the street from Canada place, then i have to walk outside (it was raiing at the time) for 2 minutes, just to go back underground at Canada Place and walk to the new Convention centre via its underground link.

For the (seems like) 18th time, there is an underground connection between Waterfront Centre and Canada Place! You walk north past the Jugo Juice and the Chinese restaurant and you go through a tunnel with photos on the wall and there is an escalator to Canada Place.

[GeeCee]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

For the (seems like) 18th time, there is an underground connection between Waterfront Centre and Canada Place! You walk north past the Jugo Juice and the Chinese restaurant and you go through a tunnel with photos on the wall and there is an escalator to Canada Place.

Is it actually open now, though? As far as I know, that escalator has been shut down since the new convention centre opened through the Olympics.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by red-paladin

For the (seems like) 18th time, there is an underground connection between Waterfront Centre and Canada Place! You walk north past the Jugo Juice and the Chinese restaurant and you go through a tunnel with photos on the wall and there is an escalator to Canada Place.

Really? I did not know that, I will keep that in mind next time I go there and it is pissing rain (like last sunday).

I guess it is not very well marked though.

[GeeCee]

It isn't very well marked. It's sort of parallel to the hallway that leads to the SkyTrain platform, if that makes any sense.

[SpongeG]

there is signage that says convention centre etc - has been for years

that passage way has been great - it looks great now and some awesome old city of vancouver photos you can look at as you walk though - I always use it to navigate when i am down there - sinclair is also linked into waterfront centre

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

there is signage that says convention centre etc - has been for years

that passage way has been great - it looks great now and some awesome old city of vancouver photos you can look at as you walk though - I always use it to navigate when i am down there - sinclair is also linked into waterfront centre

....... so just link it up to Pacific Centre, and we're practically home free !!!!

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I agree with that

Our underground system does not need a huge fix, and it definitely does not need any major additions, but a small increase would be nice, such as properly linking the Sinclair Centre and waterfront station to the Convention centres.

Last Sunday was the Cambridge show in the new convention centre, and to me it seemed so strange coming from skytrain that I can walk all the way to the food court across the street from Canada place, then i have to walk outside (it was raiing at the time) for 2 minutes, just to go back underground at Canada Place and walk to the new Convention centre via its underground link.

The other addition I would make is properly link Pacific Centre with the adjacent underground mall (the one LD is in, Its name always escapes me) and at the same time make a proper transfer between the C line and the E&M lines, also a link to Robson Square via the VCC station would help inject some life into the rinks underneath.

For me, that would be adequate for some time to come, and would only be adding a small amount of new space.

People here must remeber that during the summer, Vancouver is great along the surface, but we are far from a southern European or Californian city.

At the airport we record 166 days a year with precipitation, near downtown 169 days a year have precipitation.

If you made it all the way to the food court in Waterfront Centre, you can walk past McDonalds, continue past Flying Wedge Pizza and walk into the pedestrian tunnel that leads to the original (east) convention centre. Beside the stairs/elevator coming out of this tunnel into the original convention centre lobby is the the stairs/elevator leading to the tunnel connecting the original (east) convention centre to the new (west) convention centre. With no need to unfurl the umbrella. The major problem with all these underground pedestrian areas is they were designed by the architects of the building for their purposes, and the connection to nearby buildings is a happy accident or an afterthought.


The second answer to your message is that there was an underground connector between Pacific Centre mall and Vancouver Centre mall, but this was taken out when the new Canada Line Vancouver City Centre (VCC) Station was built under Granville. Because the VCC Station is always open when the malls are open, this acts as a simple connector between the two malls. When these malls and the Bay are all open, there is an underground connection between the Canada line VCC station and the Expo/Millennium lines Granville Station. The downside is when the Bay or Vancouver Centre mall is closed, you need to go up to Granville Street to walk between the two skytrain stations.
It would have been easier if the VCC station was built a block further north at Dunsmuir so it could connect directly to the Granville Station, which was the plan when there was a 3rd Canada Line station on Granville @ Nelson (for the hospital traffic). However to save construction costs this Nelson station was deleted, so VCC had to move south to provide some coverage for the area south of Robson.


I noticed that during construction of the Canada Line Waterfront station, the NW corner of the mezzanine under Hastings is perfectly aligned with the Hastings/Granville corner of Sinclair centre, so with a bit of smart construction the food court of Sinclair centre can be connected to the Hastings mezzanine of the Canada Line Waterfront station.

With this connection from Sinclair Centre to the Canada Line in place, there would be a Skytrain connection between the shopping malls and office complexes along Granville St. The pedestrian underground walkways would still be a maze of passageways, but the connections between the buildings and Skytrain are walkable without being rained on.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

....... so just link it up to Pacific Centre, and we're practically home free !!!!

There already is a link -- Canada Line Waterfront Station to Canada Line Vancouver City Centre Station

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

If you made it all the way to the food court in Waterfront Centre, you can walk past McDonalds, continue past Flying Wedge Pizza and walk into the pedestrian tunnel that leads to the original (east) convention centre. Beside the stairs/elevator coming out of this tunnel into the original convention centre lobby is the the stairs/elevator leading to the tunnel connecting the original (east) convention centre to the new (west) convention centre. With no need to unfurl the umbrella. The major problem with all these underground pedestrian areas is they were designed by the architects of the building for their purposes, and the connection to nearby buildings is a happy accident or an afterthought.


The second answer to your message is that there was an underground connector between Pacific Centre mall and Vancouver Centre mall, but this was taken out when the new Canada Line Vancouver City Centre (VCC) Station was built under Granville. Because the VCC Station is always open when the malls are open, this acts as a simple connector between the two malls. When these malls and the Bay are all open, there is an underground connection between the Canada line VCC station and the Expo/Millennium lines Granville Station. The downside is when the Bay or Vancouver Centre mall is closed, you need to go up to Granville Street to walk between the two skytrain stations.
It would have been easier if the VCC station was built a block further north at Dunsmuir so it could connect directly to the Granville Station, which was the plan when there was a 3rd Canada Line station on Granville @ Nelson (for the hospital traffic). However to save construction costs this Nelson station was deleted, so VCC had to move south to provide some coverage for the area south of Robson.


I noticed that during construction of the Canada Line Waterfront station, the NW corner of the mezzanine under Hastings is perfectly aligned with the Hastings/Granville corner of Sinclair centre, so with a bit of smart construction the food court of Sinclair centre can be connected to the Hastings mezzanine of the Canada Line Waterfront station.

With this connection from Sinclair Centre to the Canada Line in place, there would be a Skytrain connection between the shopping malls and office complexes along Granville St. The pedestrian underground walkways would still be a maze of passageways, but the connections between the buildings and Skytrain are walkable without being rained on.

Yeah, I use that connection every time i transfer between the two stations when the mall is open.

You are right, most of the connections are there, they are just terribly laid out after thoughts / happy accidents with terrible way finding signage.

I think then what I would like to see is our underground connections "cleaned up" Such as a better, more direct connection between the VCC station and Granville station.

At the very least make a way finder marking along the ground between the two stations.

They do this all the time in Japan, if two stations are indirectly connected via an office tower's underground mall (or other underground feature) they connect the two stations with a yellow studded line (studded so blind people can follow them as well) through the malls and hallways.

[SpongeG]

i'd like to think we are not that stupid that we need nursemaiding to get around

[Metro-One]

Well not everyone uses the system everyday

there are many who would use that transfer only every now and then, not to mention tourists and other out of town individuals.

It is not nursemaiding, it is simply making the system user friendly.

If that is nursemainding, then we also don't need the station announcements on the trains, bus schedules at hubs, painted markings on the streets indicating cross walks, etc...

I guess you did not ride the Olympic line trial when it was operating, since there was a painted walkway taking one from the Olympic C line station to the tram station

Also, our population is going to become quite elderly in scale in the coming decades, it is best to make our system user friendly to the visually impaired now.