Tim Hortons Field | 40m | ? | Complete

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by highwater

Your concerns are legitimate up to this point, but seriously, poor transit? Like we couldn't possibly improve it in time for the games? Not to mention that the only real 'connections' to the airport or Confederation Park are by car, which means more land taken up with parking lots that will remain empty and useless most days of the year, and the built-in obsolescence of car dependence.



Surely this also includes the long term benefits to the city. We're going to be investing big bucks either way. Doesn't it make sense to invest it in something that has the best chance of improving the quality of life in this city after the games are over? There is no way you can argue that the airport or Confederation Park options will bring anything in the way of spin-off development. The age of the suburban stadium is over. The true cost of servicing and maintaining an auto-dependent stadium far from existing infrastructure, when we no longer have access to cheap energy, must be part of this 'scrutiny'.

Highwater, there are two separate and intertwining issues here. We can talk about what is best for the city, both now and in the future, but we also have to consider how much it is going to cost. Somewhere there is an optimal cost-benefit ratio; that is what many of these studies aim to find.

The city, province, and federal governments do not have an unlimited amount of money to spend. We have set budgets and they have already been pretty clearly defined. Any cost that is incurred through remediation of a preferred site or in preparation for construction, whether it is the PERFECT location or not, is inherently going to detract from the funds available for the venue itself. Hence there is a tradeoff; pick the best location, spend money on remediation and have a worse venue, OR, pick a different and comparable site that has fewer costs involved in preparation for construction and have a better venue overall.

I am not supporting a suburban stadium; however it seems pretty obvious to me that there should be a second urban option, comparable to the waterfront location, considered in case the costs associated with remediation of the waterfront location are too great. In saying that, it seems Bratina is the only one with his head screwed on tight. Speaking hypothetically, but this is a possibility, what happens when they find out remediation of the site is going to cost $50 million dollars and they haven't considered any other urban options? That's approximately a third of the budget! The city will realize it's way out of their budget to clean up the land, realize they haven't looked at any comparable options, and the likelihood of defaulting to the airport lands increases.

[realcity]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

How else are we going to ever clean up this massive piece of land? This is a perfect opportunity that shouldn't be missed.

Exactly Steel.

Do we leave it as a city-owned contaminated brownfield then? Maybe Queens Park will come and clean it for us and locate Google there.


Have tailgates at the Wilson and John parking oasis and then shuttle the drunk asses to the waterfront and back. The bus trip would make it even more eventful. A Tail gate special area could be tented off. I know guys that have gone to Bills games and never left the Tailgate party for the game.... I wasn't one of them. But the parties are that good.

[realcity]

okay lets just put 30,000 metal bleachers in the middle of a farm field and chalk off the area before each game.

[crhayes]

Originally Posted by realcity

Exactly Steel.
"It's a swamp land". But somehow a bazilion tons of CN rail cars aren't sinking into the swamp. EvenSo, so what if it needs 'pillars' whatever? Build them then.

You can't assume that because the CN yard is fine adjacent lands are automatically suitable for construction. This is why studies are conducted and decisions are made based upon the results.

Originally Posted by realcity

Do we leave it as a city-owned contaminated brownfield then? Maybe our fairy Queens Park godmother will come and clean it for us and locate Google there.

This is very disappointing coming from Bratina.

"It's a swamp land". But somehow a bazilion tons of CN rail cars aren't sinking into the swamp. EvenSo, so what if it needs 'pillars' whatever? Build them then.

Traffic access my ass. Run Shuttles. Mass transit. Ivor Wynne functions and that's even worse traffic access.

Have tailgates at the Wilson and John parking oasis and then shuttle the drunk asses to the waterfront and back. The bus trip would make it even more eventful. A Tail gate special area could be tented off. I know guys that have gone to Bills games and never left the Tailgate party for the game.... I wasn't one of them. But the parties are that good.

Realcity, you have good ideas but remember things are easier said than done. Anyone can blindly propose a myriad of ideas that would turn this city around in a heartbeat, but where is the money coming from? Money talks, bullshit walks. You are assuming that the city can come up with money at the drop of a hat to fund all of these proposals; it can't. If it could, don't you think we'd see a staggering amount of change throughout the city? In fact, if it had that kind of money how would the city have even become as derelict as it is?

[SteelTown]

Consider Burlington stadium: Young
Urges stadium planners to 'think outside the box'

November 13, 2009
John Kernaghan
The Hamilton Spectator
http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/671988

Ticat owner Bob Young says a Burlington site could be an option for the Pan Am Games stadium.

"I'd have no problem with Aldershot," he said yesterday in urging Pan Am planners to "think outside the box" on stadium locations.

"Maybe there is a site we haven't considered that will make the most economic sense."

Young added that "winning the Pan Am bid is going to almost look easy" compared to getting the facilities located and built.

The Aldershot site he identified is southwest of Waterdown Road and Hwy. 403, where GO and Via stations are located and a new highway interchange is planned.

The Pan Am stadium would host athletics for the 2015 Games, then become home to the Tiger-Cats if the club and other private sources can come up with $50 million to take the 15,000-seat facility to 25,000 seats.

Hamilton council has named the west harbour site near Bay and Barton streets as its preferred location, but the city will consider business cases for various sites, including Confederation Park, Hamilton airport and a downtown site.

"I'm OK with any site, as long as it makes sense economically over the long term," Young said.

Sources close to the Toronto 2015 bid claim a corporation was willing to come up with $25 million for naming rights for the stadium, but not at the west harbour site identified in the bid document.

While Young is still excited at Friday's Pan Am win and businessman David Braley, an early proponent of the bid, is "higher than I usually get," the reality of Games' development is a sobering backdrop.

Often, venues change location and even city from the bid plans to the final product. Vancouver 2010 is a prime example, with the skating oval originally slated for Burnaby ending up in Richmond.

That's a $180-million jewel that will become a huge sports excellence, recreation and wellness centre after the Games in February.

But if Hamilton fumbles this hand-off, Pan Am sources say two nearby municipalities would be eager to step up.

When the city's part in the bid was first pitched, Braley said if city council did not step up, the stadium would go elsewhere "so fast your head will spin."

He believes that threat is still there but the philanthropist is determined to keep Hamilton's piece of the pie and maybe even make it bigger.

Braley began working quietly on the concept of a regional Games four years ago and sat on the bid board as the federal representative.

[highwater]

Thanks, Bratina!

[Berklon]

They're going to screw this up, I just know it.

[realcity]

Originally Posted by realcity

Keep debating the location and it will be built in Burlington

I just feel like quoting myself....


They will screw this up

[realcity]

"Young added that "winning the Pan Am bid is going to almost look easy" compared to getting the facilities located and built."

[SteelTown]

We'll get the stadium one way or another. We already have the money and majority of councilors support the waterfront location. All of this location stuff is just wasted air to talk about. Worried about cost overrun? Bill it to the province, they are responsible for cost overrun of the 2015 Pan Am Games.

[FairHamilton]

That's Young's shot to say don't look to him to provide $$ for the extra seating.

[realcity]

good point.... "private sector $" yeah right.... just like our private sector can build a hotel downtown.

[crhayes]

This seems like it's just another example of the media spinning a story negatively in order to stir up controversy.

[hamiltonguy]

I don't thank we should blame Bob Bratina for suggesting we need to do due diligence regarding possible sites.

However, Bob Young on the other hand.

If we loose the cats to Burlington, then they've lost at least one fan.

And as soon as I can, the city will have lost yet another resident.

[bigguy1231]

In defense of Bob Young, that was only one of six locations that he mentioned to the writer in the interview. The writer chose not to mention the other five in the article.

Bob Young was on CHML this morning and basically said the articles writer was just stiring up the pot to sell newspapers. He was just happy to be getting a new stadium no matter where it was built.

[adam]

Hamilton is a great city and deserves a better newspaper. Someone needs to start "The Hamilton Downtowner" or similar...

[SteelTown]

Love today's MacKay cartoon on the Spec, Sam Merulla as the Grinch.

[hamiltonguy]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

In defense of Bob Young, that was only one of six locations that he mentioned to the writer in the interview. The writer chose not to mention the other five in the article.

Bob Young was on CHML this morning and basically said the articles writer was just stiring up the pot to sell newspapers. He was just happy to be getting a new stadium no matter where it was built.

Ah well then I reserve the for if and only if the ticats move.

[highwater]

Originally Posted by crhayes

Highwater, there are two separate and intertwining issues here. We can talk about what is best for the city, both now and in the future, but we also have to consider how much it is going to cost. Somewhere there is an optimal cost-benefit ratio; that is what many of these studies aim to find.

I realize that. My concern is that these studies will not take into consideration the real cost of a suburban stadium such as lost revenue from decreased economic spin offs, as well as long term unsustainability, and will only look at short term costs such as site remediation. I think my concerns are legitimate given this city's history.

Originally Posted by crhayes

I am not supporting a suburban stadium; however it seems pretty obvious to me that there should be a second urban option, comparable to the waterfront location, considered in case the costs associated with remediation of the waterfront location are too great. In saying that, it seems Bratina is the only one with his head screwed on tight.

This is why I was only critical of the Confederation Park and Airport options. I am fine with SJAM as a back up. Unfortunately Bratina clearly wants Confederation and the Airport to remain on the table, either of which would be a disaster for Hamilton.

[BCTed]

Originally Posted by Bob Bratina

There is no reason for runaway costs for the Pan Am games if we do our planning intelligently. The University of Akron just opened their new 30,000 seat stadium in September, built at a cost of $61 million dollars. I would be doing all residents of the City, not just those in Ward 2, if I did not demand the highest level of scrutiny in developing our Pan Am Games plan.

The Akron stadium is 100% bench seating ---- I would much prefer to avoid locking Hamilton into another 50 years of that.