Graffiti, Art or Vandalism?

[adam]

Landon's points are all valid. I had no problem reading his posts. Try a bit harder Matt.

I'll say it a different way: grafitti is a symptom of other problems. It isn't the cause of social problems, its an indication that they are there. Instead of spending $60k to try and speed up the daily commute on James and John, why don't we put the money into programs for youth living below the poverty level? If you don't like the tagging, try and understand the root of the problem to discover what needs to be done.

[flar]

There are certainly concrete actions that can be taken to reduce graffiti and tagging but ultimately you have to take into consideration why people are doing things like tagging in the first place. I think a lot of it comes down to a person feeling unnecessary, like society has no place for them. They sense that they are insignificant, which is true from the perspective of wider society, where few people in a mass society actually get the privilege of being significant to society in some way. One way that most people are able to cope with that aspect of reality is through the meaningfulness derived from their relationships in their immediate social life. Some people don't find this need satisfied in their immediate social lives. Out of all the people out there, there will always be some who choose to make their mark on the world by actually making a mark on the world.
They won't be satisfied with legal areas for graffiti, and punishing them probably only worsens their feeling of alienation. I don't know anything about the person behind "keenur" and what motivates him. I've never even seen him, but keenur is famous now and practically everyone in the city has seen the name.

[Landon]

..........

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by adam

Landon's points are all valid. I had no problem reading his posts. Try a bit harder Matt.

Landon's words are very hard to read.

Instead of spending $60k to try and speed up the daily commute on James and John, why don't we put the money into programs for youth living below the poverty level? If you don't like the tagging, try and understand the root of the problem to discover what needs to be done.

Who is spending $60k to "speed up the daily commute on James and John"? In what way? This is news to me. The last I heard, those two streets were converted to two-way.

How much more money must we give to those in poverty in this city? Why do you suggest money is the problem at all? How about "don't fucking scribble on buildings" be taught in school instead.

[FairHamilton]

The FTP and other anti-police tags which have recently become prevalent are especially disturbing, and should not be tolerated, period.

Bylaw Enforcement in Hamilton is no longer (if they ever did in the past) proactively enforcing the clean-up of graffiti. Going forward it will only be on a complaint basis. I guess, I have some complaining to do.........

http://thespec.com/article/468882

Other regulations, such as the anti-idling, pesticide and graffiti bylaws, will only be enforced on a complaint basis.

[adam]

I agree Flar, creating a community where people feel like they belong would help a lot. Community events can help people feel like they are a part of something. Those community events would take place in public spaces. Public spaces that are not exclusively dedicated to cars getting from one place to another as quickly as possible. Putting funds into events, festivals, useable spaces. Decreasing anonymity in society.

Also Millstone, if you want I can rewrite Landon's posts for you with spelling corrected. It would take a few seconds tops. Interested?

[flar]

I don't think it's possible to create a community where everyone feels like they belong, but we could do better at it.

[omro]

Found it. The "Broken Window" Policy under Guiliani was responsible for the cleaning up of New York, which was based on the following book. This is from Wikipedia:

Fixing Broken Windows: Restoring Order and Reducing Crime in Our Communities by George L. Kelling and Catherine Coles is a criminology and urban sociology book published in 1996, about crime and strategies to contain or eliminate it from urban neighborhoods.

The book is based on an article titled "Broken Windows" by James Q. Wilson and George L. Kelling, which appeared in the March 1982 edition of The Atlantic Monthly. The title comes from the following example:

"Consider a building with a few broken windows. If the windows are not repaired, the tendency is for vandals to break a few more windows. Eventually, they may even break into the building, and if it's unoccupied, perhaps become squatters or light fires inside.

Or consider a sidewalk. Some litter accumulates. Soon, more litter accumulates. Eventually, people even start leaving bags of trash from take-out restaurants there or breaking into cars."

A successful strategy for preventing vandalism, say the book's authors, is to fix the problems when they are small. Repair the broken windows within a short time, say, a day or a week, and the tendency is that vandals are much less likely to break more windows or do further damage. Clean up the sidewalk every day, and the tendency is for litter not to accumulate (or for the rate of littering to be much less). Problems do not escalate and thus respectable residents do not flee a neighborhood.

The theory thus makes two major claims: that further petty crime and low-level anti-social behavior will be deterred, and that major crime will, as a result, be prevented. Criticism of the theory has tended to focus only on the latter claim."

[Landon]

......

[Millstone]

But that can actualy be controlled from within the graffiti community.

WTF? "graffiti community"? Can we have a "jaywalking community" and "speeding community" along with a "crackhead community"?

[HackD]

What a crock...

The 'Graffiti Community' just needs to be given some "Theraputic Assistance."

If/When caught, as a mandatory part of the 'sentence', they should get to experience some Theraputic Aversion training of painting or white-washing/scraping/cleaning any and all (not just their own graffiti) deemed a problem. I figure 100 hrs, minimum should be adequate to sink home the message. Do it when you've got three or four of the young mis-understood youths punks lined up by the court system and you can have a supervised chain-gang of sorts.

Refuse to do it? Back to the Juvenile courts (ok, not much of a threat, granted) or a stay in the Barton crowbar motel for you.

I'm sure word will get around fast within the 'graffiti community' that there are far better things to do with their mis-spent time than tagging.

[adam]

So punishing taggers is going to solve the underlying problems then?

[worldwide]

Originally Posted by Millstone

WTF? "graffiti community"? Can we have a "jaywalking community" and "speeding community" along with a "crackhead community"?

not as absurd as you think.

this comment just shows how out of touch you are, old man

[omro]

Originally Posted by adam

So punishing taggers is going to solve the underlying problems then?

There needs to be a two pronged approach:

1. An effort needs to be made to deal with the underlying problems.

2. Taggers need to be punished for their unacceptable behaviour.

Perhaps, after being made to clean off their tags and others, part of their community service could be to assist the socially disadvantaged, thus 2. helps with 1.

[mic67]

Ok....lets say that you are within about 12 feet of someone tagging a building, what are you going to do?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now the same as above but they are tagging YOUR building - property, what would you do?


Mic67

[FairHamilton]

Originally Posted by Landon

I understand that people are worried about there stores being paint with graffiti,if there is a legal place to do it near by, But that can actualy be controlled from within the graffiti community.

an yea the spelling again i know.sorry

Unfortunately as with any community there are sub-communities which march to the beat of their own drummer.

My understanding is Keenur, and his like, are not held in high regard within the Graffiti community, as they exist in a sub-community, taggers, and have zero artistic quality to their work.

The graffiti community has zero influence and control over their (these taggers) actions.

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by worldwide

not as absurd as you think.

this comment just shows how out of touch you are, old man

No dude, it's idiotic, and you're out of touch from reality. Let's make a community for everything, a break-and-enter community, a carjacking community, bankrobbing community. Won't you people please think of the bankrobbers!

[Millstone]

Originally Posted by mic67

Ok....lets say that you are within about 12 feet of someone tagging a building, what are you going to do?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Now the same as above but they are tagging YOUR building - property, what would you do?


Mic67

Take pictures and call the police. There's no dealing with these wackjobs, so no confrontation.

Why?

[vid]

Originally Posted by Millstone

No dude, it's idiotic, and you're out of touch from reality. Let's make a community for everything, a break-and-enter community, a carjacking community, bankrobbing community. Won't you people please think of the bankrobbers!

You're confusing graffiti artists with taggers and equating all of them to criminals.

The "graffiti community" is a group of people who express themselves by coving blank walls in art. Taggers are a sub-community looked down on by them, much like society as a whole looks down on bankrobbers. Taggers are the bankrobbers of the graffiti community. The ones who stir shit to spoil the fun.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by mic67

Ok....lets say that you are within about 12 feet of someone tagging a building, what are you going to do?

I'd shout and tell him to stop, then call the cops.

Now the same as above but they are tagging YOUR building - property, what would you do?

I'd tie him up, castrate him and use his testicles as christmas ornaments.