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  #4081  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 2:55 PM
roger1818 roger1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Metro-One View Post
This of course is just one crossing of many.
Yes, I randomly picked one.

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What about 102nd and King George? One would need some pretty awkward crossing gates there.
That actually looks like one of the easier ones to gate to me. It does look terribly confusing for motorist though.

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If you need to start continually taking on ever increasing convoluted measures to make a system work, maybe the base proposal itself needs to be redesigned...
I certainly do agree that this design looks very convoluted. I was just trying to point out that there are solutions, but something is amuck with this design. LRT works best with a dedicated corridor that is relatively straight. This isn't anything near that. At a minimum they should be grade separating all this dipsy doolally track.

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And all these additions are just more aspects to fail. There are reasons why in recent years many of out major at grade crossings have been grade separated. Nothing creates a traffic jam better than a malfunctioning gate.
You can't really compare an freight rail crossing with an LRT crossing. It isn't just the gate failures that cause delays. Having a to wait for a long, slow, freight train to pass causes major problems. The LRT will block the road for less than 30 seconds, but you are right, we need to make is obvious a train is coming. I see the problems with LRT design similar to the problems with the design of many bike lanes and racetracks.
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  #4082  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 4:31 PM
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CanSpice CanSpice is offline
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Originally Posted by Envder View Post
I don't understand why they wouldn't just go down along in front of the mall then down old yale/100th ave and then turn on to king george. They could even ad a nice stop right in front of the mall which could be great for the mall itself.
Because that's all private propery and I'll bet dollars to donuts the landowners don't want that (they'd probably scream about losing parking or some other such nonsense).
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  #4083  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2017, 7:46 PM
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Migrant_Coconut Migrant_Coconut is offline
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Originally Posted by roger1818 View Post
I certainly do agree that this design looks very convoluted. I was just trying to point out that there are solutions, but something is amuck with this design. LRT works best with a dedicated corridor that is relatively straight. This isn't anything near that. At a minimum they should be grade separating all this dipsy doolally track.
That's the problem, isn't it? If Surrey Council was committed to making this LRT work, if they were willing to listen to feedback, if they were willing to spend a few more hundred million tunnelling or elevating the downtown-Guildford section? Well, it's not SkyTrain, but it'd work just fine - no problem here.

Instead, for fiscal/political/ideological reasons unknown, they've stubbornly insisted on at-grade all the way... even when it clearly doesn't work very well. Hence the backlash.
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  #4084  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 3:29 AM
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Reecemartin Reecemartin is offline
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I agree with the previous comments, often it seems for whatever reason that some people on this forum are more bent on being anti-LRT than actually making a good argument. Posting videos of random accidents is pointless, especially if you are suggesting the alternative is BRT.

In terms of this intersection, it clearly is complex however it’s a very difficult transition to make. If it is well signed and signalled (which no matter how much people on the forum want to act like it won’t be) then at least after a little getting used to the new arrangement drivers should be fine. If Surrey central is really to become a true downtown in the coming years and with the LRT the goal will be reducing private vehicle traffic anyways.
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  #4085  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 3:32 AM
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Reecemartin Reecemartin is offline
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Originally Posted by LeftCoaster View Post
As someone living in Toronto, just as many people think the streetcar is just as horrible as a bus.

It seems all neat and different but it's just as skinny and shitty as a bus, it just can't go around accidents.
All depends, comparing it to Toronto isn’t fair. Most of Toronto runs in mixed traffic which obviously this system isn’t (just look at the alignments). Torontonians are frighteningly car addicted and this is largely to blame for the poor measures taken to separate streetcars from traffic.

It’s noteworthy that lines like the 510 where there is total lane separation are actually fantastic with great frequency and quite good speeds.
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  #4086  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 4:26 AM
Sheba Sheba is online now
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Originally Posted by Reecemartin View Post
All depends, comparing it to Toronto isn’t fair. Most of Toronto runs in mixed traffic which obviously this system isn’t (just look at the alignments). Torontonians are frighteningly car addicted and this is largely to blame for the poor measures taken to separate streetcars from traffic.

It’s noteworthy that lines like the 510 where there is total lane separation are actually fantastic with great frequency and quite good speeds.
Actually comparing it to Toronto is fair. Up until quite recently Surrey has been using images that show their LRT running in mixed traffic. Even now they're showing it with what looks like a small curb on either side when what it needs to be successful at-grade rail is to be fenced off in some way.
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  #4087  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 7:12 AM
Colin4567 Colin4567 is offline
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Originally Posted by Reecemartin View Post
All depends, comparing it to Toronto isn’t fair. Most of Toronto runs in mixed traffic which obviously this system isn’t (just look at the alignments). Torontonians are frighteningly car addicted and this is largely to blame for the poor measures taken to separate streetcars from traffic.

It’s noteworthy that lines like the 510 where there is total lane separation are actually fantastic with great frequency and quite good speeds.
No. I took the 510 Spadina route and I have official TTC data that shows average speeds for 510 are about 10-14km/h. That's not "rapid" transit .
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  #4088  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 11:27 AM
cganuelas1995 cganuelas1995 is online now
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Originally Posted by Reecemartin View Post
I agree with the previous comments, often it seems for whatever reason that some people on this forum are more bent on being anti-LRT than actually making a good argument. Posting videos of random accidents is pointless, especially if you are suggesting the alternative is BRT.

In terms of this intersection, it clearly is complex however it’s a very difficult transition to make. If it is well signed and signalled (which no matter how much people on the forum want to act like it won’t be) then at least after a little getting used to the new arrangement drivers should be fine. If Surrey central is really to become a true downtown in the coming years and with the LRT the goal will be reducing private vehicle traffic anyways.
In the event of an accident, the line will shutdown or single track for a distance if they have crossovers on the line, which I doubt, while it's being cleared up and shit. You'd also more likely than not need a special crane, which who knows how long that could take or cost even, especially during rush hour.

With a bus, you can just detour around the accident like it never happened, as well as tow the bus out of the way.

It will definitely take considerably less time to get everything back to normal after an accident involving a bus than it would with LRT.
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  #4089  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 1:22 PM
Rico Rico is offline
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Originally Posted by Colin4567 View Post
No. I took the 510 Spadina route and I have official TTC data that shows average speeds for 510 are about 10-14km/h. That's not "rapid" transit .
Not to defend LRT too much but the 510s issues are too many stops and no signal priority/preemption. I actually have not been following closely enough but I worry the Surrey LRT will end up having only limited signal priority which will make it function like a 'streetcar'. The trams I took in switerland tended to have exclusive lanes in the suburbs, limited car interactions dowtown and very strong signal priority. If you don't have the political will to do that it is not worth doing. I cannot see effective signal priority being possible on that loopy intersection. That needs to be fixed.
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  #4090  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2017, 3:46 PM
Colin4567 Colin4567 is offline
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Originally Posted by Rico View Post
Not to defend LRT too much but the 510s issues are too many stops and no signal priority/preemption. I actually have not been following closely enough but I worry the Surrey LRT will end up having only limited signal priority which will make it function like a 'streetcar'. The trams I took in switerland tended to have exclusive lanes in the suburbs, limited car interactions dowtown and very strong signal priority. If you don't have the political will to do that it is not worth doing. I cannot see effective signal priority being possible on that loopy intersection. That needs to be fixed.
Actually in my email to one of the top staffers in the TTC I was told there is intersection priority, but my guess is that it's only on select places. I do agree with your comments about too frequent stop spacing and ensuring a good system is in place through intersection priority. Also, once the 510 streetcar goes underground near the waterfront it really picks up speed - grade separation is IMPORTANT!
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