PHILADELPHIA | 1300 Fairmount | 185 FT | 14 FLOORS

[GtownFriend]

Philly Curbed:
Developers to break ground this week on 14-story project behind Divine Lorraine

https://philly.curbed.com/2018/9/26/...1300-fairmount

[Londonee]

Wow, almost 500 units...seems like a lot?

[summersm343]

So glad to see North Broad finally booming. The area has so, so much potential. Can’t wait for the day that the stretch betweenness City Hall and Temple main is completely built out.

[jjv007]

Originally Posted by summersm343

So glad to see North Broad finally booming. The area has so, so much potential. Can’t wait for the day that the stretch betweenness City Hall and Temple main is completely built out.

In addition to just build-out, the urban fabric spreading that entire length is key. Going north of City Hall oftentimes has a gradually empty feel until you hit close to Temple's campus again.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by jjv007

In addition to just build-out, the urban fabric spreading that entire length is key. Going north of City Hall oftentimes has a gradually empty feel until you hit close to Temple's campus again.

Agreed. And inward and away from Broad Street needs to continue developing into functional neighborhoods that attract all types of residents (not just students with limited means) to support the businesses going in along the stretch. Development on Broad needs to be more than lipstick on a pig for the transformation of this street to really work.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Agreed. And inward and away from Broad Street needs to continue developing into functional neighborhoods that attract all types of residents (not just students with limited means) to support the businesses going in along the stretch. Development on Broad needs to be more than lipstick on a pig for the transformation of this street to really work.

West of Broad is on Fire! Francisville is building out like crazy. The area south of Temple between Girard and Cecil B west of Broad is also building up.

The biggest problem is EAST of Broad honestly. East of Broad from the convention center to Fairmount Ave needs work, but is still starting to build up and improve. The biggest problem area is Fairmount Ave to Cecil B East of Broad. I get this area is mostly stable, but it's extremely suburban. It looks like a neighborhood that belongs in Northeast Philly, not 1 mile from City Hall. This area needs to be a focus area for redevelopment. SEPTA should also consider a new regional rail station at Girard Ave.

[AbortedWalrus]

Glad they are finally breaking ground. Been waiting for this. I think it's really going to activate Ridge Ave.

[jjv007]

Originally Posted by summersm343

The biggest problem is EAST of Broad honestly. East of Broad from the convention center to Fairmount Ave needs work, but is still starting to build up and improve. The biggest problem area is Fairmount Ave to Cecil B East of Broad. I get this area is mostly stable, but it's extremely suburban. It looks like a neighborhood that belongs in Northeast Philly, not 1 mile from City Hall. This area needs to be a focus area for redevelopment. SEPTA should also consider a new regional rail station at Girard Ave.

I'm at Temple so Ik what you're saying about that suburban area. It's awful and really defies the generally dense residential pattern of most of the city's core sections.

[eixample]

Those suburban houses are FHA creations but aren't they privately owned? I think there is a deed restriction on them that would eventually expire and allow them to be sold to developers and torn down and replaced with denser "city" stock. Someone on here posted on that awhile back I think. The same situation applies I believe to some suburban houses FHA built in South Philly around 4th and 5th just south of Washington.

[McBane]

Re North Broad. A major part of the problem immediately north of City Hall is unfortunately something that can't be fixed. Whereas south of City Hall, you have a mix of residential, hotel, and commercial with a sprinkling of retail, north of CH is dominated by institutional uses that stifle street activity.

The first block features a barren plaza and two structures that, for all their beauty, do little to activate the street and often times act as a magnet for the homeless: the Masonic Temple and that Gothic style church.

The next block is okay with the Aloft Hotel but the McDonald's across the street (and the court next door) just gives that entire side of the street a shady vibe. PAFA is another nice building but doesn't attract many people and, as for the "main entrance" of the Convention Center - I don't think I've ever seen anyone go in or out of those doors.

As you continue north, the mix of buildings don't get much better: parking garages and parking lots, half empty office buildings, Hahnemenn Hospital and affiliated medical buildings, the Vine Street Expressway, Roman Catholic High, and more parking lots.

The Packard and the Hannover help the 300 block immensely, but that momentum is instantly killed by the empty Inquirer Building and the massive building across the street from it (which might also be empty?). The next block has that awful School District HQ and more parking lots. The State Office building will get a boost when that retail strip opens but as long as both the NE and NW corners of Spring Garden remain parking lots, that entire intersection will always feel desolate.

The DL and 1300 Fairmount are more likely to spur development to the west and connect with Fairmount than it will do much to spread development north/south along Broad; although I do expect individual projects here and there, it will be tough to connect them all and turn North Broad into a cohesive/active street. Even the much more successful South Broad Street lacks cohesion when you get south of about Pine Street.

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by eixample

Those suburban houses are FHA creations but aren't they privately owned? I think there is a deed restriction on them that would eventually expire and allow them to be sold to developers and torn down and replaced with denser "city" stock. Someone on here posted on that awhile back I think. The same situation applies I believe to some suburban houses FHA built in South Philly around 4th and 5th just south of Washington.

East of 12th is PHA, 12th to Broad is privately owned with deed restrictions running a couple more years. Though it's zoned rsa-5 so I wouldn't expect it to get too much denser, I think if someone bought two in a row, they'd be able to demo and build 3, so projects like that will happen in the 2020's.

[Scottydont]

Originally Posted by McBane

Re North Broad. A major part of the problem immediately north of City Hall is unfortunately something that can't be fixed.

The Packard and the Hannover help the 300 block immensely, but that momentum is instantly killed by the empty Inquirer Building and the massive building across the street from it (which might also be empty?). The next block has that awful School District HQ and more parking lots. The State Office building will get a boost when that retail strip opens but as long as both the NE and NW corners of Spring Garden remain parking lots, that entire intersection will always feel desolate.

That building isn't empty. Company called Sungard is in there (data center). Not sure if they use the entire space, but it's definitely not empty.

Overall your post is a bit doom and gloom. You get a few more developments like Hanover North Broad and the Philadelphia Community College expansion, and the area North of City Hall will do just fine.

[Insoluble]

Originally Posted by eixample

The same situation applies I believe to some suburban houses FHA built in South Philly around 4th and 5th just south of Washington.

Those are indeed privately owned. We know some folks who live there. Seems to be mostly middle class/upper middle class (depending on your def.) professionals with families. As much as I hate the built form of that neighborhood, I don't see it changing. There's a market for that sort of semi-suburban form but-still-in-the-city. I don't know if the Richard Allen Homes could end up in a similar predicament. The area south of Washington between 4 and 5 is at least relatively small (a couple blocks at most) and seems somewhat denser than the Richard Allen Homes.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Scottydont

That building isn't empty. Company called Sungard is in there (data center). Not sure if they use the entire space, but it's definitely not empty.

Overall your post is a bit doom and gloom. You get a few more developments like Hanover North Broad and the Philadelphia Community College expansion, and the area North of City Hall will do just fine.

Re Sunguard - how many people work in this data center? Isn't it just servers? Is there any ground floor retail? From what I can tell, this building is devoid of any human activity so the fact that it is occupied doesn't mean it's doing anything to enliven the street.

If you re-read my post, I'm just being realistic about Broad Street's trajectory based on factors that are almost impossible to change, e.g., buildings like the Masonic Temple, the hospital, or Convention Center will never be torn down to make way for the types of buildings that activate a street, like a mixed use tower with ground floor retail.

All I'm really saying is that projects like 1300 Fairmount will help spur development west (and possibly east) rather than north and south. It's not really that much different on South Broad in that regard.

[Scottydont]

Originally Posted by McBane

Re Sunguard - how many people work in this data center? Isn't it just servers? Is there any ground floor retail? From what I can tell, this building is devoid of any human activity so the fact that it is occupied doesn't mean it's doing anything to enliven the street.

TBH don't know head count, but servers require maintenance. At one point, my company restricted access to our servers stored at Sungard, and our IT folks had to go down to perform maintenance. Other times we used Sungards "helping hands" services and their employees would perform the maintenance. So there's definitely people going into the building.

Originally Posted by McBane

If you re-read my post, I'm just being realistic about Broad Street's trajectory based on factors that are almost impossible to change, e.g., buildings like the Masonic Temple, the hospital, or Convention Center will never be torn down to make way for the types of buildings that activate a street, like a mixed use tower with ground floor retail.

All I'm really saying is that projects like 1300 Fairmount will help spur development west (and possibly east) rather than north and south. It's not really that much different on South Broad in that regard.

Is an enlivened street the most important thing to you? I would say that's one small component of having a prosperous area. Projects are already completed or underway that will bring more people to North Broad (like 1601 Vine, Hanover North Broad, Philadelphia Community College expansion, Divine Lorraine rehab, E. Hart Stable) You have proposals that will further increase the population in the area (1300 Fairmount, Spring Garden St & N Broad St). I think more people in the area will spur development in the area despite the challenges you think there are.

[Aaamazarite]

Originally Posted by Scottydont

TBH don't know head count, but servers require maintenance. At one point, my company restricted access to our servers stored at Sungard, and our IT folks had to go down to perform maintenance. Other times we used Sungards "helping hands" services and their employees would perform the maintenance. So there's definitely people going into the building.

There's quite a few people working in there and they are actively seeking leases for both empty office space and the ground floor retail.

[PurpleWhiteOut]

Originally Posted by McBane

Re North Broad.
[...]
The Packard and the Hannover help the 300 block immensely, but that momentum is instantly killed by the empty Inquirer Building and the massive building across the street from it (which might also be empty?). The next block has that awful School District HQ and more parking lots. The State Office building will get a boost when that retail strip opens but as long as both the NE and NW corners of Spring Garden remain parking lots, that entire intersection will always feel desolate.

The DL and 1300 Fairmount are more likely to spur development to the west and connect with Fairmount than it will do much to spread development north/south along Broad; although I do expect individual projects here and there, it will be tough to connect them all and turn North Broad into a cohesive/active street. Even the much more successful South Broad Street lacks cohesion when you get south of about Pine Street.

Seems like a bit of agita over nothing. I think we should take this win in stride and not get too bogged down. The Inquirer Building is currently getting renovated to the police HQ (which I think will up the sense of security in the area), the Packard and Divine Lorraine are still pretty new, and there are proposed towers for BOTH parking lots on Spring Garden, which I think is really the only major gap for cohesion left.

To the west, Francisville is getting tons of new rowhome construction, and to the east Callowhill is seeing huge factory renovations, and the rail park has brought a lot of activity. The corridor has a lot of positive momentum and will be very different a few years from now. With all the breweries opening in Callowhill, lower north I think will be "cooler" than south broad.

[nemesisinphilly]

Originally Posted by eixample

The same situation applies I believe to some suburban houses FHA built in South Philly around 4th and 5th just south of Washington.

The deed restrictions on these have been expired for a few years now. They are very ugly but have parking and a large yard. They're pretty bland and boring on the inside as well. One just unbelievably sold for 540k

https://www.redfin.com/PA/Philadelph.../home/37992871

[eixample]

Originally Posted by nemesisinphilly

The deed restrictions on these have been expired for a few years now. They are very ugly but have parking and a large yard. They're pretty bland and boring on the inside as well. One just unbelievably sold for 540k

https://www.redfin.com/PA/Philadelph.../home/37992871

Incredible. Some of those lots are wide enough to fit three houses. I have to think at some point, maybe when those houses age another 10-15 years and get really dumpy, they'll get bought up by developers and split into multiple lots.

[McBane]

Originally Posted by PurpleWhiteOut

To the west, Francisville is getting tons of new rowhome construction, and to the east Callowhill is seeing huge factory renovations, and the rail park has brought a lot of activity. The corridor has a lot of positive momentum and will be very different a few years from now. With all the breweries opening in Callowhill, lower north I think will be "cooler" than south broad.

If you re-read my post, I said that a lot of what's occurring on N. Broad is projecting to the west and east, so I'm in agreement with you there. But my opinion is that the neighborhoods are transforming faster than Broad Street itself. Also, the most exciting projects on North Broad Street are happening north of the VSE as this area is more of a blank canvas; south of the VSE is more challenging due to existing building types (like the hospital and Convention Center) that are unlikely to be redeveloped into a more interesting use, although I do recognize there are develop-able properties along this stretch.