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  #41  
Old Posted Apr 4, 2009, 6:01 PM
ed21x ed21x is offline
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I think we have gone way too far here. Of course people would say that they are from Taiwan....but afterall, our ancestors are from China. You can't deny the fact that we are the same group of people expect that we are split apart due to various wars, cultural influences and the political division. You can't really be a "full" Taiwanese.

...
ok, this is getting waay too off topiic, and we can clearly see that you're trying to undermine and deny taiwanese identity, albeit covertly. Regardless, the difference between ethnicity and nationality is present most countries... much llike Razcal has said, an American can be of british decent and be 'full' american, and an african can be of dutch decent and be 'full' african. only in China would the CCP government advocate a pure 'han' race for nationalistic reasons, and of course you by association.
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  #42  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2009, 10:04 AM
edluva edluva is offline
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allen, my point was mainly to question the automatic tie people make between chinese culture and the chinese nation. while european "traditions" persist in the us, they are based mostly on reason and humanism - universal ideals, not cultural or religious ones. that concept is lost upon the taiwanese, or other people of chinese origin for that matter. it's also lost upon the japanese and koreans but they don't have the issues taiwan does.

so to razqal - this is where you're incorrect in associating taiwan with america. taiwan lacks the universal values that give the united states its purpose and identity. confucianism keeps the descendants of kmt from developing ideas about their own identity, and of taiwanese identity. everyone's a good kid with good face. what pious daughter will voluntarily endure the pain of rebelling the brainwashing of her grandparents, much less sufficiently question her own sense of individuality to get there? especially in a society where businesses and wealth are treated as family heirlooms. you have much more to lose when you're of a wealthy waishengren industrialist family. and then you can get an idea of how stuck-in-the-past chinese people can be. your comparison with japan and korea are moot because they don't have a monolithic political bully and an imposed civil war legacy to free themselves from. the "taiwanese" got more than they bargained for when kmt arrived...

in the end, taiwan is confused. and artistically, the nation is at a loss to express a clear message of itself.

Last edited by edluva; Apr 5, 2009 at 10:18 AM.
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  #43  
Old Posted Apr 5, 2009, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by ed21x View Post
ok, this is getting waay too off topiic, and we can clearly see that you're trying to undermine and deny taiwanese identity, albeit covertly. Regardless, the difference between ethnicity and nationality is present most countries... much llike Razcal has said, an American can be of british decent and be 'full' american, and an african can be of dutch decent and be 'full' african. only in China would the CCP government advocate a pure 'han' race for nationalistic reasons, and of course you by association.
Why would I deny Taiwanese identity when I am Taiwanese myself?
I understand that there are personal views to this question and I had enough of it. There are pros and cons to every situtation and you can't really say we are in the best one now.

I do not support either side but I am interested to see how the two countries go. Afterall, we are here to discuss this Water Cube project and there is simply no need to get too emotional about this. We've heard about this in ages and isn't this a topic that people tend to avoid?

I am Canadian with no accent
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  #44  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 9:06 AM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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Originally Posted by edluva View Post
allen, my point was mainly to question the automatic tie people make between chinese culture and the chinese nation. while european "traditions" persist in the us, they are based mostly on reason and humanism - universal ideals, not cultural or religious ones. that concept is lost upon the taiwanese, or other people of chinese origin for that matter. it's also lost upon the japanese and koreans but they don't have the issues taiwan does.

so to razqal - this is where you're incorrect in associating taiwan with america. taiwan lacks the universal values that give the united states its purpose and identity. confucianism keeps the descendants of kmt from developing ideas about their own identity, and of taiwanese identity. everyone's a good kid with good face. what pious daughter will voluntarily endure the pain of rebelling the brainwashing of her grandparents, much less sufficiently question her own sense of individuality to get there? especially in a society where businesses and wealth are treated as family heirlooms. you have much more to lose when you're of a wealthy waishengren industrialist family. and then you can get an idea of how stuck-in-the-past chinese people can be. your comparison with japan and korea are moot because they don't have a monolithic political bully and an imposed civil war legacy to free themselves from. the "taiwanese" got more than they bargained for when kmt arrived...

in the end, taiwan is confused. and artistically, the nation is at a loss to express a clear message of itself.
edluva, i feel like you've gone off on several tangents with your arguments. you're the one who brought up confucian culture. you say:

"taiwan's only hope lies in its youth's ability to write a more inclusive, more taiwanese chapter of history. but this would require the waishengren divorce themselves from their kmt legacy. this would require they find freedom from confucian values, freedom from filial piety, and ultimately freedom from nepotism."

but when i validly mention that japan and south korea, examples of other asian nation successes that are also confucian societies, you merely dismiss them because they dont have to deal with china. is your issue with china itself or chinese/confucian culture in general? if you just want to primarily criticize confucian culture than your point about japan/korea not being bullied by china is also a moot point. because i believe confucian values have played a significant and positive role in taiwan's development success much as it did with south korea, china and japan. chinese/confucian values isnt the problem but taiwan's lack of nationalism and/or struggles to develop a nationalist identity mainly due to china's suppression and pro-china taiwanese. taiwan can still remain a chinese society with confucian values and STILL BE TAIWAN. just like the u.s. can be a eurocentric country and still be the u.s. with her own identity and nationality. my argument is that taiwan lacks that nationalism at the level of south korea, china and the u.s. which makes her people want to have world class architecture, to build world class infrastructure like airports, to build world class industries and brand name companies, to have the best military, to establish world class olympic sporting teams, to be the best in every aspect. but as previously mentioned taiwan has had a turbulent history and is still a work in progress but she has come a long way. on a side note, back to your jibes at chinese/confucian culture, not everything about western culture and values is great you know. there are many things the west can learn from asian culture.

and there most definitely is a parallel between taiwan and the u.s. i was specifically referring to the establishment of both countries: that they are both lands that had existing native populations but resettled with the arrival of immigrants from abroad. whereas the u.s. had established their identity and nationality, taiwan is still in that process but for the fact that china remains the primary obstacle. but i'm not going to waste any more time discussing this in this thread. it's been totally off topic for a while now.

Last edited by Razqal; Apr 7, 2009 at 11:10 AM.
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  #45  
Old Posted Apr 7, 2009, 12:26 PM
edluva edluva is offline
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well, where should i start?

first of all, confucianism in taiwan is as pure and strong as it gets. japan and korea have traditions which are a bit removed from the direct influence of chinese confucianism as they have their own distinct traditions and characteristics which are only influenced by confucian histories. they are not in themselves confucian societies. you should admit yourself to how obviously different chinese and japanese societies function all the way to the family level - to imply japan is confucian in the same breadth as taiwan or china are is simply dishonest.

secondly, japan is bullied, but it's not threatened for its existence. nor is korea. taiwan is. furthermore, those countries have forged distinct cultural and national identities going back thousands of years, while taiwan is clearly a variation (or several variations) of chinese, and you fail to acknowledge these glaring differences.

thirdly, you fail to demonstrate an equivalence between taiwan vis a vis china, and the US vis a vis europe. i get that taiwan is confucian. what of the US and europe? what do you mean by "eurocentric"? and how exactly is the US "eurocentric", and specificially how is eurocentrism, assuming the US is indeed eurocentric, an effect equal to confucianism in taiwan? you still haven't made a convincing analogy out of these pairs.

last but not least - while i wish taiwan the level of political and cultural independence enjoyed by japan or korea, i do not wholesale endorse the kind of ethnonationalism which occurs on the latter two. but for taiwan's survival, anything is better than nothing right now. the problem now is, how to we get the sort of nationalism that japan has? what do you expect taiwan to root its nationalism around? the idea of a pan-taiwanese ethnicity, race, philosophy, etc etc?

in the end though, i do agree that ultimately we need to forge some sort of nationalism in taiwan. so again, my argument to begin with is, how? when your culture is so similar to china's and you also have a group of people (waishengren) directly tied to china by money, politics, and worst of all, the familial nepotism of confucianism, holding the "nation" politically and economically hostage, why would you expect nationalism to just develop out of thin air? you're asking water to run uphill. and water doesn't run uphill.

Last edited by edluva; Apr 7, 2009 at 12:44 PM.
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  #46  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 12:27 AM
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Ok this is enough. End of this foolish discussion and let's see what's next for Taipei.

"I do not agree with a word you say but I will defend to death your right to say it"............just keep this quote in mind

Happy everyone?
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  #47  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 1:50 AM
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williamchung taiwan williamchung taiwan is offline
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I've too much this kind of arugment already with Chinese people, what is our identiy, culture and nationalist? Actually, I really do not care about this!
Like other young generation in Taiwan, we say we are Taiwanese. It's very clear for us to know that we are Taiwanese. Unlike, old generation, they still think about their identity. But for many of us, we don't care about this thing.
No matter, other people say, it already become biggest common value for Taiwanese community.
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  #48  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 3:18 AM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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Originally Posted by Allen View Post
Ok this is enough. End of this foolish discussion and let's see what's next for Taipei.

"I do not agree with a word you say but I will defend to death your right to say it"............just keep this quote in mind

Happy everyone?
yes, i totally agree with you! i do not agree with a word she says at all!!!

Last edited by Razqal; Apr 8, 2009 at 4:04 AM.
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  #49  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 4:03 AM
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Originally Posted by williamchung taiwan View Post
I've too much this kind of arugment already with Chinese people, what is our identiy, culture and nationalist? Actually, I really do not care about this!
Like other young generation in Taiwan, we say we are Taiwanese. It's very clear for us to know that we are Taiwanese. Unlike, old generation, they still think about their identity. But for many of us, we don't care about this thing.
No matter, other people say, it already become biggest common value for Taiwanese community.
Exactly. We leave the argument to the older generations and it shouldn't be passed on

Anyways...I'm off again
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  #50  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 4:47 AM
edluva edluva is offline
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Originally Posted by Razqal View Post
yes, i totally agree with you! i do not agree with a word she says at all!!!
i'm actually a guy. and you can disagree, that's fine with me. but keep in mind you haven't defended your argument at all.

as for taiwan moving on and leaving things to older generations, we'll see how capable they'll be of doing this with those business and family ties to mainland china.
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  #51  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 7:47 AM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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Originally Posted by edluva View Post
i'm actually a guy. and you can disagree, that's fine with me. but keep in mind you haven't defended your argument at all.

as for taiwan moving on and leaving things to older generations, we'll see how capable they'll be of doing this with those business and family ties to mainland china.

i've stated my reasons. but i know you wont be satisfied with them until i agree with you. so it's really futile to keep going on endlessly. you havent defended some of your arguments because i wasnt satisfied with them either. so lets just move on.

btw, who's that girl in the photo then?

Last edited by Razqal; Apr 8, 2009 at 8:01 AM.
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  #52  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 8:05 AM
edluva edluva is offline
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i've stated my reasons. but i know you wont be satisfied with them until i agree with you. so it's really futile to keep going on endlessly. you havent defended some of your arguments because i wasnt satisfied with them either. so lets just move on.

btw, who's that girl in the photo then?
what have i not defended? i addressed all of your concerns 2 posts ago and shot down all your points....it's you who needs to reply.

the girl is chan marshall, a singer-songwriter.
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  #53  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 9:37 AM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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what have i not defended? i addressed all of your concerns 2 posts ago and shot down all your points....it's you who needs to reply.

the girl is chan marshall, a singer-songwriter.
you think you shot down all my points. that doesnt mean everyone agrees with them. reasoning is subjective. might i add that you come across as extremely self-righteous and biased against asians/chinese.
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  #54  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 10:47 AM
edluva edluva is offline
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wow, you're pulling an ad-hominem attack yet you still refuse to tackle BUT ONE of my points directly.

"reasoning is subjective". haha, good one. so you still refuse to reply to anything i said. i take it you have nothing interesting to say?

great work razqal


allow me to repost my reply here so that you can have another chance to defend yourself (instead of hiding behind personal attacks)

Quote:
well, where should i start?

first of all, confucianism in taiwan is as pure and strong as it gets. japan and korea have traditions which are a bit removed from the direct influence of chinese confucianism as they have their own distinct traditions and characteristics which are only influenced by confucian histories. they are not in themselves confucian societies. you should admit yourself to how obviously different chinese and japanese societies function all the way to the family level - to imply japan is confucian in the same breadth as taiwan or china are is simply dishonest.

secondly, japan is bullied, but it's not threatened for its existence. nor is korea. taiwan is. furthermore, those countries have forged distinct cultural and national identities going back thousands of years, while taiwan is clearly a variation (or several variations) of chinese, and you fail to acknowledge these glaring differences.

thirdly, you fail to demonstrate an equivalence between taiwan vis a vis china, and the US vis a vis europe. i get that taiwan is confucian. what of the US and europe? what do you mean by "eurocentric"? and how exactly is the US "eurocentric", and specificially how is eurocentrism, assuming the US is indeed eurocentric, an effect equal to confucianism in taiwan? you still haven't made a convincing analogy out of these pairs.

last but not least - while i wish taiwan the level of political and cultural independence enjoyed by japan or korea, i do not wholesale endorse the kind of ethnonationalism which occurs on the latter two. but for taiwan's survival, anything is better than nothing right now. the problem now is, how to we get the sort of nationalism that japan has? what do you expect taiwan to root its nationalism around? the idea of a pan-taiwanese ethnicity, race, philosophy, etc etc?

in the end though, i do agree that ultimately we need to forge some sort of nationalism in taiwan. so again, my argument to begin with is, how? when your culture is so similar to china's and you also have a group of people (waishengren) directly tied to china by money, politics, and worst of all, the familial nepotism of confucianism, holding the "nation" politically and economically hostage, why would you expect nationalism to just develop out of thin air? you're asking water to run uphill. and water doesn't run uphill.
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  #55  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 1:51 PM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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i made my points already but you keep coming back with counterpoints and accuse me of not having made my points. you're clearly the argumentative type so i really have no interest in going with circles with you. i have better things to do than to waste time arguing with some pseudo intellectual in some random architectural forum about things not even related to architecture. i'm familiar with your posts throughout time so i know better. zai jian.

Last edited by Razqal; Apr 8, 2009 at 2:45 PM.
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  #56  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 3:09 PM
edluva edluva is offline
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^where are your counterpoints? i'm still waiting for them

don't play this game of running away just because you have no valid argument. i haven't been argumentative until you decided to stop answering my replies and instead started to spend your energy issuing personal attacks and irrelevant statements.

when someone starts spending more energy to trying to defame the other person instead of simply responding to the debate, you know they've essentially lost the argument.
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  #57  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 3:30 PM
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Oh God.....
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  #58  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 5:14 PM
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in the end though, i do agree that ultimately we need to forge some sort of nationalism in taiwan. so again, my argument to begin with is, how? when your culture is so similar to china's and you also have a group of people (waishengren) directly tied to china by money, politics, and worst of all, the familial nepotism of confucianism, holding the "nation" politically and economically hostage, why would you expect nationalism to just develop out of thin air? you're asking water to run uphill. and water doesn't run uphill.
This is really the only point you've made throughout all those paragraphs, so I'll address this. Basically, The generation you refer to with "familial nepotism of confucianism," "political ties to china," etc. is dyeing off. Like it or not, in 1-2 generation, there will be almost nobody left in Taiwan who came from China during the revolution. What you will see is the current generation taking charge in our government.

Now go to any college/university/person under the age of 30 in Taiwan and tell me how much of this "chinese familial nepotism of confucianism" exists, because I certainly don't see it. Tell me how "confused they are about being Taiwanese" they are, because I certainly don't see it. Taiwan is evolving extremely rapidly, and nearly everything you speak of will die off, literally.

And of course... Taiwanese culture has evolved quite a bit, and will only become more distinct as time goes on. We can give reasons for why it clings to the past, but everyone knows that it has developed its own identity in recent years. And this identity can be gathered from your local boba shop, karaoke, tv drama, music, etc... what the young taiwanese kids do nowadays while old people like you insist that there is nothing
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  #59  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 10:58 PM
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williamchung taiwan williamchung taiwan is offline
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Maybe, I change the tile of this thread!
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  #60  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2009, 11:19 PM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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see, she always has to get the last word!! edluva, are you even chinese/taiwanese??
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