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  #61  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 12:13 AM
edluva edluva is offline
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wow, razqal, i've given you so many chances to defend my earnest and valid replies to your points: let me remind you for the second time what i'm waiting for you to respond to....

1. taiwanese confucianism is pure. japan is not "confucian" as it has a clearly different culture which fuses local religion and tradition (shinto, samurai ethic, etc). basically japanese culture is clearly very different from chinese (Taiwanese) so your comparison to japan is moot

2. you have yet to demonstrate that taiwan's relationship with china is equivalent to the US's with Europe. Can you tell me exactly why you believe the US is "eurocentric"? It's a very simple question, razqal...

3. Taiwan is threated for its very existence. Japan and Korea are not. Do you not think this is an important difference between japan and taiwan?


now, these are valid replies, are they not? and so far, you have spent all of your energy trying to avoid replying to them. instead, you keep on attempting ad-hominems - trying to discredit the person instead of his argument. you ask me whether i am chinese/taiwanese has nothing to do with the point, does it? obviously you are trying to weasel your way out if this discussion by changing the topic

can you reply to even a single one of the above points?

like i said, you are spending plenty of energy posting irrelevant responses, yet you wont spend an ounce of energy to reply to a single retort. i find that very funny and ironic
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  #62  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 5:55 AM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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it's completely relevant if you are chinese/taiwanese because you are representing yourself as some kind of expert on chinese/taiwanese/confucian culture. since you weaseled your way out of answering the question i'm assuming you're not even chinese/taiwanese. hence your credibility went down a few notches in my book.

you are really wasting my time. but here you go:

1.) you say: "basically japanese culture is clearly very different from chinese (Taiwanese) so your comparison to japan is moot"

where did i even say japan and taiwan were the same? that whole point of yours is moot.

ok i'll give you this: perhaps i shouldnt have said japan is a confucius society, BUT neither has confucianism not played a significant role in japanese society as you seem to proffer. i should have said this: "japan, korea and taiwan are all countries influenced by confucianism". this was a response to your original comment criticizing confucian values in taiwan which really started this whole entire debacle. confucianism has definitely been a part of japanese history and culture and influences its society even to this day. thanks to the internet/google i've found experts out there that can do the work for me and save me lots of time:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism

"Cultures and countries strongly influenced by Confucianism include China, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam, as well as various territories settled predominantly by Chinese people, including Singapore and Taiwan.''

"Confucius was a sage and social philosopher of China whose teachings have for many centuries influenced East Asia, including China, Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and Vietnam. "


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/japanese-confucian/

"Understood most comprehensively, the importance of Confucianism in Japanese history is undeniable: as in China and Korea, Confucian philosophizing in Japan came to define one major if not dominant layer of the early-modern and modern worldviews. "


http://www.onmarkproductions.com/htm...m.html#josetsu

"In Japan, as earlier in China, Confucian ideals played a major role in the development of ethical and political philosophies. This was especially so during Japan's formative years (+ 6th to 9th centuries), when Confucianism and Buddhism were introduced to Japan from Korea and China."



2. you misread my comments. i compared taiwan's and the u.s.'s founding as countries similar, not the way that you put it. go back and reread it and dont misquote me. this is why i dont bother with your comments anymore. waste of time.

how is the u.s. eurocentric? how about a lifetime of living in this country surrounded by european descendants (the 2000 u.s. census said 75% of the u.s. population are european descendants), speaking/learning english, spanish, french, latin, learning christianity, learning european literature/history/culture, etc. (very little on other world history/cultures), celebrating holidays originated in europe, the immense value the u.s. govt places on foreign relations with europe, and on and on? is this a joke question? no matter, i'm not giving any more time to it.



3. you clearly pulled this out of context and mixing together different topics - AGAIN. i was SPECIFICALLY referring to all 3 countries being influence by confucianism - that's it.

you said: "taiwan's only hope lies in its youth's ability to write a more inclusive, more taiwanese chapter of history. but this would require the waishengren divorce themselves from their kmt legacy. this would require they find freedom from confucian values, freedom from filial piety, and ultimately freedom from nepotism."

i said: "plus what does those chinese values have anything to do with designing better architecture or building world class name brands or nationalism? china, south korea and japan are all confucian societies that practice filial piety and nepotism. that hasnt hindered their economic development and nationalistic sentiment. if anything maybe it's a benefit. it's having these confucian values which emphasizes education and dictates studying/working hard and obedience and respect for elders that has helped to establish the foundation for the success of these asian nations."


i dont see why taiwan has to divorce itself of it's chinese/confucian culture in order to develop its own identity and nationalism. just because china threatens her militarily does not mean the taiwanese have to totally eradicate their chinese culture and evolutionize into something completely different, whatever that might be. regardless, taiwan has been developing its own national identity for decades now and been doing a pretty good job. as someone mentioned old generations are dying and new generations of taiwanese think of themselves as taiwanese, not chinese. yet the cultural values and traditions they practice are still very much chinese. singapore also has a dominant chinese culture yet singaporeans feel they are completely separate from china. why should taiwan be any different? just because china threatens her? no i dont think so, not a good enough reason.



AND WITH THAT, I AM NOT GOING TO WASTE TIME TALKING ABOUT THIS ANYMORE!! BACK TO COMMENTING ABOUT ARCHITECTURE.

Last edited by Razqal; Apr 9, 2009 at 6:58 AM.
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  #63  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 6:05 AM
ed21x ed21x is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edluva View Post
wow, razqal, i've given you so many chances to defend my earnest and valid replies to your points: let me remind you for the second time what i'm waiting for you to respond to....

1. taiwanese confucianism is pure. japan is not "confucian" as it has a clearly different culture which fuses local religion and tradition (shinto, samurai ethic, etc). basically japanese culture is clearly very different from chinese (Taiwanese) so your comparison to japan is moot

2. you have yet to demonstrate that taiwan's relationship with china is equivalent to the US's with Europe. Can you tell me exactly why you believe the US is "eurocentric"? It's a very simple question, razqal...

3. Taiwan is threated for its very existence. Japan and Korea are not. Do you not think this is an important difference between japan and taiwan?


now, these are valid replies, are they not? and so far, you have spent all of your energy trying to avoid replying to them. instead, you keep on attempting ad-hominems - trying to discredit the person instead of his argument. you ask me whether i am chinese/taiwanese has nothing to do with the point, does it? obviously you are trying to weasel your way out if this discussion by changing the topic

can you reply to even a single one of the above points?

like i said, you are spending plenty of energy posting irrelevant responses, yet you wont spend an ounce of energy to reply to a single retort. i find that very funny and ironic
edluva, you make three distinct points, but the relevance of those points to the discussion are somewhat dodgy. I'll try to reply to them, regardless.

1- I already covered this in my last post. But to add a bit more, Taiwanese culture is Chinese in origin, and still fairly young, but nobody will deny that a unique cultural identity is springing up on our little green island. And this is evident from the emerging generation, not the old, annoying politicians you speak of.

2- Taiwan's relation to China is exactly like America's relation to britain... 150 years ago. At the immediate time following the American revolution, there was still plenty of people who prided themselves on being british/irish/scottish/german in the United States (ethnocentric nationality), and many of them still hadn't accepted that American was truely American. Regardless, today we look back and point to the end of the Revolution as the beginning of America as a nation.

3. I don't see much relevance for this post, but Taiwan being threatened for its existence does not hamper it's nationalism, but probably encourages it to some degree. While people talk of political isolation, people tend to overlook the freedom that Taiwan has on the world stage that was never given to China- mainly the freedom our Taiwanese passport grants us to everywhere in the world (go to any foreign country and you are bound to see more taiwanese travelling freely than chinese), lack of restrictions on economic ties (good business ties, import/export), and tech transfer (did wonders for our hi-tech industry). Given one or the other, I think I've benefited far more from being Taiwanese than if I were Chinese, and this despite our current political "isolation," which is mainly lip service rather than action
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  #64  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 6:32 AM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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Originally Posted by ed21x View Post
edluva, you make three distinct points, but the relevance of those points to the discussion are somewhat dodgy. I'll try to reply to them, regardless.
thank you, ed21x. i couldnt have been more concise and straight to the point as that one statement!!

Last edited by Razqal; Apr 9, 2009 at 6:51 AM.
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  #65  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 8:41 AM
edluva edluva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razqal View Post
it's completely relevant if you are chinese/taiwanese because you are representing yourself as some kind of expert on chinese/taiwanese/confucian culture. since you weaseled your way out of answering the question i'm assuming you're not even chinese/taiwanese. hence your credibility went down a few notches in my book.
if you cared an ounce for objectivity, you wouldn't care who was making an argument so long as that argument were valid. apparently you and i differ on this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razqal
you are really wasting my time. but here you go:

1.) you say: "basically japanese culture is clearly very different from chinese (Taiwanese) so your comparison to japan is moot"

where did i even say japan and taiwan were the same? that whole point of yours is moot.


ok i'll give you this: perhaps i shouldnt have said japan is a confucius society, BUT neither has confucianism not played a significant role in japanese society as you seem to proffer. i should have said this: "japan, korea and taiwan are all countries influenced by confucianism". this was a response to your original comment criticizing confucian values in taiwan which really started this whole entire debacle. confucianism has definitely been a part of japanese history and culture and influences its society even to this day. thanks to the internet/google i've found experts out there that can do the work for me and save me lots of time:
^^you seem to be debating with yourself. i know confucian history probably better than you do. i fully appreciate the influence it's had on non-chinese societies like japan, korea, or vietnam, so you're preaching to the choir here.

i was not implying that you equated confucianism in taiwan with that of japan. i was discrediting your use of japan's success to suggest that taiwan can do the same. obviously, i'm saying that japan is 1. not confucian but rather, confucian influenced and 2. in a completely different situation than taiwan...independence, culture, tradition, values are all different from china - not so with taiwan. apparently you didn't understand that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by razqal
2. you misread my comments. i compared taiwan's and the u.s.'s founding as countries similar, not the way that you put it. go back and reread it and dont misquote me. this is why i dont bother with your comments anymore. waste of time.

how is the u.s. eurocentric? how about a lifetime of living in this country surrounded by european descendants (the 2000 u.s. census said 75% of the u.s. population are european descendants), speaking/learning english, spanish, french, latin, learning christianity, learning european literature/history/culture, etc. (very little on other world history/cultures), celebrating holidays originated in europe, the immense value the u.s. govt places on foreign relations with europe, and on and on? is this a joke question? no matter, i'm not giving any more time to it.
^demonstrate how speaking english makes a people "eurocentric". i speak fluent mandarin - does that then make me "sinocentric" or confucian? i also speak pretty darn good spanish - does that make me "hispanocentric" too?

demonstrate how being of caucasian descent makes america "eurocentric". i am yellow skinned. does that then make me "sinocentric"? i have a dark tan, does that make me partial "afrocentric"?

demonstrate how "learning christianity" makes america "eurocentric". first of all, christianity is an abrahamic religion - it's origins are middle eastern. does that then make the US "abrahamocentric"? or "israelocentric"?

you have given a bullshit argument about holidays? what, halloween? trick or treating is a chiefly american invention, i bet you didn't know that did you? halloween has pagan origins - origins which were denounced by the vatican over two millenia. bet you didn't know that either did you? christmas? that's a christian holiday last time i checked. but that's all besides the point. the main question is....do any of these holidays permeate our the lives of americans the way confucianism does in taiwan? does christmas influence the way i think, influence my relationships with my parents? my grandparents? my close friends? my ancestors? my country? how i view my responsibility to the government and society at large? and do they do this 365 days a year? lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razqal
3. you clearly pulled this out of context and mixing together different topics - AGAIN. i was SPECIFICALLY referring to all 3 countries being influence by confucianism - that's it.

you said: "taiwan's only hope lies in its youth's ability to write a more inclusive, more taiwanese chapter of history. but this would require the waishengren divorce themselves from their kmt legacy. this would require they find freedom from confucian values, freedom from filial piety, and ultimately freedom from nepotism."

i said: "plus what does those chinese values have anything to do with designing better architecture or building world class name brands or nationalism? china, south korea and japan are all confucian societies that practice filial piety and nepotism. that hasnt hindered their economic development and nationalistic sentiment. if anything maybe it's a benefit. it's having these confucian values which emphasizes education and dictates studying/working hard and obedience and respect for elders that has helped to establish the foundation for the success of these asian nations."
as i've said before. japan is not a "confucian society". it was heavily influenced by confucianism. you are actually contradicting yourself as you acceded that point yourself above...

secondly, where have i made a statement about economic development? taiwan's an economic miracle so far as i'm concerned. i'm talking about the lack of nationalism in taiwan. the lack of an identity.

if you ask any waishengren's kid who they're supporting ("kids" being a loose term for young people born and educated in taiwan - teenaged to say, 40 yrs old) you're going to run into the same hard-headed support for the kmt that their parents and grandparents spoonfed them with, to a rate of about 99 percent loyalty. taiwanese people aren't individualists - they don't think for themselves. nor do other asians. there is a herd mentality among asian societies. this herd mentality is killing free thought. it is killing hope for a functional democracy.

i guarantee you, just because an american is borne of conservative parents, you're not going to see a 99 percent ideological concordance from generation to generation. you mean to tell me you don't think this to be peculiar, in a "democracy" such as taiwan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razqal
i dont see why taiwan has to divorce itself of it's chinese/confucian culture in order to develop its own identity and nationalism. just because china threatens her militarily does not mean the taiwanese have to totally eradicate their chinese culture and evolutionize into something completely different, whatever that might be. regardless, taiwan has been developing its own national identity for decades now and been doing a pretty good job. as someone mentioned old generations are dying and new generations of taiwanese think of themselves as taiwanese, not chinese. yet the cultural values and traditions they practice are still very much chinese. singapore also has a dominant chinese culture yet singaporeans feel they are completely separate from china. why should taiwan be any different? just because china threatens her? no i dont think so, not a good enough reason.
^good, now you're actually responding to my rebuttal. see, razqal, it's not so bad to debate eye to eye is it? you don't need to hide behind ed21x - you, as an individual, are responsible for your own words and actions (i know it's hard for you to understand that, being a confucianist and all ). hiding behind ed21x or other people won't help your image or credibility - you're dealing with an avowed american now (me), not a chinese. i don't take who you surround yourself by as proxy for your personal views

i'm not saying taiwan needs to completely divorce itself from confucianism. although i'd prefer that. i'm saying taiwan needs to become more secular just like a country like iran or japan needs to become more secular. democracy only functions well if its electorate can free itself from cultural burdens that keep special interest (nepotisms) from corrupting the government.

let me ask you - how does one acheive a separation of powers if the supreme court's judge is in a business partnership with the vice prez of the executive? what if the executive were indicted for money laundering? would the supreme court work for the interest of justice? this is just an example, and i know the US isn't perfect by any means, but this phenomenon is much more of a problem in taiwan. especially where KMT leaders have business and political bedfellows in the PRC. you see where i'm taking this?

you act like this phenomenon will simply disappear in one generation? don't be so naive. those politicans have kids too you know. you think those kids, being the terrific confucianists that you love, are going to rebel against their ancestors and have a sudden attack of conscience? it's hard enough for the american privileged class to do this, you think "guai guai" KMT kids will do the same?

japan is another example where nepotism runs rampant. but the family isn't as confucian in japan - will you agree? japanese families are pretty nuclear - mom, dad, son, daughter. where nepotism comes into japanese society is with respect to face. that's where japanese and taiwanese share a common confucian virtue but that's also where similarities end. so japan manifests in a very different way (albeit with its own problems for democracy), because in addition to having some confucian traits, japanese have values of their own. i can talk lengths about japan's problems, but that's even further off topic.

and again, japan isn't trying to tear itself from china. taiwan is. japan has very strong nationalism. it's got a very strong identity. and a very distinct culture and tradition. all things that taiwan does not. so i am merely discrediting your comparison with japan or korea - the success of the latter two do not help your case. they are different to begin with, their circumstances are very very different from taiwans.

can you deny any of what i've said? without hiding your face behind others in order to appear strong?

Last edited by edluva; Apr 10, 2009 at 10:40 AM.
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  #66  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 10:28 AM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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edluva, i am not hiding behind others. we've had several back and forths between us before anyone even interjected so dont give me that bull accusation. in fact, if you read what others wrote they are agreeing with me. so i was merely pointing that out when i quoted them. i noticed you havent even responded to them. do you feel as if we are ganging up on you? so its apparent that i am not the only one who find some of your arguments inarticulate and your "points" irrelevant to the topics as discussed.

i'm not going to waste any more of my time on this matter. say whatever you want. enjoy.
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  #67  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 11:54 AM
edluva edluva is offline
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Originally Posted by Razqal View Post
edluva, i am not hiding behind others. we've had several back and forths between us before anyone even interjected so dont give me that bull accusation. in fact, if you read what others wrote they are agreeing with me. so i was merely pointing that out when i quoted them. i noticed you havent even responded to them. do you feel as if we are ganging up on you? so its apparent that i am not the only one who find some of your arguments inarticulate and your "points" irrelevant to the topics as discussed.

i'm not going to waste any more of my time on this matter. say whatever you want. enjoy.
still relying on irrelevant tangents (highlighting the support of other forumers) in order to "win" this debate, instead of answering me directly point for point. still unable to make a valid counterargument on your own merits. still unable to fend for yourself, instead relying on ed21x in order to save "face" haha.

like i said, if you are not hiding behind ed21x, you are hiding behind your own tangential statements which attempt to change the subject - statements about my own nationality, about other forumers, and most pathetically, statements about my avatar, lol. up to your second to last post, you demonstrated that you'd go to every length except to actually reply directly to my valid points...perhaps it's because you're full of bullshit and you don't have anything valid to say? you are turning out to be the worst debater i've ever encountered. we've gone 2 pages and you've given me 1 earnest reply.

tell me one thing before you cower away in fear. how does having halloween, easter, and christmas make america "eurocentric"? you still haven't clarified your point. will you please answer me?

as for others, they can reply to me directly as i've effectively countered ed21x already. ed21x, read my response to razqal as he seems incapable of rebuttal. maybe you can tell me how halloween and christmas make america "eurocentric". razqal apparently cannot or will not explain it. he's too busy trying to be part of your herd.

Last edited by edluva; Apr 9, 2009 at 12:16 PM.
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  #68  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 12:25 PM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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where have i even mentioned those specific holidays? i didnt. and i gave a list of items - why do you only specify holidays? again, you take my words and comments out of context, you choose to nitpick singular statements instead of taking into consideration entire broad points, you add your own twisted content and analysis, and you misinterpret - perhaps deliberate, perhaps you really lack the ability for basic reading comprehension skills despite your best efforts to present an air of intellect - my commentaries.

you say you "effectively counterd ed21x but obviously you havent because judging from his comments he doesnt agree with you - nor do i. what a hypocrite you are for nonchalantly dismissing his arguments by saying you countered them when you accuse me of doing the same. you truly are the true coward.

having said that, I AM DEFINITELY DONE COMMENTING IN THIS THREAD.
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  #69  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 12:33 PM
edluva edluva is offline
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1- I already covered this in my last post. But to add a bit more, Taiwanese culture is Chinese in origin, and still fairly young, but nobody will deny that a unique cultural identity is springing up on our little green island. And this is evident from the emerging generation, not the old, annoying politicians you speak of.

2- Taiwan's relation to China is exactly like America's relation to britain... 150 years ago. At the immediate time following the American revolution, there was still plenty of people who prided themselves on being british/irish/scottish/german in the United States (ethnocentric nationality), and many of them still hadn't accepted that American was truely American. Regardless, today we look back and point to the end of the Revolution as the beginning of America as a nation.

3. I don't see much relevance for this post, but Taiwan being threatened for its existence does not hamper it's nationalism, but probably encourages it to some degree. While people talk of political isolation, people tend to overlook the freedom that Taiwan has on the world stage that was never given to China- mainly the freedom our Taiwanese passport grants us to everywhere in the world (go to any foreign country and you are bound to see more taiwanese travelling freely than chinese), lack of restrictions on economic ties (good business ties, import/export), and tech transfer (did wonders for our hi-tech industry). Given one or the other, I think I've benefited far more from being Taiwanese than if I were Chinese, and this despite our current political "isolation," which is mainly lip service rather than action
i'll reply to your points one for one...

1.illustrate how this is so. i've made my stance clear to razqal about the descendants of waishengren. can you show me evidence that waishengren descendants are voting away from near unanimous support for kmt? and culturally, can you try to convince me as to how culturally unique taiwan is wrt china? what makes it any different from hk's "cultural uniqueness" such that a case for independence can be made?

2. america was founded on humanist values which are universal to all mankind, and do not favor race, ethnicity, or religion. can you support your implied argument that taiwan's government can live up to its declared legal universalism? because the kmt's (and to be fair, dpp's) corrupt nepotism in legislature, judiciary, and executive, the redundant "other 2 branches", the judiciary's murky interpretation of constitutional law, and taiwan's overall disaster for setting and upholding legal precedence, does not support that universalism exists in taiwan. i get your point - taiwan is young, and at that honeymoon stage with china. in the US however, that was pretty short lived episode after the revolution. i don't forsee taiwan's government cleaning its act so long as china continues courting KMT dynasties with economic and political overtures. America never had to contend with this dynamic early on. and you quickly forget another small difference - America fought a revolutionary war in order to start a clean slate. Taiwan inherited Sun Yat Sen's constitution for China.

3. taiwan's being militarily threatened prevents taiwan from declaring formal independence and obtaining formal recognition as a nation. it prevents taiwan from forming a clear identity and keeps taiwan's "ethnic groups" and political factions at each others' throats - that's pretty relevant to nationalism don't you think? you think this is outweighed by a-bian's pro-independence agenda? can you tell me what direction president ma is taking taiwan with respect to CECA then? you're right, taiwan's move towards independence is a matter of degree - now i'm asking you to tell me to what degree this is actually succeeding?

p.s. - ed21x, i can respect your points. you are much more logical than your friend.

Last edited by edluva; Apr 9, 2009 at 12:44 PM.
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  #70  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 12:50 PM
edluva edluva is offline
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Originally Posted by Razqal View Post
where have i even mentioned those specific holidays? i didnt. and i gave a list of items - why do you only specify holidays? again, you take my words and comments out of context, you choose to nitpick singular statements instead of taking into consideration entire broad points.....
i didn't "only specify holidays". you brought up holidays. i addressed that. you also said language, and i addressed that too. you also cited race, and i addressed that. you brought up religion. i countered that. you're the one making selective rebuttals, aren't you? so far you've refused to go toe to toe with me, instead calling me a "nitpick" - that's a straw man because it's obviously not true. do you want me to remind you of what you said?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razqal
how is the u.s. eurocentric? how about a lifetime of living in this country surrounded by european descendants (the 2000 u.s. census said 75% of the u.s. population are european descendants), speaking/learning english, spanish, french, latin, learning christianity, learning european literature/history/culture, etc. (very little on other world history/cultures), celebrating holidays originated in europe, the immense value the u.s. govt places on foreign relations with europe, and on and on? is this a joke question? no matter, i'm not giving any more time to it.

as you can see, i was plenty earnest. you're the one taking me out of context - i responded to all the points bolded above. on top of that, you've failed to respond to my point about religion - it's middle eastern...about language being a faulty gauge of "eurocentrism", of race being a faulty gauge of "eurocentrism"....so far you've ignored all of these completely valid rebuttals. but you can sure fan the flames, can't you? apparently you are a liar and your completely bent on saving face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razqal
you say you "effectively counterd ed21x but obviously you havent because judging from his comments he doesnt agree with you - nor do i. what a hypocrite you are for nonchalantly dismissing his arguments by saying you countered them when you accuse me of doing the same.
see above post. lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razqal
having said that, I AM DEFINITELY DONE COMMENTING IN THIS THREAD.
^who's the coward now?

at lest ed21x is honest enough to make valid rebuttals to my face. razqal, you've spent so much energy trying to save face by attempting to change the topic, helping to drag our "debate" to 2 pages, when all you had to do was make one single reply to address my points as ed21x has above.

and now you're trying to play it off as though you "tried" and "give up". good one but noone's falling for that one.

Last edited by edluva; Apr 9, 2009 at 1:01 PM.
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  #71  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 12:55 PM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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http://open.salon.com/blog/bill_beck...t_do_they_want


Quote:
According to the United States population density and distribution data from 2006, white people make up 74% of the 299 million residents. That amounts to 221.3 million people who define themselves as non-ethnic, non-hispanic, white. The images of white people are everywhere. Their presence can’t be missed in advertising, and culture. The sound of voices on the airwaves is disproportionately “white”.


Generally I am loathe to say that a color or ethnicity has a sound, like one may refer to “white music” or “black music”. I tend to think of this as a conflation of cultural elements which are not necessarily linked. But the term serves in the vernacular for what might more accurately, and more academically be called worldview. The United States has a decidedly euro-centric worldview. The euro-centric worldview is in fact so pervasive that many are not aware that another world view is possible.


This Western worldview has been developing for millennia since the time before Christ, and the creation of the self. For the last 500 years, the Western, or euro-centric worldview has dominated the world financially and militarily. The English language, and all aspects of culture from economics to art have held sway around the globe.
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  #72  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 1:08 PM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

"Halloween (or, by semantic correctness: Hallowe’en) is a holiday celebrated on October 31. It has roots in the Celtic festival of Samhain and the Christian holy day of All Saints. It is largely a secular celebration, but some Christians and pagans have expressed strong feelings about its religious overtones.[1][2][3] Irish immigrants carried versions of the tradition to North America during Ireland's Great Famine of 1846.[4] The day is often associated with the colors orange and black, and is strongly associated with symbols such as the jack-o'-lantern. Halloween activities include trick-or-treating, ghost tours, bonfires, costume parties, visiting haunted attractions, carving jack-o'-lanterns, reading scary stories, and watching horror movies."

Origin of name
The term Halloween is shortened from All Hallows Eve (both "even" and "eve" are abbreviations of "evening," but "Halloween" gets its "n" from "even") as it is the eve of "All Hallows' Day",[10] which is now also known as All Saints' Day. It was a day of religious festivities in various northern European pagan traditions,[11] until Popes Gregory III and Gregory IV moved the old Christian feast of All Saints' Day from May 13 (which had itself been the date of a pagan holiday, the Feast of the Lemures) to November 1. In the 9th century, the Church measured the day as starting at sunset, in accordance with the Florentine calendar. Although All Saints' Day is now considered to occur one day after Halloween, the two holidays were, at that time, celebrated on the same day."


as i originally said, european origins, european holiday.
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  #73  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 1:10 PM
edluva edluva is offline
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^firstly - i thought you were done "debating".
secondly, thanks. now you're actually participating
thirdly, how is that a valid counterarugment?

instead of hiding behind ed21x's points, or hiding behind magazines editorials, can you tell me how such citations are true? demonstrate some of your own thought for change...i don't agree with every newpaper or magazine editorial in existence and you shouldn't either...

for instance:

Quote:
This Western worldview has been developing for millennia since the time before Christ, and the creation of the self. For the last 500 years, the Western, or euro-centric worldview has dominated the world financially and militarily. The English language, and all aspects of culture from economics to art have held sway around the globe.
what is this "western worldview" they are referring to? in my opinion, this "worldview" is that of reason. science. logic. objectivity. i heartily disagree with the magazine's implied characterization of reason, science, logic, objectivity as being "eurocentric" - logic knows no cultural bias.

confucianism is counter to logic or reason, since it is counter to socratic asceticism. basically, the socratic tradition gave birth to democratic ideals of universal humanism. there is nothing "eurocentric" about universal human rights - they are universal. so how can they be "eurocentric"?

confucianism, however, is not universal. it is subjective - it emphasizes the family as a functioning unit of society, rather than the individual. thus, no individualism. no individualism = no objectivity.

do you not agree? if not, then why?

Last edited by edluva; Apr 9, 2009 at 1:28 PM.
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  #74  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 1:15 PM
edluva edluva is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Razqal View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween

"Halloween (or, by semantic correctness: Hallowe’en) is a holiday celebrated on October 31. It has roots in the Celtic festival of Samhain and the Christian holy day of All Saints. It is largely a secular celebration, but some Christians and pagans have expressed strong feelings about its religious overtones.[1][2][3] Irish immigrants carried versions of the tradition to North America during Ireland's Great Famine of 1846.[4] The day is often associated with the colors orange and black, and is strongly associated with symbols such as the jack-o'-lantern. Halloween activities include trick-or-treating, ghost tours, bonfires, costume parties, visiting haunted attractions, carving jack-o'-lanterns, reading scary stories, and watching horror movies."

Origin of name
The term Halloween is shortened from All Hallows Eve (both "even" and "eve" are abbreviations of "evening," but "Halloween" gets its "n" from "even") as it is the eve of "All Hallows' Day",[10] which is now also known as All Saints' Day. It was a day of religious festivities in various northern European pagan traditions,[11] until Popes Gregory III and Gregory IV moved the old Christian feast of All Saints' Day from May 13 (which had itself been the date of a pagan holiday, the Feast of the Lemures) to November 1. In the 9th century, the Church measured the day as starting at sunset, in accordance with the Florentine calendar. Although All Saints' Day is now considered to occur one day after Halloween, the two holidays were, at that time, celebrated on the same day."


as i originally said, european origins, european holiday.
that's all fine and dandy. you missed my entire point, however.

is halloween a "tradition" that permeates my every day existence? does it influence how i honor my ancestors? my friends? does it influence how i think about the world on a daily basis?

my point is, does having a holiday one day each year, where kids ask for candy in their scariest outfits, have the same influence as confucianism does on everyday living?

btw - i stated before that halloween has pagan origins - it is prehistoric. it's denounced by serious christians of all denomiations. and its traditions in america (dressing up as ghosts, asking for candy) are not derived from europe. i also stated this earlier - apparently you decided to ignore that.
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  #75  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 1:18 PM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas

Winter festivals

"Christians consider Jesus to be the "sun of righteousness" prophesied in Malachi 4:2.A winter festival was the most popular festival of the year in many cultures. Reasons included the fact that less agricultural work needs to be done during the winter, as well as an expectation of better weather as spring approached.[21] Modern Christmas customs include: gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia; greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; and Yule logs and various foods from Germanic feasts.[22] Pagan Scandinavia celebrated a winter festival called Yule, held in the late December to early January period. As Northern Europe was the last part to Christianize, its pagan traditions had a major influence on Christmas. Scandinavians still call Christmas Jul. In English, the word Yule is synonymous with Christmas,[23] a usage first recorded in 900."


as i originally said, european origins, european holiday.
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  #76  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 1:21 PM
edluva edluva is offline
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^same counterargument as halloween. did you read my posts at all?

does christmas influence how the average american thinks? acts? interacts with family? friends? society? does it influence how american society functions 365 days of the year like confucianism influences chinese society 365 days a year?

my point is, having a holiday, even if some traditions have european origins, does not make america "eurocentric". does celebrating christmas in japan make japan "eurocentric" does celebrating halloween in taiwan make taiwan "eurocentic"


btw. please read my posts before wasting your time on irrelevant information. i've been making these points for the entire page now and we keep going in circles.

Last edited by edluva; Apr 9, 2009 at 2:01 PM.
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  #77  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 1:32 PM
Razqal Razqal is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edluva View Post
2. ...Can you tell me exactly why you believe the US is "eurocentric"? It's a very simple question, razqal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Razqal View Post
how is the u.s. eurocentric? how about a lifetime of living in this country surrounded by european descendants (the 2000 u.s. census said 75% of the u.s. population are european descendants), speaking/learning english, spanish, french, latin, learning christianity, learning european literature/history/culture, etc. (very little on other world history/cultures), celebrating holidays originated in europe, the immense value the u.s. govt places on foreign relations with europe, and on and on? is this a joke question? no matter, i'm not giving any more time to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edluva View Post
you have given a bullshit argument about holidays? what, halloween? trick or treating is a chiefly american invention, i bet you didn't know that did you? halloween has pagan origins - origins which were denounced by the vatican over two millenia. bet you didn't know that either did you? christmas? that's a christian holiday last time i checked.
please see above small samples of cited evidence. much more in your local american public libraries, schools, colleges, universities, internet, etc. the truth is out there.

p.s. dont forget columbus day, st. patrick's, etc.
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  #78  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 1:33 PM
edluva edluva is offline
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^is that supposed to be a reply?

so now you're hiding behind "your local american public libraries, schools, colleges, universities, internet, etc"...

let me remind you of where we're still at...

Quote:
Originally Posted by edluva
.....you've failed to respond to my point about religion - it's middle eastern...about language being a faulty gauge of "eurocentrism", of race being a faulty gauge of "eurocentrism"....so far you've ignored all of these completely valid rebuttals. but you can sure fan the flames, can't you? apparently you are a liar and your completely bent on saving face.
if you cant make a single acceptable argument which supports your theory that the US is "eurocentric", and that "eurocentrism" functions in a similar fashion to Taiwans confucianism, then how do you expect me to go to my "local american public library"? you haven't offered an ounce of support for your theory. is that the best you can come up with?

wow, i'm pretty amazed. i take it you have nothing else to add.

Last edited by edluva; Apr 9, 2009 at 1:52 PM.
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  #79  
Old Posted Apr 9, 2009, 1:46 PM
edluva edluva is offline
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Originally Posted by Razqal View Post
p.s. dont forget columbus day, st. patrick's, etc.
again, do i think of st patrick's day every day?

in taiwan, confucianism influences society at every level, every single day.
is st patrick's day the same as confucianism, lol?

does celebrating christmas make japan "eurocentric"? does celebrating valentines day make taiwan roman catholic?

you are not making any sense

p.s. columbus day is an american holiday. but that's besides the point
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  #80  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2009, 3:13 PM
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This is getting a bit crazy here.....do we even have a mod in this forum?
I'll be a fake one.....please end this discussion.

If you want to argue about this, please use your PM feature and that's what it's for. Or, alternatively, you can start another thread and call it "The Definition of Taiwan" or "Chinese vs. Taiwan"
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