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Originally Posted by Razqal
it's completely relevant if you are chinese/taiwanese because you are representing yourself as some kind of expert on chinese/taiwanese/confucian culture. since you weaseled your way out of answering the question i'm assuming you're not even chinese/taiwanese. hence your credibility went down a few notches in my book.
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if you cared an ounce for objectivity, you wouldn't care who was making an argument so long as that argument were valid. apparently you and i differ on this point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razqal
you are really wasting my time. but here you go:
1.) you say: "basically japanese culture is clearly very different from chinese (Taiwanese) so your comparison to japan is moot"
where did i even say japan and taiwan were the same? that whole point of yours is moot.
ok i'll give you this: perhaps i shouldnt have said japan is a confucius society, BUT neither has confucianism not played a significant role in japanese society as you seem to proffer. i should have said this: "japan, korea and taiwan are all countries influenced by confucianism". this was a response to your original comment criticizing confucian values in taiwan which really started this whole entire debacle. confucianism has definitely been a part of japanese history and culture and influences its society even to this day. thanks to the internet/google i've found experts out there that can do the work for me and save me lots of time:
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^^you seem to be debating with yourself. i know confucian history probably better than you do. i fully appreciate the influence it's had on non-chinese societies like japan, korea, or vietnam, so you're preaching to the choir here.
i was not implying that you equated confucianism in taiwan with that of japan. i was discrediting your use of japan's success to suggest that taiwan can do the same. obviously, i'm saying that japan is 1. not confucian but rather, confucian influenced and 2. in a completely different situation than taiwan...independence, culture, tradition, values are all different from china - not so with taiwan. apparently you didn't understand that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by razqal
2. you misread my comments. i compared taiwan's and the u.s.'s founding as countries similar, not the way that you put it. go back and reread it and dont misquote me. this is why i dont bother with your comments anymore. waste of time.
how is the u.s. eurocentric? how about a lifetime of living in this country surrounded by european descendants (the 2000 u.s. census said 75% of the u.s. population are european descendants), speaking/learning english, spanish, french, latin, learning christianity, learning european literature/history/culture, etc. (very little on other world history/cultures), celebrating holidays originated in europe, the immense value the u.s. govt places on foreign relations with europe, and on and on? is this a joke question? no matter, i'm not giving any more time to it.
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^demonstrate how speaking english makes a people "eurocentric". i speak fluent mandarin - does that then make me "sinocentric" or confucian? i also speak pretty darn good spanish - does that make me "hispanocentric" too?
demonstrate how being of caucasian descent makes america "eurocentric". i am yellow skinned. does that then make me "sinocentric"? i have a dark tan, does that make me partial "afrocentric"?
demonstrate how "learning christianity" makes america "eurocentric". first of all, christianity is an abrahamic religion - it's origins are middle eastern. does that then make the US "abrahamocentric"? or "israelocentric"?
you have given a bullshit argument about holidays? what, halloween? trick or treating is a chiefly american invention, i bet you didn't know that did you? halloween has pagan origins - origins which were denounced by the vatican over two millenia. bet you didn't know that either did you? christmas? that's a christian holiday last time i checked. but that's all besides the point. the main question is....do any of these holidays permeate our the lives of americans the way confucianism does in taiwan? does christmas influence the way i think, influence my relationships with my parents? my grandparents? my close friends? my ancestors? my country? how i view my responsibility to the government and society at large? and do they do this 365 days a year? lol
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Originally Posted by Razqal
3. you clearly pulled this out of context and mixing together different topics - AGAIN. i was SPECIFICALLY referring to all 3 countries being influence by confucianism - that's it.
you said: "taiwan's only hope lies in its youth's ability to write a more inclusive, more taiwanese chapter of history. but this would require the waishengren divorce themselves from their kmt legacy. this would require they find freedom from confucian values, freedom from filial piety, and ultimately freedom from nepotism."
i said: "plus what does those chinese values have anything to do with designing better architecture or building world class name brands or nationalism? china, south korea and japan are all confucian societies that practice filial piety and nepotism. that hasnt hindered their economic development and nationalistic sentiment. if anything maybe it's a benefit. it's having these confucian values which emphasizes education and dictates studying/working hard and obedience and respect for elders that has helped to establish the foundation for the success of these asian nations."
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as i've said before. japan is not a "confucian society". it was heavily
influenced by confucianism. you are actually contradicting yourself as you acceded that point yourself above...
secondly, where have i made a statement about economic development? taiwan's an economic miracle so far as i'm concerned. i'm talking about the lack of nationalism in taiwan. the lack of an identity.
if you ask any waishengren's kid who they're supporting ("kids" being a loose term for young people born and educated in taiwan - teenaged to say, 40 yrs old) you're going to run into the same hard-headed support for the kmt that their parents and grandparents spoonfed them with, to a rate of about 99 percent loyalty. taiwanese people aren't individualists - they don't think for themselves. nor do other asians. there is a herd mentality among asian societies. this herd mentality is killing free thought. it is killing hope for a functional democracy.
i guarantee you, just because an american is borne of conservative parents, you're not going to see a 99 percent ideological concordance from generation to generation. you mean to tell me you don't think this to be peculiar, in a "democracy" such as taiwan?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razqal
i dont see why taiwan has to divorce itself of it's chinese/confucian culture in order to develop its own identity and nationalism. just because china threatens her militarily does not mean the taiwanese have to totally eradicate their chinese culture and evolutionize into something completely different, whatever that might be. regardless, taiwan has been developing its own national identity for decades now and been doing a pretty good job. as someone mentioned old generations are dying and new generations of taiwanese think of themselves as taiwanese, not chinese. yet the cultural values and traditions they practice are still very much chinese. singapore also has a dominant chinese culture yet singaporeans feel they are completely separate from china. why should taiwan be any different? just because china threatens her? no i dont think so, not a good enough reason.
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^good, now you're actually responding to my rebuttal. see, razqal, it's not so bad to debate eye to eye is it? you don't need to hide behind ed21x - you, as an individual, are responsible for your own words and actions (i know it's hard for you to understand that, being a confucianist and all
). hiding behind ed21x or other people won't help your image or credibility - you're dealing with an avowed american now (me), not a chinese. i don't take who you surround yourself by as proxy for your personal views
i'm not saying taiwan needs to completely divorce itself from confucianism. although i'd prefer that. i'm saying taiwan needs to become more secular just like a country like iran or japan needs to become more secular. democracy only functions well if its electorate can free itself from cultural burdens that keep special interest (nepotisms) from corrupting the government.
let me ask you - how does one acheive a separation of powers if the supreme court's judge is in a business partnership with the vice prez of the executive? what if the executive were indicted for money laundering? would the supreme court work for the interest of justice? this is just an example, and i know the US isn't perfect by any means, but this phenomenon is much more of a problem in taiwan. especially where KMT leaders have business and political bedfellows in the PRC. you see where i'm taking this?
you act like this phenomenon will simply disappear in one generation? don't be so naive. those politicans have kids too you know. you think those kids, being the terrific confucianists that you love, are going to rebel against their ancestors and have a sudden attack of conscience? it's hard enough for the american privileged class to do this, you think "guai guai" KMT kids will do the same?
japan is another example where nepotism runs rampant. but the family isn't as confucian in japan - will you agree? japanese families are pretty nuclear - mom, dad, son, daughter. where nepotism comes into japanese society is with respect to face. that's where japanese and taiwanese share a common confucian virtue but that's also where similarities end. so japan manifests in a very different way (albeit with its own problems for democracy), because in addition to having some confucian traits, japanese have values of their own. i can talk lengths about japan's problems, but that's even further off topic.
and again, japan isn't trying to tear itself from china. taiwan is. japan has very strong nationalism. it's got a very strong identity. and a very distinct culture and tradition. all things that taiwan does not. so i am merely discrediting your comparison with japan or korea - the success of the latter two do not help your case. they are different to begin with, their circumstances are very very different from taiwans.
can you deny any of what i've said? without hiding your
face behind others in order to appear strong?