Is it time for Ontario to be split up into new Provinces?

[GeneralLeeTPHLS]

Originally Posted by Doady

To ensure that the ROO (The Rest of Ontario, the real Ontario) gets its fair share of investment from the province, maybe the GTA should be split off from Ontario and made its own province. Without the need to pay for LRTs in the GTA, the amount of money flowing into Windsor, London, Northern Ontario, etc. would increase drastically. Even as a GTA resident, I would support kicking the GTA out of Ontario 100%, for the sake of the ROO. Let's do it.

I like this idea^
With all this investment into projects related with the Golden horseshoe and nearby, the ROO is just left out with meager investments from what the province decides to give them. Really, we should get the GGHA out of Ontario's scope, to help out ROO.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by toaster

You must not be from Northern Ontario. It is not a rural vs. urban divide, people from Sudbury or Timmins city proper (urban centres relative to their areas) have views in line with the rest of rural Northern Ontario, in thinking that the GTA controls everything, and not enough is done for them. The "left", which is much more labour left, in the North are probably further away from their left peers in the GTA than their right peers in the North.

I'm a southerner.

The north does have a cohesive regional profile but excluding the north, the divide is much more rural vs. urban than GTA vs. rest-of-south. Ottawa is more on side with Toronto than it is with Pembroke or Cornwall. London is more on side with Toronto than it is with Goderich or Port Dover.

[manny_santos]

The decision to reinstate the spring bear hunt really highlights the divide between Northern and Southern Ontario, looking at comments on Facebook.

Toronto-area residents are horrified, with one on The Star's Facebook page even claiming bears "never" hurt anyone in Ontario. A guy from Timmins was immediately able to produce three news articles from the past three years about bears attacking people in Ontario. Other urban people think that bears are being threatened by ever-expanding urban areas, not realizing that Northern Ontario towns and cities aren't enjoying the growth that Toronto and the GTA have. Far from it, in fact. Plus even if they were growing at a rapid rate, there's sure a lot more space for wildlife up there.

I'm not a pro-gun person by any means - I'd love for the U.S. to repeal the 2nd Amendment, in fact - but hunting does have its place, and one of those purposes to control the population of nuisance animals. I'm glad to see a solution to the bear problem for Northern Ontario that transcends what people in Toronto think is the best solution for all of the province.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by Doady

I am confused. What LRTs are planned in London and Windor that require funding?

http://www.am980.ca/2015/11/04/64294/

While this is an official announcement, this plan is not new.

[manny_santos]

One of the patterns I've noticed about the Toronto/GTA vs. everyone else debate that seems to rage on comment boards on various news sites, as well as talking to Torontonians, is that there are a number of misconceptions about the populations of Toronto, the GTA, and other Ontario cities relative to Ontario and the rest of Canada. Some of the claims I've read/heard:

- The population of the City of Toronto alone is over 6 million (it is only 2.6 million)
- The population of the GTA is a quarter of Canada's population (it is around 17%, about one sixth)
- The majority of Ontario's population lives in the GTA (it is around 44% of Ontario's population)
- The population of some of the cities outside the GTA are very small; I've heard "under 50,000" for London and "20,000" for Peterborough, and shock at how big Kingston is.

Invariably a lot of the discussion about whether to split Ontario up into multiple provinces stems from anti-Toronto resentment, and I think some of the root cause of this resentment are these wild beliefs people have about how big Toronto is relative to the rest of Ontario and Canada. No wonder some Torontonians think their city is far more important than everyone else if they think their city has 6 million people and cities like London and Peterborough are between 10,000 and 40,000.

I would love to see a formal survey done to ask Torontonians what they think the population of the city (not the whole GTA) is, how much of Canada the GTA represents, and what they think the population of a selection of other Ontario cities is. Those results could be interesting.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

The decision to reinstate the spring bear hunt really highlights the divide between Northern and Southern Ontario, looking at comments on Facebook.

Toronto-area residents are horrified, with one on The Star's Facebook page even claiming bears "never" hurt anyone in Ontario. A guy from Timmins was immediately able to produce three news articles from the past three years about bears attacking people in Ontario. Other urban people think that bears are being threatened by ever-expanding urban areas, not realizing that Northern Ontario towns and cities aren't enjoying the growth that Toronto and the GTA have. Far from it, in fact. Plus even if they were growing at a rapid rate, there's sure a lot more space for wildlife up there.

I'm not a pro-gun person by any means - I'd love for the U.S. to repeal the 2nd Amendment, in fact - but hunting does have its place, and one of those purposes to control the population of nuisance animals. I'm glad to see a solution to the bear problem for Northern Ontario that transcends what people in Toronto think is the best solution for all of the province.

There are people like that up here.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by GeneralLee(Toronto )

I like this idea^
With all this investment into projects related with the Golden horseshoe and nearby, the ROO is just left out with meager investments from what the province decides to give them. Really, we should get the GGHA out of Ontario's scope, to help out ROO.

Agreed. It should be split off, but lord knows that might be a constitutional nightmare. It should still be done, though.

Originally Posted by manny_santos

The decision to reinstate the spring bear hunt really highlights the divide between Northern and Southern Ontario, looking at comments on Facebook.

Toronto-area residents are horrified, with one on The Star's Facebook page even claiming bears "never" hurt anyone in Ontario. A guy from Timmins was immediately able to produce three news articles from the past three years about bears attacking people in Ontario. Other urban people think that bears are being threatened by ever-expanding urban areas, not realizing that Northern Ontario towns and cities aren't enjoying the growth that Toronto and the GTA have. Far from it, in fact. Plus even if they were growing at a rapid rate, there's sure a lot more space for wildlife up there.

I'm not a pro-gun person by any means - I'd love for the U.S. to repeal the 2nd Amendment, in fact - but hunting does have its place, and one of those purposes to control the population of nuisance animals. I'm glad to see a solution to the bear problem for Northern Ontario that transcends what people in Toronto think is the best solution for all of the province.

Yeah, we southerners really don't have any idea about the realities of northern Ontario. It's a different place. I learned that in my three years living there.

Originally Posted by manny_santos

One of the patterns I've noticed about the Toronto/GTA vs. everyone else debate that seems to rage on comment boards on various news sites, as well as talking to Torontonians, is that there are a number of misconceptions about the populations of Toronto, the GTA, and other Ontario cities relative to Ontario and the rest of Canada. Some of the claims I've read/heard:

- The population of the City of Toronto alone is over 6 million (it is only 2.6 million)
- The population of the GTA is a quarter of Canada's population (it is around 17%, about one sixth)
- The majority of Ontario's population lives in the GTA (it is around 44% of Ontario's population)
- The population of some of the cities outside the GTA are very small; I've heard "under 50,000" for London and "20,000" for Peterborough, and shock at how big Kingston is.

Invariably a lot of the discussion about whether to split Ontario up into multiple provinces stems from anti-Toronto resentment, and I think some of the root cause of this resentment are these wild beliefs people have about how big Toronto is relative to the rest of Ontario and Canada. No wonder some Torontonians think their city is far more important than everyone else if they think their city has 6 million people and cities like London and Peterborough are between 10,000 and 40,000.

I would love to see a formal survey done to ask Torontonians what they think the population of the city (not the whole GTA) is, how much of Canada the GTA represents, and what they think the population of a selection of other Ontario cities is. Those results could be interesting.

I'd pay good money to see a Rick Mercer segment on that.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

The decision to reinstate the spring bear hunt really highlights the divide between Northern and Southern Ontario, looking at comments on Facebook.

Toronto-area residents are horrified, with one on The Star's Facebook page even claiming bears "never" hurt anyone in Ontario. A guy from Timmins was immediately able to produce three news articles from the past three years about bears attacking people in Ontario. Other urban people think that bears are being threatened by ever-expanding urban areas, not realizing that Northern Ontario towns and cities aren't enjoying the growth that Toronto and the GTA have. Far from it, in fact. Plus even if they were growing at a rapid rate, there's sure a lot more space for wildlife up there.

I'm not a pro-gun person by any means - I'd love for the U.S. to repeal the 2nd Amendment, in fact - but hunting does have its place, and one of those purposes to control the population of nuisance animals. I'm glad to see a solution to the bear problem for Northern Ontario that transcends what people in Toronto think is the best solution for all of the province.

I feel the same way and live in Timmins. But the Spring bear hunt likely won't make much difference. Barely any local people here hunt bears. It is birds and moose that people here want. It is almost entirely American visitors who hunt bear. And Quebec has had a Spring bear hunt for a long time and there have been the same sort of problems there.

Yes, there hasn't been growth in most Northern Ontario communities. But, logging continues and there has been a HUGE increase in mining exploration and activity over the last 10 years. Even then I don't know how much those things affect black bears. I have yet to read any actual studies.

A lot of people who live in places without bears don't understand what it's like when they become a nuisance and what they can do. I always respect them and keep my distance as they are very unpredictable.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

Agreed. It should be split off, but lord knows that might be a constitutional nightmare. It should still be done, though.

Yeah, we southerners really don't have any idea about the realities of northern Ontario. It's a different place. I learned that in my three years living there.

I'd pay good money to see a Rick Mercer segment on that.

Was Nunavut a nightmare? Yes, territories are fundamentally different than provinces, but, it could still be done.

I have a friend that moved from Toronto to Sudbury 5 years ago. To this day, I still jokingly say "Welcome to Northern Ontario" when he wines about something that we dont have, or that we do have that bothers him.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

One of the patterns I've noticed about the Toronto/GTA vs. everyone else debate that seems to rage on comment boards on various news sites, as well as talking to Torontonians, is that there are a number of misconceptions about the populations of Toronto, the GTA, and other Ontario cities relative to Ontario and the rest of Canada. Some of the claims I've read/heard:

- The population of the City of Toronto alone is over 6 million (it is only 2.6 million)
- The population of the GTA is a quarter of Canada's population (it is around 17%, about one sixth)
- The majority of Ontario's population lives in the GTA (it is around 44% of Ontario's population)
- The population of some of the cities outside the GTA are very small; I've heard "under 50,000" for London and "20,000" for Peterborough, and shock at how big Kingston is.

Invariably a lot of the discussion about whether to split Ontario up into multiple provinces stems from anti-Toronto resentment, and I think some of the root cause of this resentment are these wild beliefs people have about how big Toronto is relative to the rest of Ontario and Canada. No wonder some Torontonians think their city is far more important than everyone else if they think their city has 6 million people and cities like London and Peterborough are between 10,000 and 40,000.

I would love to see a formal survey done to ask Torontonians what they think the population of the city (not the whole GTA) is, how much of Canada the GTA represents, and what they think the population of a selection of other Ontario cities is. Those results could be interesting.

You're quibbling over semantics and a few percentages point here. Saying that Toronto has 6 million people is true, even if not technically correct. Saying that the majority of Ontario lives in the GTA may not be true, but it's so close enough to being the truth that I don't know why it rankles your feathers. Not to mention that it may in fact be true, dependng on how inclusive you're being in your definition of "GTA".

[vid]

Our bear problem isn't caused by overpopulation (there are still less bears than 50+ years ago), it's a lack of food problem, and that's caused by resource extraction damaging the land and climate change altering significantly altering our regional precipitation and growing seasons. Bears are coming into cities not because they're being crowded out by all the other bears in the forest, but because the forest no longer has enough food to adequately feed them all and they're desperate for it.

I don't oppose the spring bear hunt as long as they're not orphaning cubs (killing a male bear takes out one bear; killing a female bear in spring takes out not just her, but her cubs as well, decreasing the population faster) but we have to stop saying it's because they're "coming into cities" and start realizing that it's because our natural environment and climate is severely damaged.

Another things that Northern Ontario is experiencing more than Southern Ontario, is the affects of climate change. The temperature swings and changes in seasonal precipitation are much, much more pronounced in this region than in the south.

[swimmer_spe]

A population needs a certain amount of resources, such as food. If there is a lack of food, then the area is overpopulated.

Northern Ontario is a resource based economy. to stop mining or logging means the north looses hundreds of thousands of jobs.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by theman23

You're quibbling over semantics and a few percentages point here. Saying that Toronto has 6 million people is true, even if not technically correct. Saying that the majority of Ontario lives in the GTA may not be true, but it's so close enough to being the truth that I don't know why it rankles your feathers. Not to mention that it may in fact be true, dependng on how inclusive you're being in your definition of "GTA".

It rankles my feathers because people use these exaggerated arguments (along with the claims of how low the populations of other cities supposedly are) to make arguments about taking money away from the rest of Ontario to fund projects in the GTA. If Toronto alone was 6 million and the GTA in total was 80% of Ontario's population (an actual claim I've seen on Facebook), I'd be pretty pissed that a city of 30,000 was getting a big LRT investment at the expense of GO Transit.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

It rankles my feathers because people use these exaggerated arguments (along with the claims of how low the populations of other cities supposedly are) to make arguments about taking money away from the rest of Ontario to fund projects in the GTA. If Toronto alone was 6 million and the GTA in total was 80% of Ontario's population (an actual claim I've seen on Facebook), I'd be pretty pissed that a city of 30,000 was getting a big LRT investment at the expense of GO Transit.

This.

I know lots of people who have moved to Toronto and the GTA, and they have some knowledge about the rest of the province. However, a lot of my friends born and raised in Toronto, Markham, Etobicoke, Oakville, etc. have a lot of misconceptions about the province outside of their region.

Hell, a Torontonian friend of mine was shocked to see how "big" Ottawa was compared to what he thought it was. There is an incredible amount of focus on the GTA in this province and that's understandable. But any part of the province that isn't the GTA or adjacent to the GTA essentially has to fend for itself most of the time.

I don't hate Toronto and the GTA but it's at the point where it really should become its own province, and I'd argue the same for Northern Ontario becoming its own province. Then they don't have to scream and shout to get scraps left over from the GTA's table.

[Scarface]

I have to asked. If the Province of Ontario where to separate into 2 or more provinces where would it be split, and how would that decision be made, and also what would the newly severed provinces be named? Would we Just add Norther, and Southern to Ontario, or would the new province have it's own name to sever ties to Ontario.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Scarface

I have to asked. If the Province of Ontario where to separate into 2 or more provinces where would it be split, and how would that decision be made, and also what who the newly severed provinces be named? Would we Just add Norther, and Southern to Ontario, or would the new province have it's own name to sever ties to Ontario.

Generally Northern Ontario includes the districts but NOT the districts of Parry Sound and Muskoka.

The aboriginal name for almost all of what is Northern Ontario is Nishnawbe-Aski. That would likely be the new name.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by Scarface

I have to asked. If the Province of Ontario where to separate into 2 or more provinces where would it be split, and how would that decision be made, and also what who the newly severed provinces be named? Would we Just add Norther, and Southern to Ontario, or would the new province have it's own name to sever ties to Ontario.

The creation of new provinces needs to go through the 7/50 amending formula, so the other provinces would need to be on board in terms of the number of seats in the House/Senate. I would assume that the interior boundaries and new names would be decided by Ontario through some combination of a commission/referendum/legislative vote.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by waterloowarrior

The creation of new provinces needs to go through the 7/50 amending formula, so the other provinces would need to be on board in terms of the number of seats in the House/Senate. I would assume that the interior boundaries and new names would be decided by Ontario through some combination of a commission/referendum/legislative vote.

So, what is the first step?

[vid]

The first step would be having the parliament of either Ontario or Canada successfully pass a resolution that expresses support for the severing of Ontario into two provinces, and possibly outlaying the terms of that separation. From there, you would need identical resolutions passed by the federal parliament (both houses) and at least 7 provinces, which must have among them at least 50% of the country's population. If you want to go even smaller than that, the first step would be demonstrating in Ontario a clear political will among both politicians and the people to sever Ontario into two or more separate parts. I don't think we'd get there; as much as Northern Ontarians hate the south, we don't throw any of that hate behind a regional party. People have tried and they never go anywhere.

Our constitution is one of the hardest in the world to amend, but there are things that are even less possible than creating new provinces. There are a few amendments, mainly relating to the supreme court, monarchy, and composition of the senate, which require unanimous consent. The house and senate in Ottawa and all provincial legislatures must pass identical resolutions to amend those parts of the constitution. If we wanted to get rid of the Queen, for example, and everyone but PEI said "yes", because PEI wasn't on board, it wouldn't happen. Which is kind of absurd, but that's what we created for ourselves with the Constitution Act of 1982. Until then we literally didn't have any set method to amend the constitution, so we kind of went from one extreme to the other.

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by vid

The first step would be having the parliament of either Ontario or Canada successfully pass a resolution that expresses support for the severing of Ontario into two provinces, and possibly outlaying the terms of that separation. From there, you would need identical resolutions passed by the federal parliament (both houses) and at least 7 provinces, which must have among them at least 50% of the country's population. If you want to go even smaller than that, the first step would be demonstrating in Ontario a clear political will among both politicians and the people to sever Ontario into two or more separate parts. I don't think we'd get there; as much as Northern Ontarians hate the south, we don't throw any of that hate behind a regional party. People have tried and they never go anywhere.

Our constitution is one of the hardest in the world to amend, but there are things that are even less possible than creating new provinces. There are a few amendments, mainly relating to the supreme court, monarchy, and composition of the senate, which require unanimous consent. The house and senate in Ottawa and all provincial legislatures must pass identical resolutions to amend those parts of the constitution. If we wanted to get rid of the Queen, for example, and everyone but PEI said "yes", because PEI wasn't on board, it wouldn't happen. Which is kind of absurd, but that's what we created for ourselves with the Constitution Act of 1982. Until then we literally didn't have any set method to amend the constitution, so we kind of went from one extreme to the other.

I understand that the first step would be a hard one to take. But I don't think it's impossible. Seeing as Toronto, and the golden horseshoe seems to be getting the bulk of Government fund, and the rest of the province is getting the scraps might just be what needs to be brought up, and also the real Population stats for Ontario. That just might be the push that needs to be done to get the approval for the separation of the province of Ontario into 2 Provinces. There would be less push back if the facts where out on the table.

On a separate note I had posted on my Facebook page about this, and actually got this as a response from an acquaintance who lives in Toronto

Why don't the 100000, or so residence who live outside the go transit system just move within it? Problem solved

I'm going to guess the girl who commented this was not joking about thinking the majority of Ontario's population is in Toronto, and surrounding, and only 100,000 or so residence live outside the area based on her other comments on Facebook, and other social media.