HARRISBURG-LANCASTER-LEBANON-YORK | South Central, PA | Regional Development Thread

[crs921]

Read my earlier post - and then read this response from a Harrisburg City Council Rep.

I was not on council when the residence at Market and 4th was discussed
so I can not comment on that. I know that many projects are discussed
and announced in the newspaper and often they do not get built due to a
variety of reasons.

The HBG U tower was lowered by HBG U due to a lack of funding; City
Council was not involved in the decision to lower it. Council did
guarantee bonds related to the project's parking garage located within
the building - that made the building possible.

Zoning laws govern the heights of buildings in HBG and exceptions are
granted by the Zoning Hearing Board, not City Council. I am not certain
what the height limit is for the new building you mention as no
information on it has come to Council at this time.

I do believe that most of council is in agreement with downtown
development including high rise buildings. I hope this helps you to
decide to live in our fine city of Harrisburg. Dan Miller, HBG City
Council

[Young Gun]

Originally Posted by crs921

I have emailed all members of Harrisburg City Council asking what the height limit is, if any, and why. I explained the need for progress downtown - including residential/condo towers, and a much better skyline.

I also asked about why projects are scaled down in areas that could use some serious modernization. (Harrisburg U tower, the anticipated "Residence" condo project, etc)

I will share any responses I get here.

To date, Harrisburg has the following projects. Can anyone think of anything else (OVER 12-STORIES)?

16-STORY HARRISBURG UNIV. TOWER
13-STORY ALOFT HOTEL
19-STORY 2ND STREET ASSOCIATES
20-STORY NEW FEDERAL COURTHOUSE

The Barto Building Hotel proposal on the corner of State and Third is supposed to get 3 more stories I think that will make it 12 stories. Is the tracey Manor project over 12 stories? I forget. I think the height limit ordance has also been revised to allow easier development. I remember some of the stick up in council last fall was one of the council members wanted to use the Aloft as a precedent to easy height restrictions. I think it is inevitable that the capital will be surrounded by tall buildings. However The capital should still be visible from far away due to its height on the hill and the width of state street. Actually the Aloft doesn't obscure any views of the capital despite being 14 stories and a block away

[danwxman]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

It's funny how you say that w/ such authority...how many meetings did you attend in the city again? How long did you live in the city at the point these projects were being planned?

Anyway, there was a problem w/ the amount of residential units and the height of the building. The developer required a certain amount of units for them to do the project and make it feasible, but the city wanted to scale back the height, which in turn didn't give the developer enough units. Squabbling ensued, the developer eventually said forget it, and here we are now w/ HU there. Exactly like all of the big residential projects to date (think Front St.) the city hurts when they should be helping...

And if you remember correctly, even the HU went from being 22 stories down to 20 down to 18 to now whatever it is going to be (I think 16 at last count). Yes, that was a combination of the city and the project's funding, but you get the point; Harrisburg NIMBYs and most of City Council seem to fear height and any big project that will make it more than what it is currently...

According to Dan Miller council had nothing to do with it, so there you go.

And the Front St project is a go.

[Spudmrg]

Just checking in....

Why it is that despite all of the urban residential work done elsewhere, you don't see anything in 'da burg. I'd like to live in a place where I can walk out of a condo and go to work/play/whatever. Living in a car fighting traffic just does'nt appeal to me. All of the (comparatively) cheap real estate right outside the CBD, and almost nothing to show for it. If I had money, I'd be looking at HBG real estate.

[EastSideHBG]

Ugh, I don't know why I am even bothering here, but...

If you notice in my original post I said, "Petty squabbling with the city." This includes the zoning dept. which is, ta da!, part of the city.

Originally Posted by danwxman

According to Dan Miller council had nothing to do with it, so there you go.

City Council helps approve or disapprove of projects, and they have the power to tie up projects for study after study, refer it to the zoning board for further investigation, etc. Again I ask: have you ever even been to a council meeting and seen how city politics work?!?

So there you go.

And the Front St project is a go.

So if this is indeed true, going by HBG time, we should see this sometime in, what, 2015 or so?

[danwxman]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

Ugh, I don't know why I am even bothering here, but...

If you notice in my original post I said, "Petty squabbling with the city." This includes the zoning dept. which is, ta da!, part of the city.


City Council helps approve or disapprove of projects, and they have the power to tie up projects for study after study, refer it to the zoning board for further investigation, etc. Again I ask: have you ever even been to a council meeting and seen how city politics work?!?

So there you go.


So if this is indeed true, going by HBG time, we should see this sometime in, what, 2015 or so?

But do you have any proof city council tried to tie up this project? No you don't. Try again.

If you don't know why you are bothering, then don't...because your goal here is clearly just to bash the city more.

[Young Gun]

Originally Posted by Spudmrg

Just checking in....

Why it is that despite all of the urban residential work done elsewhere, you don't see anything in 'da burg. I'd like to live in a place where I can walk out of a condo and go to work/play/whatever. Living in a car fighting traffic just does'nt appeal to me. All of the (comparatively) cheap real estate right outside the CBD, and almost nothing to show for it. If I had money, I'd be looking at HBG real estate.

The reason there isn't any condos in the burg is there is still much too affordable housing. There is a lot of infill construction happening in midtown (between Forester and MacClay streets). These are full houses. People in this region of the state are not used to condos and will be reluctant to risk money when people might not come.

In good news the first type of urban construction is underway. On Market Street there is a loft project going on for 8 lofts converting an old warehouse. If that is successful in generating a profit I would look to see more similar projects. Hopefully development will take off similiar to 2nd street a decade ago. But new projects also need buyers and that means people to move into them. More white collar jobs in the region. (city living is typically for the office worker) While the region has an acceptable low unemployment rate there isn't a lot of new companies moving in. As a region Harrisburg needs to promote the low taxes (outside the city limits) and affordable living to companies.

[danwxman]

The Harrisburg region has a lot of large employers. Highmark and Rite Aid in East Pennsboro township employ hundreds of people (was announced today Highmark will be hiring 200!). The city should try to get these large employers in the suburbs to move into the city. There's still a few empty lots in downtown that could fit a mid-rise office building.

The office vacancy rate in the city is very low, maybe the lowest of any city in the state, which is pretty impressive. There is definitely a demand for more office space...I have the feeling we will be seeing more projects soon.

Think about it...Harrisburg has quite an advantage over other cities in the state. One thing that is killing Scranton and Philly right now is the wage tax, which Harrisburg does not have. Someone could correct me here, but I don't really think the business taxes are that much higher in Hbg compared to the suburbs, unlike Pittsburgh. Plus, Harrisburg has a ton of great restaurants/lunch spots and a decent enough retail scene for office workers. It's really a great place to work compared to some boring office park where your only option for lunch is McDonalds.

[Young Gun]

Originally Posted by danwxman

The Harrisburg region has a lot of large employers. Highmark and Rite Aid in East Pennsboro township employ hundreds of people (was announced today Highmark will be hiring 200!). The city should try to get these large employers in the suburbs to move into the city. There's still a few empty lots in downtown that could fit a mid-rise office building.

The office vacancy rate in the city is very low, maybe the lowest of any city in the state, which is pretty impressive. There is definitely a demand for more office space...I have the feeling we will be seeing more projects soon.

Think about it...Harrisburg has quite an advantage over other cities in the state. One thing that is killing Scranton and Philly right now is the wage tax, which Harrisburg does not have. Someone could correct me here, but I don't really think the business taxes are that much higher in Hbg compared to the suburbs, unlike Pittsburgh. Plus, Harrisburg has a ton of great restaurants/lunch spots and a decent enough retail scene for office workers. It's really a great place to work compared to some boring office park where your only option for lunch is McDonalds.

You are correct about the office vacancy rate. Being the state capital this will likely always be the case unless it gets overbuilt. Small offices are hardly ever empty due to lobbiest. Remember there is a new office building being constructed on MacClay and Cameron. Quite large. Harrisburg wage taxes are quite reasonable compared to the property taxes which I was refering to. Harrisburg has lots of spots to build nice buildings still. Cameron is a nice spot for buildings. In many places there is nothing there. RCR which is developing the Cameron property I believe is looking to invest more in the area.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by danwxman

But do you have any proof city council tried to tie up this project? No you don't. Try again.

LOL Okay, I'll dig up the articles for you one of these days. Heck, some are probably in this thread (although 81 pages is an awful lot to sift through just for you; I tried the search and it didn't work properly).

If you don't know why you are bothering, then don't...because your goal here is clearly just to bash the city more.

I don't bash, I simply speak the truth. Don't agree with that? Well the proof is in the pudding my friend, and just look around you...STILL no condo towers! STILL no really big residential projects...



I am not downplaying the city's other great accomplishments, just showing where it is severely lacking.

And if you don't think the city holds itself back, then you aren't paying much attention. One of the few cities I know of where the police had to be on site for many of the meetings right before I moved out of there not for the residents but for the COUNCIL MEMBERS who were assaulting each other during the meetings (and then later trying to sue each other). If you don't think that holds up progress, then I don't know what does...

[Xeelee]

Well the progress in this city is a good sign.

[Xeelee]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

And if you don't think the city holds itself back, then you aren't paying much attention. One of the few cities I know of where the police had to be on site for many of the meetings right before I moved out of there not for the residents but for the COUNCIL MEMBERS who were assaulting each other during the meetings (and then later trying to sue each other). If you don't think that holds up progress, then I don't know what does...

Assaulting e.other? :lol:

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by Xeelee

Assaulting e.other? :lol:

Yeah, and they had it all on tape too! Very dark (and embarrassing) times for the city during that period for sure...

[Evergrey]

This is from an article about how Pennsylvania's economic strategy of heavily subsidizing firms with tax incentives is failing:

"Missouri-based Bass Pro Shops Inc. was awarded $802,000 and promised 200 jobs at a new suburban Harrisburg store, but by July had hired only 101. The company said its store nevertheless has helped revive the beleaguered Harrisburg Mall."

I had no idea Bass Pro received such a subsidy... what a load of crap. Pennsylvania should be focusing on improving the business climate here... instead of wasting millions on subsidies. And a fishing rod store should never be lured here with close to a million dollars in subsidies.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt.../s_534898.html

[EastSideHBG]

While Bass Pro Shop is a nice store and I won't deny what it has done for the HBG Mall, it is a failure IMO when you look at the overall picture. From day one I had heard that it didn't do the business it was projected to do, and the last time I was in there it was totally dead.

The Harrisburg area is very shortsighted and what bugs me about it is people put all of their eggs in one basket; "This new Target will save us!"..."Bass Pro Shop will revitalize the mall!" One store is not going to have a huge impact on an area, and there needs to be a conjunction of items to really make an impact (and not stupid stores and restaurants you can already find A FEW BLOCKS AWAY, but that is a whole other matter).

[crs921]

The building of what is now 333 Market St.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

(and not stupid stores and restaurants you can already find A FEW BLOCKS AWAY, but that is a whole other matter).

There's multiple Bass Pros in HBG?

[danwxman]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

(and not stupid stores and restaurants you can already find A FEW BLOCKS AWAY, but that is a whole other matter).

Which is exactly why the Harrisburg Mall attracted Bass Pro, a Barnes & Noble (only one on the east shore) is currently building the most state-of-the-art theater in Central PA.

[crs921]

[Spudmrg]

Cabela's (55 miles away, Tilden Township, PA) is another case, so I would'nt blame this one on the midstate being shortsighted (which is another matter entirely).

Young Gun, which warehouses are they converting? I thought the entire area around market street and cameroon was in an active flood plane. That would make me think long and hard about moving in, federal flood insurance or not.